Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Neilston

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 19:57, 6 March 2008.

[edit] Neilston

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I'm self-nominating this article for featured article because I have some experience in taking settlements to FA status, and believe this article meets the criteria. Neilston, which conforms to the WP:UKCITIES standard, has recently gained GA. -- Jza84 · (talk) 00:20, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

• Neutral: complete, but the article needs the section culture and more images. --jskellj - the nice devil 13:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I don't believe these are barriers to, or requirements for FA status. There are elements of Neilston's culture dispersed throughout the article; there is little point repeating this material again. -- Jza84 · (talk) 11:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
• Comment The content looks good, but I recommend a copyedit by a third-party as the prose is a bit awkward in places. Epbr123 (talk) 18:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support I think it now meets my standards. Good work! Epbr123 (talk) 22:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
• Comment I did a copyedit and made some improvements where I thought I could. Some points:
  • "Following its period of rapid industrialisation, in 1904 about 400 mill houses were constructed..." - for a community of only a few thousand people, that is a lot of houses for one year.
  • Is there something wrong with ref 41 (East Renfrewshire Council. Neilston Leisure Centre. eastrenfrewshire.gov.uk. Retrieved on 9 January 2008.)? It sends me to a blank page except for two links, neither of which go anywhere.
  • In the lead, the opening sentence is fine, but rather than using the opening paragraph to describe its relative position, I would go for some more descriptive details that characterize the subject, like population.
  • In my (North American centric) searches on this subject, all I could find is stuff on its football club, 18-19th C cotton industry, and its webcam (which made international news![1]). --maclean 05:34, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
• Comment (too all): Thank you ever so much for this feedback so far. I guess from the neutral, cautious comments so far I'm struggling with the "wow factor"! I'll try to address this and some of the other issues raised. As Maclean25 states, there is little material about this online, and I've really struggled. There is one book published about it specifically too! It is a very banal place which is why I real quite pleased with it, but failing to get across the hard work! I'll see what I can do. -- Jza84 · (talk) 11:37, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Is this the book? [2]? I've also encountered this problem while working on small communities, but there are usually regional books that mention the community. --maclean 02:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
• Support I am getting a little suspicious about this place. You mention how "very banal" it is, and their webcam is famous for showing how "dull" it is, and their web address is "nothingtoseehere.net". Either it is a paradise they don't want to share or a secret testing ground they don't want to expose. Regardless, the article has what I've come to look for in the UK city articles. Thank you for the "Public services" section. --maclean 02:04, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
• Comment leaning towards support. Article looks great generally. Just some comments on the handling of the "History" secition material

  Some toponymists suggest Neil was a General of King Haakon IV of Norway, who, fleeing from the Battle of Largs (1263), was overtaken in this locality and put to death. According to the custom of the age a burial mound was erected over his grave and the locality ultimately received the name of the General.[4] Others find Neilston's origin in a stone erected over a supposed Highland chief, named Neil, who was allegedly killed at the Battle of Harlaw (1411), during the reign of Malcolm III of Scotland.[4]

  If Neilston appears in the Paisley Registrum in 1163 (I don't have access to that cartulary atm), then that's it. The other suggestions from tertiary sources have to go or be confined to a footnote, though the legend is perhaps worth retaining as such [rather than as a serious suggestion]. Another serious difficulty with Others find Neilston's origin in a stone erected over a supposed Highland chief, named Neil, who was allegedly killed at the Battle of Harlaw (1411), during the reign of Malcolm III of Scotland.[4] is that the battle of Harlaw took place three and a half centuries after the reign of Mael Coluim III!

  mentions that the Anglo-Norman[6] knight, Robert Croc of Crocstown (Crookston)

  Barrow, you may have seen, mentions Nigel de Cotentin as the "probable" source of the name. I should add that for historico-linguistic reasons this place-name is either exonymic when first used or the founder was certainly not called Neil (i.e. Niall), but Nigel. The period in which 1163 falls is still the first generation of English language use in the area. If you think of Dufnalstoun as a parallel, the name in mid-13th century Beauly charters name for an entirely native settlement, the other possibility is that the owner was called Niall but was "displaced" by Croc or another mercenary knight fitz Alan had brought from England. Just a historical comment there! :) Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:35, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

