Wikipedia:Featured article review/Sly & the Family Stone/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept 11:10, 15 February 2007.

[edit] Sly & the Family Stone

[edit] Review commentary

Messages left for FuriousFreddy, Music, and Bio. Jeffpw 09:27, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Criterion 1(c). The article is very poorly referenced, with only six footnotes in the entire article. ShadowHalo 08:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Needs more inline citations. Also, some weasly comments are made upon certain things which need citations also. LuciferMorgan 12:41, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• Comment Note that the article is referenced by the books listed, what this article is actually lacking is the level of inline citation we currently expect. No promises, but if someone can add {{citation needed}} to points that need an inline cite, I can give a shot at finding some. Jkelly 16:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
• Inline citations can be added if {{citation needed}} templates are added in requested places, as JKelly mentioned. The actual referencing is fine; this article was promoted to feature before the standard of having so many citation notes in each article (encyclopedias traditionally don't use citation notes; they use general references, as was done here). There are only six footnotes, but there are five whole articles, and an entire book in the references section. This essentially will amount to adding page number citations. --FuriousFreddy 17:53, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

  Oh, hi... I didn't realise you were about. That certainly makes everything much easier. Jkelly 18:12, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

"The Family Stone's first album, A Whole New Thing, was released in 1967 to critical acclaim but disappointing sales." What critics acclaimed the album, and what were the actual sales. Additionally, why were they deemed disappointing? LuciferMorgan 19:03, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

That sentence can be cited from the book in the references. I will add most of these citations within a few days (when I am at home with the book, and can pull page numbers); the rest, I can start on now. --FuriousFreddy 13:46, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Comment. I think the main problem of the article is lack of citations. There many assertions that without citations look weasel. The prose is not bad in general, although there are some samples of choppy and repetitive prose ("Relationships within the band were deteriorating; there was friction in particular between the Stone brothers and Larry Graham. Epic demanded more product. The Black Panther Party demanded that Sly make his music more militant and more reflective of the black power movement, and also demanded that Sly replace Greg Errico and Jerry Martini with black instrumentalists".)--Yannismarou 21:31, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

• I've gone through and added the {{fact}} tags (sorry, I confused it for {{citation needed}}). I may have been a little too generous in doing so, so whoever adds the citations should keep that in mind. ShadowHalo 06:48, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I've gone in and added most of the ref tags. Anything still tagged with {{fact}} is from the Oral history book, and I'll add those tags at home. --FuriousFreddy 11:27, 18 January 2007
    • I've added all necessary references. --FuriousFreddy 06:14, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
• Comments. Not sure if special characters should be used in section headings? (Post Grammy 2006/2007 ) Some web source refs are missing access dates. The ref format (listing the URL retrieved from rather than linking it via the article title) is strange. Many citations still needed - the first one I saw was Entering drug rehabilitation to fight his ten-year cocaine addiction ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Listing the full URL, without liking it to the article title, is correct APA style referencing. It comes in particularly handy when you have an article that originated in print, but you're using a web copy of it. I will check all web source dates. I have also gone ahead and modified the references to remove the full URL from plain view, as you found it strange. --FuriousFreddy 05:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

• Footnotes can be consolidated for readability with the use of named refs, and see the comment on The Tempations review for an abbreviated book footnote style. A source is needed for the Top 40 singles. There's a very long caption on the image in Discography, which also requires a citation - see Wikipedia:Captions regarding succinctness. There are examples of text which - in the absence of a cite - appear as opinion or original research (It was instead a somber, dark-sounding record, with Sly singing in a low, depressed tone.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Instead of being vague and general, I'm going to need you to be specific (reguarding "There are examples of text which - in the absence of a cite - appear as opinion or original research"). I have a full-time job, and far too much work to finish to even be attempting to fulfill these requests right now. Please place {{cite}} tags in places where you feel citations are needed. And I do not understand how to combine the tags; please explain this technique, or assist me in doing so. --FuriousFreddy 01:45, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
    • I'm sorry, but I can't continue this process, as it is proving detrimental to my work, my real-world responsibilities, and my livelihood. I'm sure any other issues with this article are minor to minuscule, so if someone else wants to help and fix them, they are welcome. I, however, am done. --FuriousFreddy 02:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
      • Sorry to hear that mate, but I commend you on making the decision to put your work, livelihood etc. first. LuciferMorgan 21:50, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concern is insufficient citations (1c). Marskell 07:47, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

• Remove Certain statements still need citation. LuciferMorgan 22:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • What specific "certain statements"? I went through this article twice, and cited everything I could think to cite. What is still outstanding? --FuriousFreddy 02:13, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"By this time, the Sly & the Family Stone fanbase had eroded, and the acts the band had inspired were now eclipsing them as important funk artists."

What proof is there their fanbase eroded? What acts did they allegedly inspire, and what proof is there they were eclipsing them as important funk artists? LuciferMorgan 21:06, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"Regardless of commercial success, both albums were highly influential across the music industry."

Proof? Who did these albums influence exactly? LuciferMorgan 21:08, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

"Even more pop-friendly than "Dance to the Music" had been, "Everyday People" was a protest against prejudices of all kinds, and popularized the catch phrase "different strokes for different folks"."

Pop-friendly? According to whom? Which music critics reckon this? Also, who reckons "Everyday People" is a protest? - this is lyrical interpretation, which unless comes from a critic or bandmember etc., is original research.

By the way, these are just examples. Best of luck in improving the article. LuciferMorgan 21:10, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The first line I removed, the second I revised and cited, and the third I cited. You say "these are just examples". So there's more? I can't do anything if I'm not getting specific directions as to what's wrong. I've already gone in and found everything I could find that seemed to need a citation. In short, I'm going to need you to list everything wrong with the article. You, or someone else, can add "citation needed" tags wherever you find a problem.

