Wikipedia:Featured article review/Super Mario 64/archive2

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[edit] Super Mario 64

[edit] Review commentary

Messages left at Neutrality, Computer and video games, and Nintendo. Sandy (Talk) 15:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Previous FARs at Feb 06 FAR and July 06 FAR. Sandy (Talk) 15:47, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

This article was nominated over a year ago now, and when compared with other such articles like Perfect Dark, The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, or Half-Life 2 its certainly lacking in a number of areas. The development section - which should be one of the most important parts - is patchy and not very comprehensive. The course description is far too lengthy, I don’t think Wikipedia is supposed to be a game guide. There is also a profound lack of sources, in the introduction to the impact section, development, and in general. There is a large volume of good information about Mario 64 available on the internet and from other sources, and its disappointing that there are so few sources cited, and that much of the gameplay section is simply devoted to level and item lists.

There are also a number of weasel words here and there, particularly this one in the intro: “Super Mario 64 was considered so revolutionary that many consider to have set the standard for all later 3D platformer games and 3D games in general”. The source is from an author of a gamespot article, which does not represent the ‘many’ other voices out there. I hope that by raising these issues here the article might be improved, if not, then its FA status should be removed. Not the best game article, and certainly not the best of wikipedia IMO. Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo 05:04, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

• Comment The mission section seems to be a repeat of the storyline section. The article can probably be thinned out by making one story section and not including story in the gameplay section. Jay32183 05:18, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I will try to work on this article, which I feel can be easily fixed, but will state now that before I was prevented from removing the unencyclopedic course guide by another wikipedian, and feel that they will again prevent this form being done. Judgesurreal777 03:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Maybe invite the person into this discussion so it can be explained why the article can't be a "player's guide". Jay32183 05:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The course guide isn't inappropriately detailed. See WP:CVG -- it provides valuable context for the article. Additionally, there are certainly no weasel words. For some reason Super Mario 64 is often under fire for claiming that the game is revolutionary and a benchmark for other 3D games. It is widely considered to be such and this is fact beyond reasonable doubt. Certainly more references are always nice and we can get some. However, removing content is not the answer, and please let us debate the merits of any such removals before initiating them. SM64 has already been through a Featured Article Review and a Featured Article Removal vote and it survived both unscathed. Andre (talk) 20:54, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The course guide is very inappropriate compared with any other currently featured video game article. Most of the section on gameplay must be totally rewritten. Also, there are POV support statements in the intro praising the game with no references, too many game images in the "Course section" that are not needed, there are several uncited statements in the "impact" section. There is also a lack of comprehensiveness in the development section, and a strange section of quotes from people who have played Super Mario 64, but has little to do with its legacy. So you see, the article has to be improved significantly if it is to retain its status, and we should not kid ourselves about this pressing need. Judgesurreal777 21:27, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

No one's kidding anyone. I don't see the need for rewrite, nor are any statements POV or unsourced. We'll find more sources if we must. The level list is certainly not inappropriate. These issues have been raised in previous reviews, etc, and were determined not to be issues. Andre (talk) 22:15, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

It has been brought up as an issue in this review, therefore, it will be dealt with. A list of levels is not important to the understanding of the gameplay, the story, the developement, or the critical response. Knowing that, it is not important to the article at all since those are the details that are needed. Jay32183 01:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Judgesurreal, this article needs a lot of improvement if its to retain its status. These issues were not properly dealt with in the last reviews, and its good to see that they are now. I've added some bits to the development section in the past, and I'll see if I can do anything to get it up to the standard required. The impact/reception section seems more like a gushing session to me (some it is unsourced - and probably incorrect - too), and the gameplay section needs a solid rewrite with the game-guide stuff removed. If it does end up losing its status, it might not be such a bad thing, as it will give prople an incentive to improve it. Kingston Jr. 01:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The list of levels helps show how the game evolved from earlier Mario titles. I fail to see how this does not contribute to the understanding of the development of the game. Additionally, the concept of free-roaming worlds full of things to interact with, explore, and fight is crucial to the understanding of the gameplay, and the level list explains this. Besides, those aren't the only categories of information allowed in a video game article. Articles on computer and video games should give an encyclopedia overview of what the game is about, not a detailed description of how to play it. Descriptions of areas in the game are certainly in the nature of an overview. Please read the WP:CVG guidelines in full. This is not game guide content. Andre (talk) 01:42, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Please consult any of the recent Featured articles in video games, all such material of the individual levels has been cut from the Star Fox articles for a recent example and moved to Strategywiki. I think this article gets put up for Featured Article removal is no fluke, it is because of the above problems and because there is way to much information about the individual courses. Judgesurreal777 02:11, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Just because someone removed the details and nobody objected doesn't set a precedent. Besides, none of the Star Fox articles are featured articles, although some of them are pretty good. Andre (talk) 03:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Any changes I make to this article have been blocked, and from analyzing the last two FAR reviews, Andrevan has attempted to obstruct those as well. This article, as any other at featured status, should not have bulletted sections instead of prose, and my attempts to make it prose have been reverted. Judgesurreal777 03:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

For some reason you seem to think that just taking all the text from the bulleted list and putting it on one line means you've created prose. Not so! There's really no way to take a bunch of peripherally related individual facts and weave them into good prose unless you have some kind of guiding idea for the paragraph. I'd be glad to see someone take a crack at it, but your change to get rid of the list just created a barely readable mishmash of individual thoughts. Andre (talk) 03:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Hm. This does need some work to meet the FA standards. I notice a number of minor issues that need fixing:

• series and caption aren't implemented in the infobox for some reason.
• No sources for release dates, or rerelease dates.
• No source for the claim that Super Mario 64 is going to be released on the Wii Virtual Console.
• The sectioning in "Tasks, aids, and obstacles" is unnecessary and somewhat ugly.
• Missing fair-use rationales on some images.

