Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ngo Dinh Can

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 00:51, 10 May 2008.

[edit] Ngo Dinh Can

The younger brother and assistant of President Ngo Dinh Diem of South Vietnam. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Comments - the sources look good. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)


Done for the persondata. I have not used an infobox in this case because it would not provide any extra convenience value to anything in the lead. If we have a cricketer or sportsperson, yes, because it will provide quick access to stats and lots of numbers which can't be packaged into the lead. I looked at other politicians like Manmohan Singh and John Howard and in those cases the infobox provides links to things like official posts, dates of office, elections won, etc. However, Can had no official position at all, was never elected, had no official power, and had no family at all, so the infobox would basically be empty except for a comment with dates of bith/death and "unofficial warlord/ruler of central VN" which is all in the first sentence. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Comments This is a good article, but there are some prose issues. I will go through the entire article and see what I can do. In the meantime, I hope you can clarify some things in the article for me:
    • first para, "Rule": what applications?
Applications for government allocated grants and business licenses. Done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
    • same para: I tried to fix the sentence regarding Can's grafting practices. I wasn't familiar with the word before I read the article, so my wording might be inaccurate. Please look into this.
Clarfied. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
    • second para, "Rule": Is the mention of Nhu necessary in the first line? I think it's fine if you just said "Cẩn was also often in conflict with his siblings on internal matters".
I explicitly mentioned Nhu and Can because they were the ones who explicitly (unofficially) controlled the two halves of the country, the others didn't run military organisations. Thuc mainly did religious-based interference rather than territorial based interference. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
    • same para: Could you elaborate on the matter of establishing an office for the secret police in Saigon? The reader is left wondering what happened.
No because the book didn't tell us the outcome. It only gave an example of conflict. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
    • first para: I understand that Can overruled the appointments because he wanted more power for himself, but this might not be clear to other readers. I have added an "explanation" of sorts to that line. Tell me what you think. By the way, do you think this fits nicely in para 1?
I removed the clarification since the previous sentence alreadt says he had unlimited power. It fits ok as an example of the unlimited power that he overruled centrally decreed decisions. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
    • "Rule": I rearranged the paragraphs a bit. There are still some issues with para 2, though. The Scigliano quote about the Ngo extended family seems a bit random, given that you were just describing the competition between the brothers two lines earlier.
Yeah, moved it to the first about the generalities of his power. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:22, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Comments by User:Dweller

Ah! Another one off Blnguyen's production line. Great stuff. Here we go:

  • "This is a Vietnamese name; the family name is Ngô. According to Vietnamese custom, this person properly should be referred to by the given name Cẩn." I'm still a little bothered... Margaret Thatcher, according to English custom, should be called Margaret, but referred to as Thatcher in a formal report, like a newspaper, or an encyclopedia. I assume you mean the latter. Indeed, I think you've said as much. But please do reassure me!
  • No, in Vietnam, people are always referred to by their first name nowadays, since there are too many Mr Nguyens, Trans and Les. It's basically the same boat as HARBHAJAN Singh, YUVRAJ Singh, etc. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "in charge of the central Vietnam" presumably includes a typo
  • "stretching from ... to the border at the 17th parallel, where he ruled as a virtual dictator". Two problems - who ruled as a virtual dictator (ambiguous) and the syntax makes it seem like the dictator ruled at the border only
  • New parag at "In his youth"
  • "Effective" twice in two sentences
  • "secularised the region with aggressive promotion of Roman Catholicism" sounds like a contradiction in terms. Is it because you're coming at it with a Buddhist POV?
  • I think "strongman" is a term to avoid unless you mean a chap wearing a bearskin bending iron bars into pretzels in a fairground sideshow
  • Early years section should most definitely begin by laying out the family, given it'll have such an important part in the story. A simple family tree diagram would be nice, too.
  • "The leading revolutionary of his time, Châu has been captured" PEACOCK/OR and a tense problem there
  • "met with" implies more than coming along and listening to a lecture as one of (presumably) a mass of people
  • If nothing's known of his youth, say so
  • Parag starting "Vietnam was in chaos..." has little referencing and several fat claims that should be referenced, including those opening words themselves.
  • "During this time, Cẩn actively organised a clandestine support base for Diệm in central Vietnam." You've not yet said who Diệm is in the main article.
  • "He helped crush" - presumably Can, not Diem. Crush is a weaselly metaphor that's a bit obscure. Are we talking wipe out, or suppress politically?

