Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Thich Quang Duc

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 16:28, 18 November 2007.

[edit] Thich Quang Duc

This article is about the Buddhist monk who burned himself to death in South Vietnam in response to religious discrimination of Ngo Dinh Diem, the pictures of which became highly symbolic and iconic across the world. Malcolm Browne and David Halberstam won Pulitzer Prizes for their reporting of the even. This article discusses the life of Thich Quang Duc, religious background of 1960s South Vietnam, and the political, religious, media and cultural impact of the self-immolation. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Support Comments
  1. Over a dozen redlinks, which I found rather distracting.
    Note; there is nothing wrong with redlinks, nor is their removal required for FA status. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:37, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  2. He returned in later life to open the Thien Loc Pagoda at the site of his hermitage.[3] This made me stumble. By hermitage, do you mean "where he was a hermit" or "the building in which he lived while a hermit"? --ROGER DAVIES TALK 12:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
You have. Good piece, very informative. --ROGER DAVIES TALK 04:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - an iconic moment and a fine article (I have given it a few minor copyediting tweaks). -- !! ?? 20:22, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Support, although I fear we are developing a Vietnam FA systematic bias :) In all seriousness, a couple of things:-
    • In the infobox, the Date of birth cell is not vertically aligned properly. Although this isn't article-specific, may be worth fixing.
    • [[prostrate]d
    • Do we link individual dates like June 16, May 22 etc.? I'm not sure :|
Daniel 06:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • The second point is fixed. The first point, don't know why it is the way it is, the code is the same as other implementations of the box. Dates, apparently so. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I'll have a look. Daniel 06:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Support, good article with excellent content. However, I need some clarifications:
    • The lead section, why is it "Hòa thượng Thích Quảng Ðức"? "Hòa thượng" in Vietnamese means "Buddhist monk" which is also introduced later in the same sentence. So what's your point in using two languages to indicate one meaning?
    • The note: Hòa thượng means "Most Venerable" in Vietnamese? Hòa thượng may be considered the most venerable people but the word itself, imo, doesn't mean that. I highly doubt the accuracy of this definition.

@pple complain 09:04, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Hoa thuong is definitely "most venerable" - see the correspondence here [1]. English temple profile [2] uses "Most Venerable" - also see this [3] - "Venerable" <-> "Thuong toa" aand [4] - "Dai Duc" <-> "Reverend". These are ranks of monks: Hoa thuong > Thuong Toa > Dai Duc. "Thi/ch" is equivalent to "ty\ kheo" which is a prefix which denotes a fully ordained monk (bhikkhu). If a person is a novice monk then the prefix is "sa di" (samanera). Blnguyen (bananabucket) 09:15, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Leaning towards support A clear, concise, and interesting article. I have a few picky questions and clarifications before I support:
    • Thich Quang Duc was protesting the persecution of Buddhism - "persecution of Buddhism" or "persecution of Buddhists"? aren't people usually persecuted?
    • Thich Quang Duc's act increased international pressure on Diem and led him to announce reforms with the intention of mollifying the Buddhists. However, the delayed implementation of the reforms saw the situation deteriorate. - I feel like these sentences are a bit wordy.
    • The language of "worldly name" and "religious name" in the "Biography" section should be explained or changed. It sounds a bit POV. Also, why are these names in bold?
  • Noramlly I would put only the lead in bold (for a normal person), but since he changed his name, and then took a religious name, I felt it appropriate to rebold the first instance of each of his name in the main body to remind the reader. In Buddhism, people who become monks are given a religious name, because they are no longer referred to by their given name like "Michael" or "Bob" or whatever. That is why I have made the distinction here. It can't be classed as a title because it is not a rank or a post. Do feel free to change to a more suitable one, I can't really think of one at the moment. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Ah, yes, I see about the bolding - that is fine. What about the phrases "worldly name" and "religious name"? Are these common? They struck me as a bit odd. Awadewit | talk 08:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I've just eliminated the wordly name because people will assume that it is a secular name unless mentioned. When he becomes a monk I changed it to dharma name, with a wikilink and article. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I think this is more informative. Awadewit | talk 04:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
    • In 1934, he moved his activities into southern Vietnam and traveled throughout all the provinces of the southern region. - This sounds slightly sinister.
    • Although Diem's decline and downfall had already begun, the self-immolation is universally seen as the pivotal point in the Buddhist crisis. - "universally"? That is usually a hard claim to prove.
  • *Ending with South Park seems to detract from the seriousness of the article a bit.
  • I'm not sure how to change this. It is not in a specific "pop culture" section, but is only there to note that the event is remembered in comtemporary society. I can prune the details if necessary. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:47, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  • If we have to retain it, it seems a shame to end the article with it. Isn't there something more solemn we could end with? Awadewit | talk 08:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Yeah, I moved the southpark into the media influence section, which is the second to last section. It's more appropriate there since the last section was about real self-immolations. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:47, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I think this is better. Awadewit | talk 04:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Tucker, Spencer C. (2000), "NOT SPECIFIED", Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War, Santa Barbara: ABC-CLIO, ISBN 1-57607-040-0 - Something funky here
    • Last footnote for South Park doesn't show anything but "2000" for me.
    • Any possible images for the last two sections?

