Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Oceanic whitetip shark

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[edit] Oceanic whitetip shark

This article has gone through peer review and been the subject of extensive rewrites and fact checking by myself and others. We now think it would be worthy addition to the list of featured articles. Yomangani 11:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Support as semi-co-nominator, it is already a Good Article, it was up for FA status long time ago and failed, read resons on talk page, all of those comments should be fixed by now, we have done our best to get it up to current FA status. -- Stefan 15:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Object Neutral I'm highly impressed by your list of references, but I'd like to see more inline citations to directly match facts and claims with sources. This would make the article a far better tool to be used by those doing research on the subject. Additionally, I'm somewhat concerned that it might not be comprehensive, on a simple prose size comparison with other FAs, but not knowing the subject that well personally, I can't suggest specific things that are currently left out. Fieari 17:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
We thought this might count against it, but it is as comprehensive as it can be at the moment and unlikely to get any longer: because the oceanic whitetip is large and dangerous pelagic fish, it's not a creature that lends itself to easy study. Yomangani 17:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Can you run through the inline citations again? For example, I saw a direct quote by Jacques Cousteau without a citation, and another statement about Benchley, not referenced. Sandy 20:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Sandy 23:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Both are now referenced and I've filled in some more references to hopefully address Fieari's objections. Yomangani 23:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Far better referencing now (even if I'd've preferred page numbers, but I won't get too picky), so I consider that requirement met. I'm going to hold off on supporting just yet since Peta (below) has noted a comprehensiveness issue. Fieari 01:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I've added page numbers for the FAO catalogue (which is the only one of the books previously listed without page numbers that I have here) and addressed the conservation issue - hope you'll lend your support. Yomangani 10:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Still being somewhat uncomfortable with the length, and slightly concerned with the prose, I won't support, but I wouldn't object now. Neutral. Fieari 17:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, it's to the point, not wordy, covers major subjects, and as for refs, several are used more than once. Rlevse 18:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - for a vulnerable species - I think that is odd that this article does not discuss conservation status in any depth - since we have a bunch of featured animals using a similar set of headings in might be good to add a section specifically on conservation - like White's Tree Frog. I think the diet and reproduction sections are a bit too short to stand on their own. The text also seem to be a bit illogical in parts - for example in the description I would expect to be told how big the species gets before I read about the types of fins and teeth.--Peta 01:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
There is no further conservation data - until the 2000 report the last attempt to gauge population figures was in 1969. It has been listed as Critically Endangered in these two areas as a result but nothing further has been done - if it had been we would have included it. Yomangani 01:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
However there is stuff scattered through the article - it is really useful for the reader to have all this information in one place that includes - why the species is endangered, is it a part of a gobal trend (for sharks it probably is), who recognises the species as threatened, is anything being done and so on. --Peta 01:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
I take your point - I've added a conservation section at the end with a bit more detail on the stock estimates, status and conservation measures (basically saying stocks are falling, nobody is quite sure by how much and nothing is being done anyway!) Yomangani 10:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Tried to fix the teeth part, at least better now, but needs copy edit from a native english speaker I think :-). Stefan 15:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Object. There's much good in this article, but it needs an audit of prose, logic and consistency. For example:
    • En dashes and hyphens used for ranges. The former are preferable.
    • No hyphen after -ly words. "lesser-used" is awkward, and probably shouldn't be hyphenated. What about "less often/commonly used"?
    • Redundant "alsos".
      • Removed Stefan 06:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Problems with punctuation, e.g., "It may typically be found in equatorial waters; or, specifically, between 20° north and 20° south latitude."
      • Rewritten Stefan 06:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    • "The shark spends most of its time in the upper layer of the ocean — from the surface to a depth of 150 metres (500 ft)[4] — it prefers off-shore deep-ocean areas." Remove "from the surface" (there's lot's of redundancy), and make the relationship between the three segments grammatically clear.
    • Confusion between the past and the present: "They were once extremely common and widely distributed, and a map of their habitat appears as a wide band around the world."

These problems pervade the whole text. Tony 12:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I've done a minor copyedit after your comments, but I'm probably too close to the article to objectively examine the style (and I'm getting a bit punchy from it now). I've removed "from the surface" but I'm not sure I agree it was redundant, as I would think somebody will reinsert it (or something similar) in a few weeks. One of the problems with an encyclopedia anyone can edit is there probably has to be a balance struck between turning out perfect prose and the chances of further 'clarification' (but that's something for discussion elsewhere). Yomangani 12:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
You need a small team of collaborators, now. Do you know how to locate the right people? Tony 12:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
Any clues gratefully received; Stefan has contacted other editors from WP:FISH and we've announced it on Portal:Sharks. Some people have helped out but there has been limited response. Yomangani 13:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd do a quick search on the edit-history page of some of the articles in this field that you admire. See who's doing the copy-editing by using the compare-versions function. Start with the featured articles, I guess, although they're not all good, as the FAR process is showing. AndyZ sometimes agrees to help, and there's the excellent Spangineer, but I hesitate to name more people who are on my secret list of good copy-editors (don't you have a list?). Tony 14:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
No, I do not have any list, OK will contact tem, hope they offer help. Stefan 06:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. This article has been the subject of extensive research and fact-checking by many Wikipedians but especially Yomangani and Stefan. They have done a magnificent job getting this article ready for featured status. I have contributed to several featured articles, and believe me, I can always find several flaws- even with the very best of the best. There is no question that this is the best shark article, and in my view, better than several current featured articles. Elevation to featured status would allow it to serve as the "model of excellence" for other shark editors.--Hokeman 00:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Further comment on the prose—Hokeman, I wonder whether people here are living on different planets. Did you read the text critically? How can you say that this can serve as a "model of excellence" when the first sentence my eyes fell on was:

"These fins are noticeably larger than expected; they are also conspicuously rounded. The shark's nose is also rounded, and its eyes are circular with nictitating membranes."