*"Sài Gòn". Second instance wikilinked instead of first. Also, I'm a little concerned by calling it that, instead of Saigon, which is the more universally recognised spelling in English. I am sure we have a MOS guide to these things - what does it say? (Same would apply with other Vietnamese words familiar in English like Viet Cong) At the least, I think (in the absence of looking at policy, cos I'm lazy) first instance could be "Sài Gòn (Saigon)"

  • Ok. I put the brackets there. Yeah it's a bit unusual to use S G but it would be inconsistent with diacrticsi otherwise. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Pedantically, I think one vetoes a thing. People are blackballed or some other metaphor. I suppose the easiest would be to go with "vetoed the appointments of..."
  • "corrupt practices, such as graft" del comma
  • "He required a fee to the" from the
  • No it's correct. the Ngo family was the NRM. They wouldn't approve contracts unless the businessmen made a donation. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Yup. I must have misread this; it's quite clear. How embarrassing. --Dweller (talk) 10:14, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

*W "black market" and "trafficking"

  • "Cẩn had once tried to set up an office for his secret police in Sài Gòn by showing Diệm his long list of detained political opponents, but insisted that he not have to report to Nhu." I don't understand, partly because I have no grip of the geography. Was Saigon in Nhu's area? What's the connection between Can's list and setting up an office somewhere? A bit mysterious.
  • Fixed. Yes, SG was Nhu's area. I guess he was bragging at how good he was at autocracyBlnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Quote reads ""[h]e is also considered"... Clumsy. Not sure what's wrong with the he, but why not put he outside the quote and start with the word "is"?
  • "in a much larger scale" on a larger scale
  • "Cẩn assumed that around a third of the rural peasantry were Việt Cộng sympathisers. He reasoned that they were of such a significant proportion" first sentence defines the proportion, so opening of second sentence has a redundancy. Try merging the sentences.
  • "so as to render the hamlets ineffective by intimidating other villagers from the inside." - I don't know what this means. Perhaps "ineffective" is the problem... ineffective at doing what? What's the purpose of a hamlet?
  • To lock the peasants inside teh fort and the VC on the outside. But all the peasants inside were already pro-VC, a lot of them. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I still don't understand the sentence, I'm afraid. --Dweller (talk) 10:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

*Perhaps explain the Popular Force first before comparing them with what his brother had done

