Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Presbyterian Ladies' College, Sydney/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 17:19, 7 March 2008.

[edit] Presbyterian Ladies' College, Sydney

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Self-nominator. I'm nominating this article for featured article because it has been a GA since November and recently went through the PR process (but did not get much attention). I believe it now satisfies FA criteria. Loopla (talk) 03:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Unfocused (and therefore struck) concerns; see new comment below ЭLСОВВОLД talk 16:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment. This article makes very extensive use of quotes, many of which could be replaced by original writing. Kakofonous (talk) 07:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
    • I have removed one that wasn't necessary. Loopla (talk) 01:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Great work. I disagree with the questions raised about the crest above. The Non-free crest is used to accurately represent the school, and to confirm to readers that they have reached the correct page. The PD image does not do either of these things. Congratulations to Loopla on a fine piece of work. Twenty Years 08:13, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Comment I would like to suggest that in the "Campus section" that the line about four tennis courts be scrubbed, its non-notable, and adds nothing to the article. Twenty Years 06:20, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Fixed. Loopla (talk) 01:42, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment Per this PLC page, the crest (Image:Presbyterian_Ladies_College_Sydney_crest.png‎) was adopted August 23, 1888. Age, and previous comments from Loopla, suggests this image is no longer copyrighted (i.e. PD). If this is the case, update the license tag accordingly. Alternatively, if image is still copyrighted, use of Image:PLCCigaretteCard.jpg will need to be reexamined, as it would likely constitute a derivative work. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 16:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
    • I am not sure how it should be tagged if it is not copyrighted. I am guessing Template:PD-Australia. Would this be correct? Loopla (talk) 02:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - Having made one minor change [1], I believe the article meets the FA criteria. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 08:53, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Comments by karanacs that have been addressed Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The prose needs a great deal of work, there are numerous MOS violations, and I think the article could be organized a bit better.
    • Go through the article and eliminate pieces of redundancy wherever possible. Here is just an example: Victoria had a ladies college, "so it was felt that N.S.W. Pres. should also have one" followed immediately by "other Protestant denominations had LCs, therefore the Pres. should have one too." This could easily be shortened and combined into one sentence.
    • Is the school prayer under copyright? I know that school songs are generally not reprinted in full because of copyright issues, and I suspect that this may be an issue for the school prayer as well. (Now, I see that the school hymn is here as well -- same concerns)
      • Comment I have removed the prayer as I am unsure of its copyright status. The song however is in the public domain according to British Law as the British creator died in 1897, and the song was written in 1893. The song is also used by a few other schools. Loopla (talk) 05:52, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
        • If you keep the song, then you need to reformat that section. There is a big gap (several paragraphs of white space) in the Uniform section as a result of the song and an image being placed back-to-back. Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
          • Comment Oh, it didn't realise! It doesn't look like that on my computer. I've made the song box smaller and moved the pic, can you still see white space? Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
            • Yes, I still see some white space (but not as much as before). I'm a little unsure how to reformat. The rest of the article has a lot of good images and there really doesn't appear to be room to move the hymn. Since it is the school hymn of other schools, too, do you really want to keep it? If you do, I'll have a go at rearranging, since I'm the one seeing the problem. Karanacs (talk) 21:44, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
    • I've also noted numerous issues with apostrophes and lack thereof. Please go through the article and make sure that the plural of "Presbyterian" is "Presbyterians" and NOT "Presbyterian's". I've also seen some instances where the possessive is meant and the plural is used instead (Countesses instead of Countess's). Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
    • The prose still needs a good copyedit too -- lots of repetition, lots of clunky wording. Karanacs (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

