Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Verity Lambert/archive1

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[edit] Verity Lambert

Self-nomination. I've done a lot of work bringing the standard of this article up recently and am quite pleased with the result, so I thought I'd give it a shot. It spent a week on peer review here, but attracted only one feedback response, which I feel I have adequately responded to. I also posted asking for comment at two relevant WikiProjects, Wikipedia:WikiProject Doctor Who and Wikipedia:WikiProject Television, getting only one comment, which was positive. Angmering 06:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support, well referenced, and a good read. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 13:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support, lots of references, quite lengthy while not being overly boring, and plenty of pictures. --Thelb⁴ 19:01, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Could do with a few stylistic tweaks, but very very minor ones; as it stands, it holds up to any other FA here. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 22:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Holds up to all the FA criteria, and an interesting read. --Brian Olsen 17:10, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Object. Needs a serious and thorough copy edit, top to bottom. Here are just a few examples of the problems throughout the article: (Switching to Object, as there has been no copy edit. Copyedit needs are extensive. Sandy 12:36, 29 September 2006 (UTC) )
  • A weasle word (perhaps) in the lead doesn't set a good encyclopedic tone; perhaps you can find a way to reword the lead to avoid the weasle word?
  • "In a television career spanning from the mid-1950s to the 2000s" from is redundant.
  • worked for ... as well as running ... switches tenses.
  • An example of awkward prose, which is found throughout: "Born in London, Lambert was educated at Roedean School, which she left at the age of sixteen and then studied for a year at the Sorbonne in Paris, followed by eighteen months at a secretarial college in London.[4]" "Her first job was typing menus at the Kensington De Vere Hotel, who employed her because she had been to France and could speak French.[4]" (The hotel is a who?) "She entered the television industry in 1956 when she joined Granada Television as a secretary working in the company's press office, where she was sacked after six months.[4]" (entered when she joined?)
• I stopped at that point: please enlist a good copyeditor to run through the entire article and polish the prose. It might help to have a look at Tony's copyedit exercises at the bottom of the WP:WIAFA page. Sandy 17:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

• Object. Prose related problems aplenty in the article. Here are few more...
  • "Perhaps her best known work is as the initial producer of the science-fiction series Doctor Who for the BBC, from 1963 to 1965." The use of "as" after "is" makes the sentence look like it is missing a predicate (the sentence not telling what she did as a producer of Doctor Who that made her famous) with the predicate being absorbed as additional information (qualifier) of the noun. A better sentence structure would be "She is best known for...."
  • "In a television career spanning from the mid-1950s to the 2000s, Lambert has worked for Associated British Corporation, the BBC, London Weekend Television, Thames Television and Euston Films, as well as for Thorn EMI Screen Entertainment in the film industry and running her own production company, Cinema Verity." Too long, winding prose. Consider breaking up.
  • "(He did not die on camera, but rather off-stage just prior to a scene in which he was to appear)." The sentence is good enough to be placed outside braces.
  • "Newman had specifically recruited her to produce a new educational science-fiction adventure serial for children which he had personally initiated the creation of: the serial was called Doctor Who." Awkward prose. Should be re-written without colons.
• Apart from these there are more problems which I summarize below.
  • The dates need to be wikilinked. I have edited one as a sample.
  • Dashes for number ranges in references don't follow WP:DASH.
  • The article seems to have too many weasel words (guarding terms, discounting terms, etc). — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 18:30, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment. This is a bit of a gestalt reply to the last two objections, I'm afraid — I don't mean to seem rude but you both seemed to object along similar lines so one response to you both seemed easiest. Thank you for all of your comments — I have now gone through and done a copy-edit of the article and tried to act on your criticisms and suggestions as best I can. Please do let me know if I have missed things / not done enough, etc. (Incidentally, I'm pretty sure British English allows a hotel to be a who when talking about it as an employer rather than an actual building, but for the sake of clarity I've changed it). Angmering 17:27, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Just additionally adding that User:Josiah Rowe has agreed to also have a go at copyediting the article, although as he's busy at the moment he'll be unable to do so until Tuesday at the earliest — I hope it's okay to keep the FAC open until then. Angmering 10:38, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I've done one copyediting pass, smoothing out some of the clunkier sentences. The article might benefit from another pass by a more experienced copyeditor, but I think it has been improved. I'd be interested to see whether Ambuj and Sandy's concerns have been addressed. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 19:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Back for second look:

• "Lambert was a pioneer woman in British television — when she was appointed to Doctor Who in 1963, she was the youngest and only female drama producer working at the BBC.[1]" I'd prefer a semi-colon in place of the dash, but that may be just style. The dash suggests (to me) something parenthetical, or an aside, rather than a continuation of the same thought. This is not an objection, rather a question/style issue.
• "Lambert began working in television in the 1950s, and as of 2006 continues to work as a producer. After leaving the BBC in 1969, Lambert worked for several other television companies, most notably Thames Television and Euston Films in the 1970s and 80s." Could you replace the second "Lambert" with a "she"?
• "The British Film Institute's Screenonline reference website describes Lambert as ... " What makes it a "reference" website?
• "She was sacked from this job after six months." Why? Left me hanging. The next sentence says, "After leaving Granada, ... " which seems to contradict that she was fired.
• "She then moved from the administrative to the production side of television, working on drama programming for ABC, particularly on the popular anthology series Armchair Theatre." We don't get a sense of how she moved from being a fired secretary to working in production. Why "particularly"? Can't it be something like, "She then moved from administration to production, working on drama programming for ABC's popular anthology series, Armchair Theatre."
• "On November 28, 1958, Lambert was working as a production assistant on Armchair Theatre when actor Gareth Jones died during a live television broadcast of the hour-long play "Underground". Jones did not die on camera, but rather off-stage just prior to a scene in which he was to appear." The next sentence tells us why we need to know he died off camera, but at the point we encounter this sentence, it's a mystery why we're being given this information. Maybe doing it this way would help:
  • On November 28, 1958, while Lambert was working as a production assistant on Armchair Theatre, actor Gareth Jones died off-stage just prior to his scene during a live television broadcast of the hour-long play "Underground".
• "Although Newman had already offered the producership of Doctor Who to both Don Taylor[8] and Shaun Sutton,[9] both of whom had declined the offer, he was very keen to ensure that Lambert took the position after his experience of working with her at ABC." Can be simplified:
  • Don Taylor and Shaun Sutton had both declined to produce Doctor Who, and after his experience working with her at ABC, Newman was keen to ensure that Lambert took the position.

I'm still getting tangled up in some of the prose, and would feel better if you had another good copyedit, from a fresh set of eyes. Sandy 22:57, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll have a go later on today at implementing your suggestions, and finding another user to give it another copyedit. Angmering 06:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I have now implemented or adapted most of the specific recommendations you stated above. I have also asked another user, User:BillyH, to bring "a fresh set of eyes" to the article, as you suggested. He has taken a look, and in his edit summary said that he "Couldn't find anything that needed changing except for a few spelling errors." Angmering 23:09, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

• Third look: the prose is still very difficult. Random samples:
  • The Naked Civil Servant won a British Academy Television Award (BAFTA) for its star John Hurt as well as a Broadcasting Press Guild Award and a prize at the Prix Italia;[14] Rock Follies won a BAFTA and a Royal Television Society Award,[15] while Widows also gained BAFTA nominations and ratings of over 12 million — unusually for a drama serial, it picked up viewers over the course of its six-week run.
  • The long development period of Adam Adamant delayed its production, and during this delay Newman gave her the initial episodes of a new soap opera, The Newcomers, to produce.
  • Subsequent, subsequently, however, however: Lambert's relationship with Bleasdale was not entirely smooth, however — the writer has admitted in subsequent interviews that he "wanted to kill Verity Lambert"[19] after she insisted on the cutting of large portions of his first draft script before production began. However, Bleasdale subsequently admitted that she was right about the majority of the cut material, and when the production was finished he only missed one small scene from those she had demanded be excised.
• I hope you can locate a copyeditor who is able to smooth out and polish the prose throughout. Sandy 18:49, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Given that two users have already gone through the article at my request and it still doesn't satisfy your concerns, can you suggest a user who might be able to have a look? Angmering 19:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

• Support--Jamdav86 12:39, 30 September 2006 (UTC)