Perhaps he meant a "model of excellence in everything but style"... Yomangani 11:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    • "The" is good enough, not "These": the referent is obvious.
    • Who's doing the expecting? What are the expectations in relation to? (This species? All species of sharks?) Odd expression in this context.
    • The first sentence would be nicer as "The fins are significantly larger than in other species of sharks, and are conspicuously rounded."
      • Changed as suggested Stefan 06:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Both "alsos" are idle and should be removed.
      • Removed Stefan 06:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
    • A comma after "circular" is almost mandatory here, to avoid possible ambiguity.
      • Added Stefan 06:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not good enough. I note that the "-ly plus hyphen" words haven't been corrected, although I pointed them out yesterday.

I think I missed one - corrected now.Yomangani 11:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I do hope that thorough copy-editing will proceed. It's a good article, otherwise, but needs to be very well written to be elevated to FA status. Tony 05:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I have tried to fix some of the comments pointed out here, but my english skills are almost good enough to find the ones just hinted for here, but not fixing them. I hope someone with the right skills will help in copy-editing, I can not do much more. Stefan 06:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I've had another pass over it. Yomangani 11:04, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment How can someone make observations in 1831 while on a voyage that lasted from 1822 to 1825? Punctured Bicycle 19:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
They were his observations on the 1822-1825 voyage, not his observations while on the voyage. Yomangani 21:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Can you elaborate on why "throughout its range" is needed at the end of the lead? Isn't it obvious that fisheries would fish for it within its known range as opposed to isolated areas? Punctured Bicycle 23:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Regional protection measures and demand for derived products normally lead to differing fishery practices in different areas. For example, the basking shark is protected in US Atlantic, UK and Maltese waters but is heavily fished in the Pacific due to demand from Asian markets. I'm not sure this article is the place to discuss this, but will add something if there is a general feeling it should be included. Yomangani 23:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
I still don't see why the extra clarification is neccesary. If we imagine that the oceanic whitetip shark is fished for within its range, outside its range, within the law, outside the law, or any combination of these, the fact that the species is facing mounting pressure from fisheries doesn't change. Where it is fished is not relevant to the sentence; the extent to which it is being fished is what is relevant. The extent is already covered by noting that its numbers are declining and that its fins are valuable. Punctured Bicycle 00:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
If I was presented with the phrase "faces mounting pressure from fisheries" my immediate question would be "Where?". The addition of "thoughout its range" indicates that the problem of overfishing and lack of protection is worldwide. Since the purpose of the introduction is to provide an overview of the themes in the article, I think it is appropriate to include it here.
The question of what is relevant in that sentence is subjective - I could split it into 3 sentences covering its decline, its importance to shark fin soup and fishery pressure, but when the 3 subjects are intimately related it seems a shame to resort to such a staccato style (although it would give it an The Old Man and the Sea feel which might be appropriate!)
I see what you mean now, thanks for clarifying. Though now that you mention it, it probably could be broken down into multiple sentences. How about: "Recent studies have shown that its numbers are in steep decline due to overfishing throughout its range. Like other shark species, its meat is harvested for human consumption, especially for shark fin soup." Punctured Bicycle 01:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll see if I can think of a replacement, but I'm wary of using "overfishing" in the article (though I've used it here) as "fishery pressure" covers not just targeted fishing, but also bycatch and damage to stocks caused by shifting fishery practices (such as exceeding quotas on prey fish, trawling etc.) Yomangani 15:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I've tried variations around this, but everything I've tried reads as stilted or inappropriate. Is this a deal breaker for you lending support? Yomangani 11:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - per nom - --GoOdCoNtEnT 06:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. A very good article. While the writing could use some polishing, it meets my standards. I'll do some copyediting myself. -- Rmrfstar 12:11, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
  • It's overlinked (including common words and repetitions). It's under-referenced (see my inline queries). This sentence needs recasting; I don't know how to: "They follow boats as well, having an overriding following instinct, developed over countless millennia of baitfish migrations." I've copy-edited down to and including "Behaviour". I suspect that tracts of this are largely lifted from elsewhere, but please forgive me if I'm wrong. Can you let us know whether material from other sources has been paraphrased rather than quoted verbatim, since there appear to be no quote marks. If this is the case, there may be some tweaking required to avoid copyright issues. Tony 14:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the copyedit. I've reduced the number of links (to which I'd become blind) and rephrased the "following instinct" sentence. The missing references are now in the intro as well as in the body and I added a clue to the identity of Peter Benchley. There shouldn't be any paraphrasing, as just about everything comes from the original reports or more than one secondary source. Some of the measurements are direct from the FAO catalogue because there is little than can be done in the way of original prose in that area, but even these are not verbatim. There are a couple of direct quotes (from Cousteau and Lineaweaver and Backus), but these are in quote marks and attributed in the text. Yomanganitalk 15:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks; OK, I'll look again tomorrow. It's kind of short, but I'm no expert in this area, so that might be appropriate. Tony 15:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
  • support. I didnt knew that in this area (western Iberia) was a shark area. Never found one though. never heard of any attack. --Pedro 22:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Good work on improving the conservation information. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)