  • "the program had aroused" an ordinary perfect tense "the program aroused" will do fine
  • ...and that sentence needs a cite
  • The dissidents comment perplexed me, because I don't know the history. What other dissidents were there to suppress, other than Viet Cong (who, presumably, the US were seeking to suppress!)
  • Presumably Can ignored his brother about going to Japan, but how could he do that?
  • Book doesn't say. I guess the thing about them having total power in their respective regions. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "Cẩn thought that the US government was responsible for an explosion during the Vesak shootings in order to destabilise the regime, with whom relations had become strained." sentence needs reworking.
Yes, it's better. If "explosion" means bomb-like, rather than massive increase, I'm happy. --Dweller (talk) 10:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "Local Buddhists began to believe that the fish was a reincarnation of one of Gautama Buddha's disciples." cite
  • "They mined the pond" - mined? Which type? I can't think any type of mining would be effectual against a fish? Did they let off explosives in the water?
  • Book doesn't say anything more than "mined". But I presume they put underwater bomb-type things. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • If the army came in after the explosives and the machine gunning, who did the exploding and the shooting?
  • "The grenading of the point finally killed the carp." What point?
  • That carp story's a cracker. Has it been on DYK?
  • No because I didn't find that until the 2nd phases of article expansion. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "The killing backfired," unfortunate use of the militaristic-sounding metaphor
  • Buddhist crisis seems to continue in next section
  • Yes, but we have to explain why there was a coup... Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "a young 37-year old general" Peacock, POV etc
  • Fixed. poinmted out that he was the youngest ever ARVN general. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "double crossed" POV
  • "Diệm and Nhu were executed at conclusion of the coup." Missing "the". And executed used twice in one parag with two different meanings. Suggest you alter the first.
  • "Following the downfall of Ngô family" missing "the"
  • Parag beginning "Following the downfall of Ngô family" needs more citations, esp. re atrocities
  • Fixed. Reprinted the whole ref throughout the sentence. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Wikilink "junta"
  • "thousands of irate townspeople walked three kilometres to Cẩn's house on the city's southern outskirts where he lived with his aged mother, demanding vengeance." Presumably he didn't live with his mother, demanding vengeance from her.
  • What's the US State Dept got to do with a Catholic seminary?
  • Article states that the junta were American-backed after they took over. Does this mean the US backed them after the fact, or did they back the coup?
  • "instructed that" remove "that" as it's not reported speech, but a direct quote
  • Wikilink article's first use of White House
  • Quote includes errors in English. Either needs fixing or judicious use of "sic"
  • It comes verbatim from a cable. Cables are written without conjunctions and articles like that. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Hm. Not sure how you could "[sic]" it. Maybe Verbatim Cable text at end of it? --Dweller (talk) 11:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Why suddenly switch to "Saigon"? (See comment above) Inconsistency
  • "Trí would only promise safe passage to Saì Gòn in an American plane where embassy officials would meet Cẩn" end of sentence depends on Saigon being subject, but it's switched to being the plane
  • "He had intended to ask for asylum in Japan." Drop the "had"
  • "The ambassador told Washington that asylum was unnecessary saying "It seems to me that our reason for giving him asylum therefore no longer exists"." Definitely one missing comma, arguably two
  • "It was reported that General Nguyễn Khánh—who had deposed Minh in a January 1964 coup—offered Cẩn exile if he handed over his foreign bank deposits. Cẩn refused, saying that he had no money." needs one or perhaps 2 citations
  • Wikilink General Nguyễn Khánh
  • "Cẩn refused, saying that he had no money." Technically, that's not a refusal, but a protestation!
  • After that sentence, you need to say that he was actually sentenced to death. It's implied, but never stated
Looks like you fixed this. --Dweller (talk) 11:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "Đôn suggested" - what, at the time? Dangerous! Brave man.
  • Fixed. It must have been later because Khanh put Don under house arrest when he took over. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "Khánh commanded" - I thought he was President? Is this a retrospective? Either way, what's the relevance?
  • Fixed. This was when Can was around, Khanh controlled a corps in Can's zone. Made the connection obvious that Can presided over Khanh's activities. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • "assisted ... onto a post" I doubt it. Try "assisted ... to stand alongside a post" And it needs a comma after "post"
  • "conveniently overlooking" POV
  • "which had been stored in foreign banks" try inserting "indeed"?
  • It'd be nice to have a short section at the end that looked at his legacy, or how he's viewed by modern day historians and by the Vietnamese people, or something, but not essential. Does anyone mourn his memory? Is he officially memorialised (even negatively?)
  • Diem and Nhu are born in an unmarked grave. The Ngo family had little support apart from Catholics - In expatriate communities, and in the area where I am, he is unofficially considered at teh local Vietnamese Catholic church to be a saint. By the Buddhists negatively of course. But inside Vietnam, they are generally ignored by the govt. But I don't have any sources about this, it's just general street chatter. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Hmm. Wouldn't want any OR. Fine. --Dweller (talk) 12:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Reference 12 - accessed date is irrelevant for paper-based. And if it's internet based, where's the link?
Looks like you fixed this. --Dweller (talk) 12:00, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Two sources missing ISBNs
  • I note that the template includes no diacritics. Why is this? As you know, I'd be happier without diacritics in the article, so this is an important question
  • Dunno. This article is in a minority becuase of the GA reviewer mainly. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to be a pain. Anyway, I'm done now. --Dweller (talk) 15:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Support notwithstanding miniscule issues still open, above. Another cracker, my unpronouncable friend. --Dweller (talk) 12:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support Excellent article. Maury (talk) 04:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. Couldn't really find any more prose issues, I think Dweller got them all. A few minor points on images; "Ngô Đình Nhu (right)" could be expanded (say he's shaking hands, and who he's shaking hands with), and it might look better with an image in the top right corner of the article—seems a bit bland for now. But otherwise, excellent work. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 06:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Fixed caption. I would normally do an image in teh top, but since the subject has no pictures, it would be distracting to have a pic of something else. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 07:56, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.