  • OK, I think I've addressed most of these issues, except the toponymy of Neilston. Every source about the history of Neilston (which is a very limited number!) has something about this, and though I've not lived there since childhood, it is something of local importance (which is odd I know). However I think it's inclusion is worth keeping not so much in this capacity, but in discreditting some of the older theories which plague the history books (One guy thought the Battle of Harlaw was at Neilston's Harlaw Damn!). I hadn't noticed the material on Nigel de Cotentin; I had the source very breifly and it was a massive book! Nothing about this appears in Discover Barrhead & Neilston, although the book has about 15 paragraphs in total - 12 about Barrhead! -- Jza84 · (talk) 15:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

    Thanks. I think it's still imbalanced. The Paisley thing should definitely be in the first one or two sentences. The legend is good to have perhaps [I like that sort of thing at least], but don't think you should have it presented as a serious possibility ... the Paisley charter really does debunk it [unless there is some other argument or evidence regarding the charter's authenticity that is!]. No "toponymist" (a toponymist is different from a guy writing on a toponymic subject, who could be anyone) would currently argue that Neilston derived from anything after its first attestation (that would be regarded as absurb), and you have suggest in the present tense. If you don't trust me on that, email Simon Taylor or another actual toponymist of Scotland. The sources you use here (save Barrow), aren't likely to be reliable in this material, which requires more specialisation and bibliographic knowledge than these authors are likely to acquire for the broad topics they're interested in. I'd also drop the universally; it's both not verifiable (you can't check every piece of writing that's gone through the press!) and not true, as Neil is a different name than Nigel, and the most credible source you cite says "Nigel". Anyways, don't let those comments detract from your sense that this is good work. It is very good work! All the best, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

    • I'll try to address this. On reflection it could be seen as imbalanced (though isn't intended to). I'll rearrange it. I've use the phrase "toponymist" exactly from Discover Barrhead & Neilston without considering the meaning. The book is a rather weak source however. If you could leave this with me a short while, I'll try to fix this. -- Jza84 · (talk) 16:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
      • Well, there's no rush. I'm not gonna vote against it on that anyways. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
        • I think I've addressed this issue now. -- Jza84 · (talk) 20:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
          • You nearly did. Kind of the long way around to continually suggest suggestions, so I just edited the remaining ones in. You can tell me what you think. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:54, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comments
  • In the lead, there are en dashes that should be em dashes. WP:DASH.
  • The last sentence in the lead seems a bit of "recentism" for an encyclopedia article.
  • You probably don't want to wikiling "Neil" unless it is to a specific person who the town is believed named after. Since it's unknown, don't link.

Sorry, more later. --Laser brain (talk) 05:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• • I think I've addressed these issues. -- Jza84 · (talk) 15:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Support. The article has been improved, and I did some copyediting to eliminate the last of my prose concerns in the history section. Karanacs (talk) 17:19, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
• Weak oppose for now. I think the prose needs serious work, especially in the history section, and I have questions about one of the sources.
  • The prose in the history section needs a little work. There are some areas of short and stubby sentences, and other areas where the prose needs to be tightened (example only: "A person by the name of Christian Shaw" should just be "Christian Shaw...")
  • Lots of weaselly-type words. "is said to have been ", "it has been put that". Either say who said it, or take out the wishy-washiness.
  • Lots of use of "<subject> being the..." Why not is/are/was, etc? This has led to at least one incomplete sentences ("; East Renfrewshire Council being the unitary local authority for Neilston.")
  • Need a citation for "Compared with the average demography of Scotland, Neilston has low proportions of people born outside the United Kingdom, and people over 75 years of age."
  • "Midge being a corruption of Madge" -- what does Madge have to do with Mary?
  • need a citation in Landmarks section for " Crofthead Mill is Neilston's largest and oldest cotton mill, dating in part from 1792 but predominantly 1880 after much of the original building was destroyed by fire."
  • Is it really important that the sports section lists the anthem and colors of the football club, or is there better information about the club that could be added here?
  • Is this a reliable source? It looks like anyone can submit information. http://bobbinsandthreads.co.uk/neilston_mill.asp

