Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sun Yat-sen/archive1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[edit] Sun Yat-sen

As the collaborated result of wikipedians all around the world, Sun Yat-sen went through PR and copyright identification, this article is well-written, suits much of the FAS and has lots of picture. Therefore, I'm now nominating it to FAC here. Any comments and criticism are welcome. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 06:52:23, 2005-09-04 (UTC)

  • Support, as the nominator. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 09:07:37, 2005-09-04 (UTC)

  • Support. --Shinjiman ⇔ ♨ 10:38, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support, Borisblue 13:49, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Hmm...just to speak from a Singaporean viewpoint, I do wonder why the entire article makes practically no mention about his work amongst the Overseas Chinese around the world.--Huaiwei 09:26, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's because the article is done nearly completely by people from PRC (HK MO inc.), so add those details into it if you see fit, thanks. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 09:28:51, 2005-09-04 (UTC)

Ok. Pity I didnt note this earlier, especially during the RFC phase. Anyway, there is a memorial hall dedicated to him in Singapore, which has since been gazetted as a national monument, and the hall's official site [1] does contain quite alot of info on his legacy and his work in Singapore and Malaysia. If I were to add this info, however, it would probably cause the amount of content to be geographically lopsided. What do you think of this matter?--Huaiwei 09:34, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Place a support vote, and add a section about Sun legacy to Singapore about the size of Sun's posthumous popularity on Mainland section if you find suitable. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 09:36:32, 2005-09-04 (UTC)

Will try to add the information tomorrow or the day after as I need to scram now. ;) --Huaiwei 09:39, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Thanks, hope you'll support after you give your own efforts into the article. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 09:57:01, 2005-09-04 (UTC)

The wanqingyuan stuff is in the references, I used it for its biography. The stuff about the overseas chinese didn't seem that significant, so I didn't put it in. He had supporters in Nanyang, that's all. (I'm Malaysian btw)Borisblue 13:43, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
But I think we should at least mention the hall. Can a singaporean hop over there and take a GFDL photo of it?Borisblue 13:48, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Huaiwei should be able to do that. Singapore, in my knowledge, is smaller than Hong Kong. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 14:43:28, 2005-09-04 (UTC)

I will try my best to snap that photo, although it can be difficult to fit it into my schedule (despite the small overall physical size of Singapore, its urbanised area is still much bigger than HK's. :D) for the next few days. I will work on the article only when I have a few hours to spare for this site about 15 hours or more from now, so I do beg your pardon in this delay.--Huaiwei 01:25, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Are we getting into a 'my country is bigger than your country' argument now? Well, Malaysia trumps both HK and Singapore in terms of physical size and urbanized area :) Borisblue 03:03, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
It's stupid for anybody to talk about urbanised area to respond. When somebody is talking about the physical size of a certain area, she/he's probably meaning it doesn't take long to get from one place to another within that area. (If it's more urbanised I guess it's gonna be even more convenient to do so ;-) ) — Instantnood 08:35, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
Well, that was just a casual remark in response to the assumption that I could get to that site as easily as implied. I would think it is just as "stupid" for anybody to read too much into it. ;) --Huaiwei 15:19, 5 September 2005 (UTC)

I managed to add the info moments earlier. Please look through it and improve on it. In particular, it lacks much information beyond Singapore, and I am left wondering just how big was his following in Malaysia in particular. I would not be too surprised if there are memorials to commemorate him in other countries too? Whatever the case, take it that my vote of support is there! :D--Huaiwei 20:44, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

Well, Malaysia didn't exist before 1963, so I'm changing all the rendering into "Malaya". I'm concerned about all the red links this new section has created- we should create stubs at least for all of them. Borisblue 22:08, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
And a photo of the WanQingYian would be great the next time you pop over thre, Huaiwei. Borisblue 22:11, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
I hope to make a quite detour to that location on Monday...if the weather holds up. As for the red links, I am actually quite surprised that we dont have articles or any references to the Revolutionary Alliance, or that of the various uprisings which are considered more significant. I dont mind helping to create articles for the three Singaporean revolutionaries in the meantime.--Huaiwei 22:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Whoops..just realised its writtern as the Tongmenghui thats why! :D--Huaiwei 22:47, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
Dr Sun is also remembered by Chinese in Los Angeles; that's even a sculpture of him at Chinatown, [2]. Yes, that's in the United States! I will snap a photo of it tomorrow for the article. :D --Vsion 08:42, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Strong support Excellent article! Whoopee!~ -- Jerry Crimson Mann 16:28, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support Great work and its pretty innovative and interesting in the way his various names are described. pamri 16:34, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. While I was not able to help on the Peer Review, it looks like yall did a good job without me :D. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 18:17, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment the photo near the top of the page, below the family pic is hideous. Really needs to be cropped, i don't see why the lamp-post has to be there.Borisblue 18:23, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Object. The use of kanjis throughout the article is unnecessary and extremely distracting. This is not the chinese wikipedia. Also, a third of the article talks about the various names given to him (!). This is rather unbalanced. →Raul654 18:46, September 4, 2005 (UTC)
The names problem had been going on for a while. I've decided to be bold and pare it down and create a subarticle. Hope it's OK now. For the kanji problem, I can't help much, 'cause I don't know chinese. I'm sure Deryck will be able to deal with it. Borisblue 23:37, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Those are not exactly "Kanji" (one of the two Japanese scripts), but hanzi (Chinese script), although the former tends to take on the later. I would think they are not exactly excessive considering the context of their usage, esp considering they are often used with pinyin, a romanisation standard which dosent exactly apply outside the Chinese mainland and Singapore.--Huaiwei 01:34, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Erm, no. Give the romanization only. If someone is important, link to his/her article, and give the hanzi equivalent of his/her name on the first line of that article, per the manual of style. It makes no sense to use it on other articles. →Raul654 03:18, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
Done. Borisblue 14:15, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
Hanzis are cut down wherever wikilinks are given. The names section is also further shortened. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 08:26:03, 2005-09-05 (UTC)