Reading Blnguyen's series on the Vietnam conflict has certainly taught me a lot - thanks! This a solidly-researched and well-written article. Nice work. Awadewit | talk 06:07, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

  • I am happy to support. Awadewit | talk 04:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. Image:Thich_quang_duc_heart.gif has a clearly invalid reason for an image to be PD. This needs to be removed or a fair use rationale added (which might be hard, considering one of the nonfree criteria is that we know the author of the image). Is this still on display anywhere? Calliopejen1 18:22, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Image:Thich Quang Duc.png is likewise not free. Calliopejen1 18:23, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - I did put FU tags on them, and it is sourced, as in, it is on display on websites. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:02, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Note to Raul654 - Calliopejen is currently on exam break and is unable to attend to his concern, but I believe I have done what he asked for. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 23:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • This is an interesting article Blnguyen. I echo Awadewit's comments and find that the lead could be better organized, starting with the general and the more intrinsic biographical details, then hitting some of the specifics. The sentence about the journalists in the first paragraph seems to come too soon, and the transition between lead sentences here—"However, the delayed implementation of the reforms saw the situation deteriorate. Thich Quang Duc's heart remained intact after his cremation,..."—is rather jarring. –Outriggr § 00:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I rearranged the part about the cremation, so that the religious parts are away from the more poltiical stuff. Secondly, I deliberately omitted the biographical details because he is not known for his achievements as a Buddhist teacher, but for his self-sacrifice. The part about his life as a monk is only covered by Buddhist sources and is not covered by the wider studies of Thich Quang Duc, so to put him in the lead would give undue weight I think. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
  • The heart sentence still sticks out (for me, anyway). It just doesn't fit yet. Awadewit | talk 08:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Here is my suggestion for a re-ordering of the lead material. I realize it sacrifices a strict chronological ordering... Implement it only if you (or others) think it's an improvement, not because I'm a FAC commenter:–Outriggr § 00:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
[the basics] Hòa thượng Thích Quảng Ðức (help·info)[a] (IPA: [tʰic wɐːŋ dɨk]; (born Lâm Văn Tức in 1897 – died June 11, 1963) was a Vietnamese Mahayana Buddhist monk who burned himself to death at a busy Saigon road intersection on June 11, 1963. Thich Quang Duc was protesting the persecution of Buddhists by South Vietnam's Ngo Dinh Diem administration. His self-immolation is widely seen as the turning point of the Vietnamese Buddhist crisis, which ("eventually"?) led to regime change.
[political context/fallout] Thich Quang Duc's act increased international pressure on Diem and led him to announce reforms with the intention of mollifying the Buddhists. However, the promised reforms were implemented either slowly or not at all, leading to a deterioration in the dispute. With protests continuing, the Special Forces loyal to Diem's brother Ngo Dinh Nhu launched nationwide raids on Buddhist pagodas, seizing the holy heart and causing deaths and widespread damage. Several Buddhist monks followed Thich Quang Duc's example and burned themselves to death. Eventually, an Army coup toppled and killed Diem in November.
[legacy] Photos of Thich Quang Duc's self-immolation were circulated widely across the world and brought attention to the policies of the Diem regime. Malcolm Browne won a Pulitzer Prize for his iconic photo of the monk's death, as did David Halberstam for his written account. After his death, Thich Quang Duc's body was re-cremated, but his heart remained intact. This was interpreted as a symbol of compassion and led Buddhists to revere him as a bodhisattva, heightening the impact of his death on the public psyche.
  • Support - A well researched article on a figure that really represents the religious conflicts in Vietnam during the 1960's.Bakaman 20:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Support very well done Arbeit Sockenpuppe 00:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
  • comment It would be helpful if each of the fact assertions in this sentence could be given citations: "Catholics were also de facto exempt from the corvée labor that the government obliged all citizens to perform, and U.S. aid was disproportionately distributed to Catholic majority villages by Diem's regime" Hmains 04:07, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • If something covers a range of things in the para, I put it at the end. In this case, I duplicated it for you. In those paras where there is only on ref, all of it came from the given book pages.Blnguyen (bananabucket) —Preceding unsigned comment added by YellowAssessmentMonkey (talk • contribs) 04:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support well written, article about this individual and those turbulent times.--Sandahl 06:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - Very well written, well sourced and comprehensive. Meets all the FA criteria. Thanks, - KNM Talk 04:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Shouldn't Self-Immolation be the heading for "Funeral and aftermath", "Intact heart and symbolism", "Diem reaction", "Political and media impact", and "Precedents and influence"?--Dwarf Kirlston 19:25, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.