Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nevis/archive1

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[edit] Nevis

I had no hand in writing this article, but I think Pia did a *wonderful* job with this, and that it's more than suitable for FA status. —Nightstallion (?) 12:50, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Object pretty good, but footnotes belong at the end of a sentence per wiki style - not in the middle of a sentence, a few images need fair use rationales, and the geograhy section should be after or inside the history section, not after politics. Rlevse 14:05, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
  • My bad on history, I meant geography seems out of place. Also, there is little or nothing on pre-Columbian history, the culture section only has one paragraph and is music-oriented, and the recent history section should be a little longer to summarize the main article. Rlevse 22:54, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Conditional Support, per Rlevse. RyanGerbil10 (Drop on in!) 17:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)
• Conditional Support. Very nice, but I have some small issues. The names in the "Famous Nevisians" section shouldn't be in bold (making more paragraphs here might do the trick), and the "Parsishes" section could use some accompanying / explanatory text. The caption for Cicely Tyson seems incorrect, too. Jeronimo 17:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Having read this, I've sorted the fair use issues (I think), and fixed the footnotes. I've also also acted on Jeronimo's suggestions vis a vis the famous Nevisians. The caption is mea culpa, as I changed the image to one which fell under fair use, but forgot to change the caption. The images need a bit of neatening up following my replacements, which I'm not quite sure how to do. I actually disagree with the three editors above in that I feel that since the history section is largely concerned with the political history of the island, it is more logical to follow it with the politics and parishes sections, and then the geography section. I strongly agree that the parishes section needs some explanation, as nowhere is it made clear what their significance is. --David Mestel^(Talk) 18:25, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. The placement and format of the sections were done in accordance with the standard template used for all the Caribbean islands on Wikipedia (maybe for other articles about countries or places as well? I haven't worked on any other geography related issue yet, so I'm not too familiar with the issue of what is standard and what isn't.) However, a map showing the division of the island into parishes would perhaps be a better choice (as well as self-explanatory)? A map would enable us to simply remove the "Parish" section altogether, since it seems to create confusion. I don't want to step on any toes in that regard though, since all the other articles are in compliance with the standard. I admit, I really wrestled with urge to change the order between the sections, with the same ideas as those expressed by Rlevse, but in the end I decided to just follow the template out of respect for the people who have put in the time, energy and effort to create these things. I'd be happy to help change the order though, if that makes more sense to a general reader. Pia 00:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Object I see problems with 2b (Comprehensive) and 2c (Factually accurate). For example, one paragraph on Culture ? And seemingly trivial entries which are unreferenced, such as, Leonard Harris, a cricket player from Nevis, held the Leeward Islands' batting record in 1968. In spite of a good number of inline citations, there are a lot of unreferenced statements. Sandy 23:28, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Comment. Sandy, please refer more specifically to what is factually inaccurate or 2c cannot be corrected or dealt with. Would an expansion of the culture section take care of 2b? Cricket players are not trivial in the Caribbean, but if removing Harris from the list of famous Nevisians would make the article less trivial, I will certainly do that. The list of footnotes is becoming very, very long, but I will add references for all statements that seem controversial, or remove them, if you prefer. Please help by pointing them out, if you don't mind. Thanks, Pia 00:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

2c (Factual) has to do with referencing. I don't believe you can have too many references: the cricket player should be referenced. There are too many articles about towns, cities, counties, states, countries which claim notable residents, without giving us any means of knowing the person is actually a resident, and I've encountered many such inaccurate claims on Wiki. (Same applies to notable alumni on schools.) I'm not suggesting cricket is trivial :-) or that you should remove content, rather do what you suggest (add references), but add references to any statement which the reader might need to further investigate. For example, I saw the statement about the only 5-star hotel in the Caribbean. That screams for a reference (how many stars do the Ritz in Cayman, the Hyatts in Cayman and Aruba, have? Does that include countries that consider themselves Caribbean, like Venezuela, or is that only islands? I shouldn't have to go check.) Even items that seem to be straightforward still need a reference, not just those that may be controversial.

2b (Comprehensive) Culture was only the first I noticed, and it struck me that Culture warranted more than one paragraph. I've gone back and seen other areas: Recent history (1882 on) has very little content? There are Secession movement and constitutional issues that don't seem to be fully explored: as a reader who knows little about Nevis, I'm left unclear about where those issues stand today. Is the Economy discussion truly comprehensive? What are the advantages and drawbacks of an economy so dependent on tourism? I guess what I'm saying in general is, try to read the article from the point of view of someone who knows nothing about Nevis, and consider what we might not know. I have limited internet access because of a lightening strike, and am losing track of what I'm keeping up with, so please leave me a talk message if I need to respond further. Hope this helps, Sandy 18:57, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sandy, thank you. I'll work on those sections and on adding more references.