Finish! Everything are done according to your requirements. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 12:07:27, 2005-09-06 (UTC)

  • Support. Good, thorough article. The Chinese characters are not a detriment; they are part of an accurate representation. They do not overwhelm the article but rather elucidate the Anglicized names with which they are used. More Wikipedia articles on non-Western people and cultures should include native languages and names. --FOo 02:02, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
I agree with FOo, and I do not think the Chinese characters are misplaced or overwelm it. Anyone familiar with Pinyin or read English texts on Chinese topics will note that Chinese characters are often included in the first instances whereby Pinyin is used because dissimilar and unrelated words and phrases often shares the same romanised form.--Huaiwei 15:19, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
It's reasonable to accept this small amount of Hanzis. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 08:37:45, 2005-09-07 (UTC)

  • Use lower case in titles consistently. Some of the sections are very short, and might be merged. Remove the Chinese characters unless they would be useful to Chinese readers of this English-lanuage article. I doubt it, but please make a case here. Otherwise, they look pretentious. Tony 06:41, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Titles were made lower-case wherever possible. The remaining upper-cases such as Wuchang Uprising were kept upper-case because they're proper nouns. Chinese words are removed whenever the name was linked to another article with the Chinese name specified. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 08:24:19, 2005-09-05 (UTC)

  • Conditional support, there are an awful lot of single sentence paragraphs, please condense them where appropriate.--nixie 08:31, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
    • Done! Sentences are lengthened wherever contents are available and condensed wherever they can't be improved.

Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 08:57:41, 2005-09-05 (UTC)

  • Support - CrossTimer 10:39, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Support — Instantnood 17:50, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
  • Support - HenryLi 12:36, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Object. All instances of Chinese characters, whether in Chinese or Japanese, should be removed with the exception of those that describe the various names given to Sun. They're only relevant to a very specific crowd; namely Chinese and Japanese speakers and English-speaking hobby sinologists like myself. Keep in mind that in a lot of computer configs, especially Windows machines, these characters show up as nothing but white boxes, making them utterly mystifying to a large number of readers. Otherwise a good article about a very appropriate and encyclopedic subject. / Peter Isotalo 16:32, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Notice: All chinese characters, except for Sun's names have been nuked. I would want to see standard romanization given for all the names, though. Some of the names in the article have just Hanji withou Hanyu Pinyin, which isn't good for non-chinese speakers. Borisblue 17:57, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
Most satisfying. Object stricken and changed to support. / Peter Isotalo 18:06, 7 September 2005 (UTC)
  • Object Support. Lots of tiny paragraphs (one/two sentences/lines). Merge/expand for better reading. Also, too few ilinks. I just went over lead, but looking through article I see many terms that should be linked, for example: Zhongshan dialect, Nanlang, Xiangshan, Cuiheng, Hawai, various dates, English, Mathematics and Science... mixed with few cases of overlinking (for example prefecture-level city linked several times in first section). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 00:19, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
    • For your reference, there are no such articles as Zhongshan dialect, Nanlang etc. However, short paragraphs are now joined up. Other terms such as Mathematics are linked. Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 04:42:12, 2005-09-09 (UTC)