Karanacs (talk) 17:43, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• • OK, I'll try to address each point made:
    • The prose in History is fine, but by standards only (!). I'm not a strong copy-editor, so if there are any specific issues you could point to I would be greatful.
    • Re "it has been said", I put that in per some feedback obtained here. I'm not sure how to go about stating the point. I've removed the "it has been put that" however, and on reflection agree it was un-needed. Are there any other examples?
    • Could you point to specific examples of the "Z being the..."? I know I've put this a few times but I think this may be symptomatic of requiring an additional, third-party copyedit (it has had one already mind!).
    • "Compared with the average demography of Scotland, Neilston has low proportions of people born outside the United Kingdom, and people over 75 years of age." was cited in the comparison table, but per your feedback, I've doubled up the citation, to make the source clearer.
    • Midge is from Madge which is also a derivation of Madonna (Mary). I wanted to say "Midge is a local form of Madonna" but I can't find a source that makes that so explicit. Can you advise?
    • Re citation for Crofthead mill - I will try to obtain this (it is from somewhere, I just haven't made the citation totally clear).
    • I'd be inclined to keep the kits and anthem. The Farmer's Boy is actually an anthem for the village! I just can't find a source to assert that claim! The best I have about it is the football connection. I don't think it's an objectional statement to include, and also think it adds context for the image too.
    • bobbinsandthreads.co.uk seems to be reliable upon scrutenisation. The material that is added is personal experiences and anecdotes (here) rather than the hard dates and facts that appear on the main page.
  • I hope that helps for now. I'm pleased with the feedback and would be grateful if you could respond to some of my queries. -- Jza84 · (talk) 20:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
    • The problem with random people being able to put information on a website is that we have no idea how accurate it is. I don't think Bobbinsandthreads.co.uk can stand as a reliable source -- it is self-published and should not be used.
    • Can you find a source that says Madge is a derivation of Madonna? Then you can say that Midge is a nickname for Madge, which is a derivation of Madonna. Otherwise, I'd remove the parenthetical sentence, because I think it will confuse people.Karanacs (talk) 20:46, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
      • I've taken out Bobbinsandthreads.co.uk. The information I was citing was avaliable on a .gov site elsewhere.
      • I can't find anything on Midge -> Madge -> Madonna. On a google search I simply find stuff on Madonna (entertainer), which is less than helpful. -- Jza84 · (talk) 14:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
• Neutral - Perfect GA, incomplete under a cultural aspect, but well-referenced. MOJSKA 666 (msg) 06:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you mean or what part of the FA criteria or manual of style you're looking at specifically. Do you mean a "Culture" section? There are aspects of culture already mentioned at length and it doesn't make sense to repeat them in a new section. -- Jza84 · (talk) 14:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• Note: there are problems throughout with WP:MOSNUM#Precise language (for example, the word today is used frequently. What is today in a dynamic encyclopedia?) Also, please review WP:OVERLINKing of common terms known to most English speakers. For example, what value is added to the reader by linking the word granite? Undefined jargon in the lead (Category B listed building); if I need to click somewhere to find what that is (and the article doesn't tell me), does it belong in the lead? The external link checker (see the top of the FAC) also yields three dead links. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:39, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
  • This is excellent feedback, thanks. I think these issues are symptomatic of having, broadly, written the article myself, with little input from others. Of course, there are likely to be issues where I know what is meant or implied, but others with an alternative, international perspective may not...... I have removed all instances of "Today", which you were right to point out, and also delinked granite. Could you point to any other issues that you think are holding the article back? I would very much appreciate it if you did. On the issue of deadlinks, I'll try to fix these. I know one is hard to replace, but I have a cached version for what it's worth. -- Jza84 · (talk) 19:51, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

• Weak support Of the references nothingtosee.net is the weakest; it appears to be self-published blog. Unlike the other self-published sites it doesn't have a review mechanism and it's being used to support claims of which the author has no direct first-hand knowledge. Why is the minister Alexander Fleming celebrated? There's no indication of why he is notable. DrKiernan (talk) 11:30, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the feedback and copyedit. It is much appreciated. I believe I've now explained Fleming's notability (apologies for missing this out). I did have reservations on nothingtosee.net, but made a call to use it with another source (bobbinsandthreads.com) as it didn't appear to be open source and the claim I'm trying to assert in the article is known to me locally (no excuse I know). I'll try to search for a better reference, but a cusory search with Google doesn't come up with anything yet. -- Jza84 · (talk) 13:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• Note: there are still 404 errors on the external link checker. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:04, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
  • OK, I think I've fixed these. One shows as a "soft 404" but the link itself funcions perfectly. -- Jza84 · (talk) 17:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Thanks for checking and letting me know; I don't have time to check them all on every article myself. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:26, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.