I feel that this featured article review process is being handled in a very hypocritical way. Time has been alloted to improve the FA aspects of Doctor Who and Doctor Who missing episodes without listing it for featured article review. Meanwhile, I receive no previous notification before a four-week ticking clock starts up (and there couldn't possibly have been a worse four weeks for it to start), when it's I and I alone who will have to deal with finding citations for these articles (not just because I did most of the writing in the first place, but because - let's be honest - most Wikipedians don't write about nor care about topics relating to African American culture). --FuriousFreddy 15:27, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

No hypocrisy: We allow time to anyone who requests it; you specifically indicated above that you weren't going to be working on the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:57, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm talking about the fact that it was listed here in the first place, as LuciferMorgan grasps below. --FuriousFreddy 22:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, hold-up: Freddy has worked on the article. Work itself qualifies as a request for more time. So don't worry. The article is well on its way, and we often hit snooze on the ticking clock. Marskell 20:33, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'll add cite needed tags to whatever statements need citation for you, which I hope helps. Also, as Sandy said, you indicated you have no further time to help with the article. As concerns time being allocated to improve Doctor Who and Doctor Who missing episodes, this isn't actually correct - if someone nominates them for FAR, they are subject to the same procedures. They aren't exempt or anything - if you nominated them right here, right now, then here they'd be for example. We cannot control who nominates what for FAR as such, but advise people not to nominate certain articles. LuciferMorgan 22:28, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. That's all I ask. --FuriousFreddy 22:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

At least two of the taged sentences are cited in the sentence following, becuase two or more sentences are used to tell a certain anecdote. For example:

Later that year, the tension between Sly Stone and Larry Graham came to a head. A post-concert brawl broke out between Graham's entourage and Sly's entourage; Bubba Banks and Eddie Chin, having heard that Larry had hired a hit man to kill Sly, assaulted Graham's associates. Graham and his wife climbed out of a hotel window to escape with their lives, and Pat Rizzo gave them a ride to safety.

This story is related, in explicit violent detail, on pages 150 through 155 of the For the Record book, meaning all three sentences are referenced fro mthe same source. However, the second sentence is tagged, while the third concludes the story and was already cited. Nevertheless, I went ahead and cited both anyways. --FuriousFreddy 23:52, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Alright sounds great. One thing; notes two and four need specific page numbers. Also, you don't need to quote the whole book name when citing a page. You can write;

Selvin, Joel (1998), p. 20. LuciferMorgan 02:26, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Freddy, if you'd like, I can do the work of shortening the book refs for you - it will make the rest of your work easier. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:22, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

That would be much appreciated, as I see I have more cites to add. Thanks. --FuriousFreddy 03:21, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll get on that after morning coffee. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:48, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Done; Freddy, here are the changes for your review. You should be able to follow suit now on adding book sources, using the format set up, giving the new page numbers. I noticed some WP:MOS issues to be on the lookout for: use a consistent date format, don't link solo years, link all full dates, [1] and watch out for the different uses of hyphens, en-dashes, and em-dashes. [2] Let us know if you need further input. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:11, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

• Comment, I can see that work is happening on cites; there is a few too many fair use images, none of which have the appropriate source and fair use rationale on their images pages.--Peta 00:21, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed the two images I felt were extraneous to the text (a second screencap from the Grammy show, and the photo of Sly holding the Family Stone in his hand, which used to be the "infobox" pic until I found the clear promo photo where everyone is the same size). The other photos are directly related to the text they surround; and the Nirvana (band) article includes a logo image. If there are any photos that you feel are truly extraneous to the text (keeping in mind that you're not going to find a free use image of the original Sly &the Family Stone), please be specific and list them. All rationales have been added, except for the Dance to the Music image, which already had one. --FuriousFreddy 15:11, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

• Status? How is work on the referencing proceeding? Can someone pitch in to help with a copyedit? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I've finished adding all of the citations. What needs to be copyedited? --FuriousFreddy 03:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
    • I haven't read the entire article, but I noticed some things in the lead which might indicate it could be helpful to have an independent run-through; if you don't mind dropping him a note Deckiller (talk · contribs) has been helpful lately. In the lead, I noticed, for example:
      • Brothers Sly Stone and singer/guitarist Freddie Stone had combined their bands (Sly & the Stoners and Freddie & the Stone Souls) in 1967. As a result, the two brothers were joined by trumpeter Cynthia Robinson, and drummer Gregg Errico. Saxophonist Jerry Martini and bassist Larry Graham completed the original lineup, and within a year, Sly and Freddie's sister, singer/keyboardist Rose Stone, joined as well. This collective were a major influence on the sound of American pop music in general and soul, R&B, funk, and later hip hop music in particular, recording five Top 10 hits and four groundbreaking albums.
        • The "as a result" doesn't follow logically, nor does "this collective were". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
          • Corrected.--FuriousFreddy 23:01, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

mainpage date Feb 18; can we ask Deckiller or someone to run through it, so we can close the FAR ? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:45, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

• Keep. Pre-review version and work completed during review. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
• I have no objections to register as concerns the article retaining FA status. LuciferMorgan 17:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
• Conditional keep - I'll finish the runthrough tonight; it looks quite good. Hopefully once I'm done we can archive this FAR. — Deckiller 21:15, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Before we remove the FAR, I'd like to give it a second pass. A lot of the issues are technical, such as excessive wikilinks and dash problems. — Deckiller 02:09, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
• I think it's pretty good now, at least to the point where we can remove the FAR(C). — Deckiller 10:44, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.