Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Chaman Man
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[edit] Shaman Man
- Reason
- I am fascinated with the beautiful costume, which is emboldened by the bright colours, and I think it illustrates the articles very well. The expression on the shaman's face is great too. The photo is high res. and technically flawless.
- Articles this image appears in
- Demography of Brazil, Shamanism, Indigenous peoples in Brazil
- Creator
- PICQ
- Support as nominator Kitkatcrazy (talk) 21:29, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. One potential problem I see at least as far as encyclopedic value is that there are hundred of indigenous groups in Brazil, and the only identification of him we have is that he is from the Amazon rainforest. Calliopejen1 (talk) 22:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- You're right, and unfortunately I do not have any further information at the moment. I have contacted the photo's contributor in the meantime :). Kitkatcrazy (talk) 23:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
- I'd suggest we suspend the nomination until we know whether we can or can't get more detail about it. Samsara noadmin (talk) 14:10, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. Just to get the ball rolling. The headdress is cutoff at the top and right, the necklaces are cutoff at the right and bottom - in other words poor composition or poorly cropped. What there is of the background is rather busy and modern looking, and the shirt the gentleman's wearing looks suspiciously modern as well, i.e., I'm not convinced that it gives a traditional 'feel' well at all. --jjron (talk) 08:37, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- weak support My only concern is with the composition problems. I don't want to get into a huge anthropological debate about this, but the apparently modern shirt the guy's wearing is no trouble for me - we don't wear bowler hats or codpieces (except when asked!) anymore, why should this guy still strut around half naked just because it might conform to our ideas of what "primitive" folks do? The guy has a dart through his nose; I don't think he's a poseur; let him wear what he wants. I can't give full support because of the cutoffs, but it's got great resolution and bright colours. Matt Deres (talk) 11:46, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sure, but with the setting I'm guessing this guy is dressed up in this gear as some part of an anthropological display or something (maybe someone can read what "chaman forêt amazonienne equatorienne" says since the image description isn't in English?). In other words, it seems to me that this would be like featuring someone dressed up in a suit of armour who's wearing a baseball cap - of course it wasn't taken 200yrs ago, but there's no reason the dress can't be authentic. --jjron (talk) 03:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- Loosely translated, it says "Shaman of the equatorial Amazon (rain) forest". Your analogy would be more apt if people ever wore baseball caps with suits of armor. My point was simply that the picture is not inauthentic just because this particular guy wears a shirt under his ceremonial attire. As a picture a modern day Amazon shaman, it's entirely appropriate and more encyclopedic than a similar picture of a fella who took his modern clothes off just for the picture. His "authentic dress" these days might well include that shirt. Matt Deres (talk) 00:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- What proof do we have this "a modern day Amazon shaman", any more than if I dressed in a suit of armour (with my baseball cap) and proclaimed myself "a modern day knight"? My point is that this is just as likely some guy dressed up for show. As I said above, the background suggests it's probably in some display or show of some sort. I think you're making allowances for this 'exotic' image that you wouldn't make for an image of a westerner. --jjron (talk) 07:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- What proof? Well, none, other than our general plan to assume good faith. On the other hand, I have reason to believe the image on a couple of grounds. First, if someone wanted to 'fake' it for a cultural fair or something, they'd tell the guy to lose the shirt to make it look more authentic for the touristas. Second, a guy who was out to 'fake' it likely would draw the line at having a dart shoved through his nose. To my mind, your last sentence is stated almost backwards. I'm assuming the picture is legit based on the fact that even exotic folks like this have adopted bits and pieces of western conveniences to suit their own needs. Let's bring it home a bit closer; if this was a Navajo guide and he was wearing a button shirt, would you also call that inauthentic because it didn't meet your expectations of what he should look like? Personally, I wouldn't want to be standing near you when you told this fella he didn't look the part. We're on the verge of soap-boxing here and the pic looks like it'll fail anyway, but feel free to continue the discussion on my talk page if you want. I'll close simply with this: I have a degree in anthropology and there's nothing in the image that screams "inauthentic" to me; quite the opposite in fact, but I'll admit my field of study was much further north than the Amazon. Matt Deres (talk) 17:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- The caption doesn't match the image description - the description itself is very vague and the photographer has not clarified where this was sourced, so it's not a matter of not 'assuming good faith', it's a matter of realistically evaluating the picture and information actually associated with it as presented. A dart through his nose - when every second emo kid has their nose pierced, I don't find this incredible. Look, I've seen many of those sorts of demonstrations, and it just strikes me to be one of them. That doesn't worry me, any more say than an animal shot taken in a zoo, what I dislike is that the modern aspects spoil the authentic look, like if you had an otherwise good animal shot, but with the animal wearing a big collar. The guy quite probably is native Brazilian, may even be a genuine shaman (for whatever that now means), but the look is spoiled. I similarly would oppose that Navajo photo you mentioned (forgetting about technical matters) because what's it telling me about Navajos other than they now dress like anyone else? I don't care that he's not wearing what