Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Today (Smashing Pumpkins song)

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 04:55, 3 September 2007.

[edit] Today (Smashing Pumpkins song)

Self nomination. A 1993 song by the popular alternative rock act, The Smashing Pumpkins. It is currently a good article and has been peer reviewed. I, along with a few other helpful editors along the way, have been working on this article on-and-off for quite a while now and almost nominated it earlier, but now I think that it's finally ready for the FAC process. --Brandt Luke Zorn 04:36, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

  • Thanks for your support, Wesley! --Brandt Luke Zorn 21:48, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I am consistently impressed with Wikipedia's coverage of the Smashing Pumpkins, and this article continues that trend. However, I do have a few issues with it: Some of the language used is sneakily POV. Examples are below:

  • "It is now regarded as one of the defining songs of its generation." In the lead. Just because it is sourced doesn't mean you should make such a broad statement. Like the other instance of a similar sentence further down in the article, I'd mention who said that and quote directly.
  • "Sly irony" what's so sly about it? Who says?
  • Y Done removed the word "sly" from the sentence. --Brandt Luke Zorn 21:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • " "Today" and its follow-up "Disarm" are credited for breaking the band into the mainstream." Who says? Who credited those songs? Same thing with "one of the songs that brought the Pumpkins into the mainstream."
  • ""Today" is considered one of the Smashing Pumpkins' most critically acclaimed songs." Who considers it this?
  • Y Done reworded the sentence to ""Today" has received generally positive reviews." --Brandt Luke Zorn 21:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, some unreferenced statements:

  • "Triclops Sound Studios"
  • "This video is available on the Smashing Pumpkins' Greatest Hits DVD. However, it is not available on The Work of Director Stéphane Sednaoui, a DVD that compiles many music videos of Sednaoui."
  • The DVDs themselves are the sources. WesleyDodds 05:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Fair enough. Drewcifer 06:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Other issues:

  • "The dark, ironic lyrics of "Today" contrast with the instrumentation.[10] The song describes a day when Billy Corgan was feeling depressed and suicidal.[10]" Two short, choppy sentences with the same citations that could easily be merged into one decent sentence.
  • ""Today" is one of the Siamese Dream songs where Corgan took over..." The way it is worded makes it sound like we already knew that Corgan took over once and a while.
  • Actually, it is previously mentioned in the "Song history" section: "he recorded most of the guitar and bass guitar parts himself, including on the finished version of "Today"." --Brandt Luke Zorn 01:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok fair enough. Though I still think it is worded a little awkwardly and could be improved. Drewcifer 03:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Typo in the second sentence of Other releases. Two "on"'s.
  • If possible, I'd recommend expanding upon the Brett Hickman quote. That sounds interesting.
  • I think the cover versions should be relegated to a subsection of the Other releases section, since the section heading makes it sound like they are official releases from the band itself.
  • "making-out"? Seriously? Unencyclopedic tone if I ever saw it.
  • Y Done Substituted "making out" with "passionately caressing and kissing each other". If this still doesn't sound encyclopedic, let me know. --Brandt Luke Zorn 21:07, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Better, though I'd recommend just saying "kissing." Drewcifer 03:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Does gas station need to be wikilinked?
  • Shouldn't Rotten Apples in the Reception section be wikilinked?
  • Y Done I also removed the Rotten Apples link in the "Other releases" section. --Brandt Luke Zorn 20:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • The "All information taken from All Music Guide.[35][36]" thing seems completely unnecessary in that section. That stuff can be found in the liner notes and is pretty common knowledge (Billy, D'arcy, Jimmy, James, and Butch Vig, no duh), so I don't think you need to source that.
  • You should wikilink the date attribute in the citation templates. ie [[2005-08-12]] That way it will be linked and conform to user preferences.
  • Also, the publisher attribute should also be wikilinked where neccessary. ie [[Blender (magazine)|Blender]], [[All Music Guide]], [[Billboard (magazine)|Billboard]], etc
  • Y Done Sorry that I missed that. --Brandt Luke Zorn 06:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
  • I don't think Act4.net is a reliable source. (refernce #32)
  • I'm pretty sure that Act4.net is the official site of that series of tribute albums. --Brandt Luke Zorn 20:58, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok, upon a closer look I think you're right. Nevermind on that one.

Hopefully the above list doesn't seem insurmountable. Let me know if you have any questions or concerns. Drewcifer 06:34, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Unless I missed something, I believe that all of your concerns have been addressed. If you feel anything else needs fixing, just let me know. --Brandt Luke Zorn 05:49, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

It looks like you missed the second to last bullet point (about wikilinking the publisher attribute), so I'll just assume you'll get to that when you get a chance. Other than that last little detail, I'd say everything looks great:
Support Drewcifer 06:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the thorough review and your support! --Brandt Luke Zorn 06:57, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Comment Here are a few nitpicks.

  • "Corgan picks up a cross-dressing James Iha and the two drive for a while before stopping at a gas station. Jimmy Chamberlin and D'arcy Wretzky are the gas attendants." Is it necessary to refer to the latter three by their full, rather than last names after they've already been fully introduced in the article? Wikipedia guidelines usually advise against this, except during exceptional circumstances.
  • "However, it is not available on The Work of Director Stéphane Sednaoui, a DVD that compiles many music videos of Sednaoui." Is it noteworthy to say where the video is not available?
  • I think saying that "Today" is not available on a particular DVD is, in this case, noteworthy because it's a notable omission from a collection that encompasses what are considered to be the music video director's most important works. --Brandt Luke Zorn 01:37, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • That's fair and valid—but not totally relevant to the scope of this article. I think it would be a great piece of info for the DVD's article. But we're here to address this article. Furthermore, however much we both agree with it, it's an opinion that this is one of the director's important works. Obviously someone else didn't think so and left it off the compilation. You could cite an opinion affirming it's importance, and neutralize its somewhat POV nature; but then you'd have citation that backs up a fact that, within the scope of the article, really isn't worth saying. Removing this statement won't harm this article at all, so it's my suggestion that you do that. Grim-Gym 05:11, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Y Done Fair enough - I don't want any POV issues in this article, even subtle ones. The sentence has been removed. --Brandt Luke Zorn 05:39, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
That's all I have to say. You've made it easy for me. Grim-Gym 01:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Support This article is quite impressive in multiple facets, and deserves to be featured. Grim-Gym 05:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.