      • Tnx. That an article doesn't exist doesn't mean we cannot link it. Red links are useful, telling people what articles are in need of creation. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 01:13, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
  • object (I apologize for coming here so late into the nomination since my comments were solicited a while ago. I just never got to looking at the article until now.) I think the article *nearly* makes the threshhold for fa status, but there are some major gaps that need to be filled in: 1) the name of Sun Yat-sen's mother should be given 2) Sun's family was unique among Chinese families at the time in that it did not oppose his non-conventional activities. The fact that Sun Mei financially supported Sun Yat-sen all this time, thus making him financially independent and allowing him to conduct his revolution, must be mentioned. 3) It must be mentioned that Sun had already been greatly influcenced by Christianity in Hawaii (in fact, his brother had imposed his return for fear of full conversion) before he damaged the village idols. It must also be mentioned that Lu Haodong was his co-conspirator in this act and both had to flee their village because of this. The sentence "Sun Yat-sen left Cuiheng village for Hong Kong" does not convey the circumstances under which Sun left. 4) There is absolutely no mention of Sun's ties to the secret societies and Triads, which he established to recruit mercenaries for the revolution. 5) Sun's role in the 1895 uprising must be more clearly explained 6) Sun's major western contacts (eg Dr Cantlie) and connections should be mentioned. also of note was Sun's kidnapping by the Chinese Legion in london (which led the English media to propel him into fame) 7) Regarding the Wuchang Uprising, the statement "Sun had no direct involvement" is too light a characterization. In fact, Sun had opposed an uprising in the Chinese interior in favor of one in coastal Guangdong province. This uprising was carried by an opposing faction in the Revolutionary Alliance and Sun would have opposed it in its planning. 8) Sun's political theory must be traced from the beginning and deserved greater coverage. The section "Western ideology and Sun Yat-sen" assumes that Sun's thinking was the same from the start and remained unwavering. In fact, Sun revised his ideas many times (he was leaning towards reform rather than revolution at the very beginning and changed from being anti-Manchu, pro-West to being anti-Western imperialism after the revolution) and made a bunch of semi-conflicting statements to please the factions he was trying to unite. The Lincoln quote does not adequately explain his position on democracy (he did not believe in mass elections by an uneducated populace and followed the Chinese line of supporting democracy only as a means to strengthen the state). There also needs to be mention of Sun support of nationalism (very very important here, and what he meant by minzu zhuyi needs to be explained too) and communism and socialism (which he tied with Confucian harmony). Lincoln and Hamilton should not be mentioned. Maurice William and Henry George should. 9) tied in with the earlier part of the Sun's revolution is his inability to be accepted by the reformists and gentry (because he lacked a classical education). His being rebuffed by Li Hongzhang and Kang Youwei (who not only refused to follow Sun but pulled Liang Qichao away from him) should be mentioned. 10) The overseas Chinese section does not belong under "legacy". It belongs in an earlier section that should include Sun's many contacts with some very diverse groups (westerners, Japanese, secret societies, bandits, outlaws, etc). these contacts, and the ability to forge alliances, was a large part of what made Sun Yat-sen. --Jiang 05:37, 9 September 2005 (UTC)
    • I, as the nominator, admit that it's impossible to include all information required about the article as said by jiang above. If those information are SO necessary that this article can never pass FA without them, I'll withdraw the application. However, in my opinion, those information is not quite important for the article (at least I was never taught about them in my history lessons). Therefore, would somebody judge that for me... Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 07:04:48, 2005-09-12 (UTC)

      • I don't expect that *everything* I brought up to be included for this article to attain FA status, but *almost everything* I brought up is also mentioned in the Enclopedias Encarta and Britannica. Wikipedia articles (especially featured articles) should not be inferior to that of illustrious competitor Britannica. Given that we are in a digitized format, they should really be the ones leaving out information. Based on what I've read in both, this article has to many gaps and is slanted towards the Chinese version of events, which has been greatly muddled by both the KMT and CPC trying to capitalize on Sun's legacy. Most importantly, this article neglects to point out Sun's diverse and extensive personal contacts and ability to forge alliances with opposing parties (and the flex his own ideology to suit these alliances).--Jiang 07:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
        • To be frank, I know nothing and have no idea about those trivial details you told me in the above passage, nor how to improve the article using your ideas... Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 08:16, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

          • Those "trivial details" (yes, a couple points are trivial, a bunch of others are fundamental) can be found in the Encyclopedia Britannica. Any article on Sun with no mention of secret societies and nationalism is unacceptable. This article by Spence scrapes on the issue of Sun's ideology/image as well as his underground/overseas activities (in about the same detail we would like). In the interests of being comprehensive and NPOV, we cannot rely solely on Chinese history books. The References are another place to start. Everything I mentioned can be found there too. for ezample, from this page (parts of which have been copied vertabim into wikipedia, but warning, there is some Chinese POV) there is a section devoted to his kidnapping.--Jiang 15:19, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
            • Hmm....the website I mentioned [above similarly devotes much literature on the kidnapping episode. I do believe we should add this to the article? The other lapses in information appears rather worrisome, to be honest.--Huaiwei 09:30, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
        • Well, so you people have the materials, why don't you just update them by yourself? (I admit that you absolutely know more than me about those stuff) Deryck C. - the very original one

Deryck C. - the esperanza-enriched one 07:47, 15 September 2005 (UTC)

  • Support- well-written, though it could still be improved (for example, making a sub-article for biography). Also, some of the red links are a bit distracting, but... that shows how much work is left to be done. :-) Flcelloguy | A note? | Desk 20:29, 10 September 2005 (UTC)