they used to wear, but seeing their historical dress would be what is interesting and feature-worthy. Dressed like that, he's just another man. I must say I actually find it a little offensive that you imply I'm being racist for opposing this photo, but ultimately you're saying we should be featuring every group from around the world wearing their modern clothes, and I'm not really sure why, whether it's just for political correctness or what. --jjron (talk) 11:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- It was certainly not my intention to call you a racist or offend you; if I've done that, then I apologize. Strictly as an "in the future..." type thing, I'll tell you that comparing this guy to an animal in a zoo might not be the best metaphor if you want to make sure people understand your motivations. I've never said anything about featuring every group in the world in their modern clothes, but I will say this: I would much rather see the people as they actually dress today rather than gussied up in costumes they wouldn't otherwise wear. My support is strictly hinged on my opinion that this guy might actually dress like this during ceremonies, etc. that call for it. Matt Deres (talk) 12:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- The caption doesn't match the image description - the description itself is very vague and the photographer has not clarified where this was sourced, so it's not a matter of not 'assuming good faith', it's a matter of realistically evaluating the picture and information actually associated with it as presented. A dart through his nose - when every second emo kid has their nose pierced, I don't find this incredible. Look, I've seen many of those sorts of demonstrations, and it just strikes me to be one of them. That doesn't worry me, any more say than an animal shot taken in a zoo, what I dislike is that the modern aspects spoil the authentic look, like if you had an otherwise good animal shot, but with the animal wearing a big collar. The guy quite probably is native Brazilian, may even be a genuine shaman (for whatever that now means), but the look is spoiled. I similarly would oppose that Navajo photo you mentioned (forgetting about technical matters) because what's it telling me about Navajos other than they now dress like anyone else? I don't care that he's not wearing what they used to wear, but seeing their historical dress would be what is interesting and feature-worthy. Dressed like that, he's just another man. I must say I actually find it a little offensive that you imply I'm being racist for opposing this photo, but ultimately you're saying we should be featuring every group from around the world wearing their modern clothes, and I'm not really sure why, whether it's just for political correctness or what. --jjron (talk) 11:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- What proof? Well, none, other than our general plan to assume good faith. On the other hand, I have reason to believe the image on a couple of grounds. First, if someone wanted to 'fake' it for a cultural fair or something, they'd tell the guy to lose the shirt to make it look more authentic for the touristas. Second, a guy who was out to 'fake' it likely would draw the line at having a dart shoved through his nose. To my mind, your last sentence is stated almost backwards. I'm assuming the picture is legit based on the fact that even exotic folks like this have adopted bits and pieces of western conveniences to suit their own needs. Let's bring it home a bit closer; if this was a Navajo guide and he was wearing a button shirt, would you also call that inauthentic because it didn't meet your expectations of what he should look like? Personally, I wouldn't want to be standing near you when you told this fella he didn't look the part. We're on the verge of soap-boxing here and the pic looks like it'll fail anyway, but feel free to continue the discussion on my talk page if you want. I'll close simply with this: I have a degree in anthropology and there's nothing in the image that screams "inauthentic" to me; quite the opposite in fact, but I'll admit my field of study was much further north than the Amazon. Matt Deres (talk) 17:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- What proof do we have this "a modern day Amazon shaman", any more than if I dressed in a suit of armour (with my baseball cap) and proclaimed myself "a modern day knight"? My point is that this is just as likely some guy dressed up for show. As I said above, the background suggests it's probably in some display or show of some sort. I think you're making allowances for this 'exotic' image that you wouldn't make for an image of a westerner. --jjron (talk) 07:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
- Loosely translated, it says "Shaman of the equatorial Amazon (rain) forest". Your analogy would be more apt if people ever wore baseball caps with suits of armor. My point was simply that the picture is not inauthentic just because this particular guy wears a shirt under his ceremonial attire. As a picture a modern day Amazon shaman, it's entirely appropriate and more encyclopedic than a similar picture of a fella who took his modern clothes off just for the picture. His "authentic dress" these days might well include that shirt. Matt Deres (talk) 00:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
- Sure, but with the setting I'm guessing this guy is dressed up in this gear as some part of an anthropological display or something (maybe someone can read what "chaman forêt amazonienne equatorienne" says since the image description isn't in English?). In other words, it seems to me that this would be like featuring someone dressed up in a suit of armour who's wearing a baseball cap - of course it wasn't taken 200yrs ago, but there's no reason the dress can't be authentic. --jjron (talk) 03:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose per jjron. Indeed, bad composition hurts enc. --Janke | Talk 11:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Comment. The contributor has uploaded several more ethno-anthro photographs, all of them of high quality and probably eligible. I don't know if it was Kitkatcrazy's intention to gradually nominate several of them. If not, perhaps someone else might like to have a look. Samsara noadmin (talk) 12:33, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose per Jiron --H92110 (talk) 12:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Not promoted MER-C 02:14, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