And some major issues, ones I'd go to FARC over:

• The course list is excessive, recapping the story again and lending little encyclopedic understanding.
• The development section is lacking in sourcing; I see lots of historic claims standing completely unsourced.
• The reception section is also unsourced. If I didn't know anything about video games, how would I tell the superlative claims made here from fannish peacock prose?
• Too many fair-use images; I see five images of Mario standing in such-and-such environment. Ditching most of the course list will help with this.

This needs work. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:15, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Man in Black nailed it, but I want to reiterate that reception is usually the most heavily-sourced portion of the article. It establishes the game's notability and makes all kinds of judgments on its importances, strongpoints, and flaws. Getting sources is a trivial task; just go to Game Rankings and blaze through all their listed reviews. I did this with Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon yesterday and apart from a little copyediting, that article now has an all-star reception section. Source this first, as it will give you sources for other assertions in the article. --Zeality 20:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment: Agreed with A Man In Black: this article does need work. There are too many fair use images: although I encourage the inclusion of the manual image, only one image is needed to represent the game's "environment" and only a couple necessary to represent different concepts. The course list is NOT necessary; Andre, you would be better served taking into account the advice of everyone here and making changes where needed rather than trying to defend it as a very old featured article. This is Super Mario 64, the premier 3D platformer. This certainly should be in better shape than it is now.

If you can't find ANY sources, I'm sure that I can help. I can dig up Nintendo Power issues around and on the time of the Super Mario 64 release, and I have access to various databases for academic journals and magazines. Just tell me what you need, whether it's regarding development or reviews in the mainstream press, I'll do what I can. --Tristam 01:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment - I'd love to work on this article, if it weren't for the fact that Andrevan will revert any changes I make. Judgesurreal777 21:13, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Comment We're hoping to create improvement in this article and we're not trying to bash the work of previous editors. Tristam, if you have the means to fix up the developement and reception sections, then I say go for it, you can't hurt anything by adding information from more, good sources and properly crediting them. I'd also like to point out to Andrevan that attempting to argue against change in the article will not be what saves it, and reverting good faith efforts will not accomplish anything. Jay32183 22:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I've been making some big changes. It's not there yet, but I think it's a lot closer. A Man In Black, would you mind looking over the article again? I think you can strike out some of your objections above. Pagrashtak 04:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The gameplay section is a lot better. Good job with that. Jay32183 04:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Fine, it's clear that I'm outnumbered in my opinion of this article, so I'm going to step back and let other people deal with it. Andre (talk) 17:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, not completely, but I'm not going to revert the removal of the course list this time. Andre (talk) 17:19, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Well we don't want you to stop contributing. Your input is welcome, we just can't agree on everything, because that will almost never happen. Jay32183 18:31, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are comprehensiveness (1b), lack of sources (1c), POV (1d), and prose structure (2). Marskell 12:25, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Remove—The lead alone shows problems WRT 1a, 1c and 1d. Our articles must have a neutral, encyclopedic tone to gain authority, especially when describing commercial products.

• • "Super Mario 64 was considered so revolutionary that many consider to have set the standard for all later 3D platformer games and (perhaps overzealously) 3D games in general. Super Mario 64 was bundled with the N64 shortly after launch"—"so revolutionary" is puffery. Is "it" missing after "consider"? "Perhaps overzealously" sounds like POV intruding here; hyphen required, too.
  • "In going from two to three dimensions"—"going from" is too informal here, and you wonder whether the game itself moves between 2 and 3 D.
  • "It is acclaimed by critics as one of the greatest video games of all time.[8]" Is this more puffery? The reference is hardly authoritative (filibustercartoons.com).

If someone wants to do a fix-up job, fine: quite a lot of thoughtful work is required. Tony 14:59, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd help out, but I'm already getting the eyetwitches and it isn't even Black Friday yet o.O — Deckiller 01:32, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The "perhaps overzealously" was a recent addition which has been removed. However, as for the filibustercartoons reference, if you look you will see it is an aggregate reference that tallies known gaming publications. Andre (talk) 19:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

• Remove per Tony and sourcing. Sandy (Talk) 19:23, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
• Contest removal. It seems like this discussion was ended prematurely. Also, I think generally the lead section is fine -- encyclopedic and neutral. The issues are mainly nitpicking. Andre (talk)
  • Discussions generally aren't closed if good faith efforts to improve the article are being made. Jay32183 20:43, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
    • Oops, hadn't realized this discussion closed. Jay32183 20:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
• Remove. As per all above. This article isn't up to scratch, and needs to be rewritten and expanded before it will be.Kingston Jr. 07:04, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Oh wait, its already closed.Kingston Jr. 07:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)