  • There shouldn't be a one sentence paragraph anywhere, especially in the lead.
  • A boarding school from the Wiki article is "where some or all pupils not only study, but also live during term time..." Since this includes both those who stay and don't, I don't think you need day school in the lead as well.
  • "advertised far and wide" is not encyclopedic writing
    • Done I have removed this. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Periods should be inside quotations marks. For example: "end of sentence." There are a few of these in the history section to correct.
    • Done Pretty sure I got them all. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • "By August 1888 the College had outgrown the Ashfield residence, which had always been considered a temporary home, and the newly established P.L.C Council began discussing alternative sites in the nearby suburb of Croydon." Who always considered it a temporary home?
    • Done Added info. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Only full dates with day, month, and year should be linked.
  • "beautiful gardens" - beautiful should not be used, remember WP:NPOV, unless this is a quote describing the gardens.
    • Done I have removed this. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The history section is too long. Try and condense some of the smaller paragraphs into the larger ones. Also, edit. Remove information that doesn't add anything to the history of the school.
  • I don't think the table of principals is needed. Those could all be incorporated into a sentence saying something like, past principals include...
    • Done Principals have been removed. Not sure where else they could be mentioned. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Under the campus section, there is no need for a list of buildings on campus. All lists should be incorporated into the text. This would help you expand the section, which is also badly needed. Could some campus information be moved from the history?
  • "P.L.C Sydney is arguably one of Australia's best girls sporting schools." This either needs to be reworded, or citations from outside sources need to be used to support it. Also, again remove or combine the one sentence paragraphs.
  • "In addition to that offered by JSHAA and IGSSA," can be better worded.
    • Done I have removed this. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I think the article also needs a good copyedit, consider making a request to the LoCE. Things such as "In September 2007" should have a comma after the 2007. I saw this lack of commas a number of times.
  • The individual subheadings under Co-curriculum should be combined together, such as student life and then not broken into subheadings. They are not major topics deserving their own subheadings. I would combine maybe Ensembles, Debating and public speaking, and Aid projects. I would remove the entire Exchange programme section as it doesn't say anything about the school. I would also remove the fees section, this is not an informational brochure on the school, but an encyclopedia article. Some of this could be incorporated above.
    • Comment Exchange programme has been removed. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't think the motto and crest needs its own section. Maybe try and incorporate a few sentences about it into the history section. Same with the school badge.
  • I would remove the uniform section. This is not very encyclopedic. If you want to mention it in the history you could, but not in this detail.
  • The house section should be text. Also, the level of detail found here is not necessary. We don't need to know about what the people the house is named after did. this article is about the school. The mottos and colors can go to.
  • I am not sure what the Ex-Students' Union is? Building, club, alumni organization? If it is a building, it should go in the campus section, club or alumni group should go under student life.
    • Comment I have added that it is an alumni association. I have noticed that Baltimore City College (an FA) has a separate section on its alumni association, quite similar to the one here. Im not sure therefore if it should go under student life, especially as its not an association for students, and plays only a very minor role in the daily life of current students. Just my thoughts. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The associated schools section again is not really relevant to describing this school. Focus on this school.
    • Done Has been removed. Loopla (talk) 05:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Also, sentences should never begin with 1966 saw...

If you haven't done so already, I would encourage you to look at the current education related featured articles located here. They will give you ideas on how to format this article and the headings and subheadings that are commonly used. KnightLago (talk) 18:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose—needs the attention of a good copy-editor. It's not only technical glitches throughout, but odd ways of saying things, that make this unacceptable as a FA. The opening is pretty bad. Here are random examples.
  • Opening sentence is a bumpy read, with EIGHT commas in about 25 words, hello. "The Presbyterian Ladies' College, Sydney (P.L.C. Sydney), is an independent, Presbyterian, boarding school for girls, located in Croydon, an inner-western suburb of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia." Do we really need "New South Wales" after "Sydney"? Do they really use the dots in "PLC"? Why not make it easier for foreigners by writing "the state of New South Wales" where this occurs at the end of the first para? And can you reduce the number of occurrences of NSW? It's tedious.
  • "Founded in 1888 by a committee of the General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church"—If you're going to mention a committee, tell us which one. And since the decision would almost certainly have had to be endorsed by the GA, why not leave out mention of this anon committe altogether? (Who cares?)
  • "Currently"—necessary along with present tense?
  • "caters for approximately 1,350 girls from Branxton Reception (4 years old)"—the 4 years old is clunky; you have to read on to make sense of it in reverse.
  • "Round Square"—this is jargon that the poor reader will have to link-visit to make sense of. The third para, in any case, is pretty boring: isn't there anything more important to an overview than this bureaucratic stuff?
  • The Sun-Herald's ranking seven years ago is digging up the bottom of the barrel. Embarrassing. The SH is w/end entertainment, and hardly authoritative.
  • "the idea of a Presbyterian College in Sydney arose in 1883"—This is awkward ("arose").
  • "a 14-roomed gentleman's residence"—New verb, to room? Tony (talk) 05:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.