• Temporary object—oh dear, I see a false contrast in the lead:

"The most famous beach is the 4-mile long Pinneys Beach on the west coast. In the lush interior, rivers and ponds fill up seasonally, but the gently sloping coastal plain (0.6 miles/1 km wide) also has natural fresh water springs, especially along the west coast."

Does "but" lead to a countering of the previous statement? Can someone go through the whole article to check for false contrasts (and other problems in the prose)?

• • Why not spell out numbers less than 10? (e.g., "The two islands are separated by a 2-mile wide channel.") Sometimes metric equivalents are provided, sometimes not. Sometimes "St" has a dot, sometimes it doesn't.

• • "Nevis is conical in shape, with a volcanic peak at the centre. It is fringed by long strands of golden sand beaches ..."—What, the volcano is fringed by beaches? Try: "Nevis is conical in shape, with a volcanic peak at its centre. The island is fringed by long strands of golden sand beaches ..."

• • "Of the approximately 12,000 inhabitants of Nevis, the majority is of African descent." Ungrammatical and awkward. Try: "The majority of the approximately 12,000 inhabitants of Nevis are of African descent."

Now that's just the lead. Tony 03:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I think I've addressed all of your concerns, except for spelling out numbers. Personally, I find that having numbers written in figures allows me to see at a glance where the statistics are in a piece of text. Does anyone else agree? --David Mestel^(Talk) 06:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

No, the whole point of the examples is to demonstrate that the entire text needs copy-editing, not just the lead. Let us know when it's ready to inspect again. Tony 09:31, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Tony, you are right about the awkwardness of that particular sentence. More copy editing might indeed be useful and needed. I will go back to the text now and shorten some of the sentences in order to make the text easier to read and I will let you know when I am finished so that you can check it again. About the examples you pointed out: 1. Not to be picky, but "the majority" is singular and the majority in Nevis is of African descent, not "are". Sorry, Tony's sentence is better, and he's right. 2. The reason St sometimes has a dot is that American texts and book titles use St., but there is no dot in St in the Caribbean and British texts and book titles. Inserting or removing dots would violate the rules when it comes to leaving quotes intact and unchanged. To avoid other dot problems, the word Saint is spelled out in the text (but in book titles or quotes, the original is honored, naturally). 3. The island is a dormant volcano rising from the sea. Most of the land mass that connected the three-island chain during the ice age is now under water. I still like your changed version better. 4. The false contrast created by "but" was not meant to be false, but an actual contrast. The lush interior has only seasonal rivers and ponds, but the dry coastal plain has springs supplying fresh water all year around. The name Oualie, "land of beautiful waters", may seem illogical at first glance since the island has no lakes and only occasional, muddy streams, rivers and ponds during heavy rains. It is the hidden source of fresh water that make up the "beautiful waters", namely the natural springs. Pia 19:10, 15 July 2006 (UTC) 19:05, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• • But if you have to explain the contrast, it's not working in the text. Why not replace "but" with "and"? Tony 01:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe that dot thing can be explained somewhere in a footnote: who knew St had no dot in Caribbean and British texts? :-) Anything that you had to explain above to Tony has to be explained to all potential readers. Tony's examples were only from the lead: remember to thoroughly peruse the entire text for issues of copyediting, comprehensiveness, and references. Sandy 19:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sandy, I went back to check. I think we only have two references with "St./St" left now: the St. Kitts Nevis Observer. The publisher uses a dot in the publication's name (he's US educated). The official site of the Prime Minister of Saint Kitts also uses a dot, most of the time. Sometimes the press releases from his office do not. The British definitely prefer to leave the dot out, see for example the BBC. However, I don't think we have any quotes or titles from British sources with St in the article right now. Pia 23:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I notice the BBC report says: By 2003, Nevis was home to around 17,000 offshore businesses operating under strict secrecy laws, making the islands a target for drugs traffickers and money launderers. Laws have been introduced to crack down on the problem. This goes to the question I was asking about whether the article is comprehensive. You've got to watch out that the article isn't just a tourism promo: the problems have to be mentioned as well. Oh, be sure to put your categories and interwikis in alphabetical order. Sandy 00:23, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Sentences like Antigua-based Admiral Nelson and his friend Prince William Henry, Duke of Clarence and future King William IV of the United Kingdom, partied here. do not belong in the article. --Hintha 21:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)