Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/National Collegiate Athletic Association (Philippines)/archive1

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[edit] National Collegiate Athletic Association (Philippines)

I believe this can be an FA. After a peer review, where a subheading was objected upon (and amended), it looks good enough for me. It has been stable, has references, well-written, follows the style manual, the images are tagged. Also, a daughter article is now a featured list. Circa 1900 14:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

:Object. The lead section is too short, the usual for a lead section is three well-fleshed out paragraphs covering the topic in a brief summary. Also, some of the subsection headings, especially those regarding certain rivalries, are not written using an encyclopedic tone. There are also a few one sentence paragraphs which should either be expanded upon or merged into other paragraphs.

Weak Support. Circa 1900 and I, but mostly Circa, have worked together to bring this article up to standard, and beseide a bit of more vigorous referencing, I think it is now qualified. RyanGerbil10 02:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I've already added a third paragraph to the lead. I've also copyedited the rivalries section. Circa 1900 23:36, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

Better, but the lead paragraphs need to be longer. The rivalry section looks much better now. However, I'm going out for the night, so we'll have to continue this discussion tomorrow. Keep up the good work, we can get to FA status within nomination time. RyanGerbil10 23:46, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

I've amended the lead in the Rivalries section and made other minor adjustments. Circa 1900 01:50, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Getting closer, but the history section needs to be expanded and contains some unencyclopedic tone, with phrases such as "...was the brains behind the collegiate league." Try not to use idiomatic expressions, they tend to make the articles harder to understand, especially for those who don't speak English as their native language. RyanGerbil10 17:54, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. Also, I've expanded the history section. Circa 1900 02:03, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I would say that one needs to avoid referrieng to schools as acronyms, especially in serial lists, like in parts of the history section. Also, the rivalries section seems a bit light on citations. RyanGerbil10 03:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is a list of everything else in the article I think needs fixing before it reaches FA status:

• The lead section needs to be longer. The three paragraphs are very short, and taken together, do not give an accurate summary of the information contained in the article. The lead should be rewritten to reflect the overall organiztion and total content of the article better.
  • Expanded the lead.
• The tone of some of the section, especially the "Structure" and "The league today" sections is overly colloquial and should be rewritten to be more formal and encyclopedic. Also, according to the WP:MOS, the word "the" should not be used in subsection headings, which should be reworded.
  • Done.
• The table in the "The early years" section is confusing and needs to be explained better, or reformatted.
  • Changed "#" to "No. of schools on the league". It illustrates that membership during tose years was liquid (hence confusing), especially when several schools were members for a very short time.
• I am confused about the difference between the Junior Division and Senior division mentioned in the article, it should be explained better. If it is an organiztion of colleges, why are high school athletes included? Do high school athletes attend the member colleges or do they attend local high schools? If so, which high schools and where?
  • Clarified on the Sports section.
• The article in general needs a copyedit to search carefully for spelling, grammar, and punctutation mistakes.
  • Done.

I hope I'm not being too harsh; I'm just trying to be thorough. I like seeing articles become featured and there;s no reason why this one can't be someday. RyanGerbil10 04:09, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

That's fine with me. PR did not give the article the proper review, and I am happy that someone is taking a close look from the view of an outsider. Thanks. I'd be doing those that needs to be fixed. About some rivalries being light on citations, most of the Ateneo's rivals were not cited properly. I do not have the sources, although they've been cited at the references section. Circa 1900 04:27, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

The only issues I have remaining are minor. All that remains to be done is to consolidate a few short paragraphs into longer ones, and then to have somebody thoroughly copyedit it. I'll do the copyedit myself later. RyanGerbil10 23:43, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Come to think of it, the article needs a more detailed explanation of how the scoring system works, and maybe an example. I finshed copyediting the first half of the article, I won't be able to finish for another few hours. RyanGerbil10 00:23, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

It's on the NCAA Philippines General Championship article. But since it is important, I'd add a short explantation. And btw, thanks for your patience on the article! Circa 1900 00:32, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Support as per RyanGerbil10 --Howard the Duck | talk, 06:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Full and Total support Though it must still be updated and revised. Justox dizaola 03:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

• Object due to referencing issues. The article contains numerous statements of opinion and weasel-wording that doesn't appear to be referenced; this is particularly an issue in the "Rivalries" section. Some obvious examples: "Arguably the most storied rivalry in Filipino sports...", "The most memorable battle...", "It was rumored that aside from the students from both schools, Danding Cojuangco's (a La Salle alumnus) personnel were present at the Coliseum and actually led the riot", "the Stags were poised for basketball supremacy", and so forth. Kirill Lokshin 04:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Done. Removed unsourced statements and added more references. Circa 1900 06:32, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Nice work; no more objections from me. Kirill Lokshin 06:09, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

• Mild Object - There are a few minor issues such as use of contractions (which should be avoided per the Manual of Style) and some spelling errors. I'm also a little unsettled by the fact that much of the information in the article is in table form, but I can deal with that. —Cuiviénen, Saturday, 6 May 2006 @ 01:23 UTC

  Done. I've used MS Word spell and grammar checker and it should have fleshed out the undesirables. The table form is just a summary, if it was in prose it will be more confusing. Circa 1900 03:35, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

  Support —Cuiviénen (talk•contribs), Saturday, 6 May 2006 @ 11:59 UTC

• Object—2a. Let's look at just the lead. Much redundancy and disorganisation.

The National Collegiate Athletic Association, NCAA, is an athletic association of eight colleges and universities in the Philippines. The NCAA, which was established in 1924, is the oldest existing athletic association in the Philippines. The NCAA in the Philippines is not connected to the NCAA of the United States, for they are independent of each other.

The National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) is an athletics association of eight colleges and universities in the Philippines. Established in 1924, the NCAA is the oldest athletic association in the country; it is not connected with the NCAA of the United States.

Both the Policy Board and the Management Committee handle the affairs of the league. These two bodies are composed of representatives of the eight member schools, and determine the acceptance or suspension of member schools, reversal or replay of games, and other such official actions.

The Policy Board and the Management Committee handle the affairs of the league. The Board and the Committee are composed of representatives of the eight member schools, and determine the acceptance and suspension of member schools, game reversals and replays, and other official actions.

During the nearly year-long season, which begins in June and ends in March, schools participate in 11 sports, which are further divided into two divisions: the Juniors division, for male high school student athletes, and the Seniors division for collegiate student athletes. In some events, the Seniors division is further divided based on gender.

During the nearly year-long season from June to March, each school participates in 11 sports; each sport is conducted in two divisions: the Juniors for male high-school students, and the Seniors for college students. There are male and female Seniors divisions for some events.

Also, ... [get rid of 'also']

Are the representatives elected? By whom? We need a brief explanation of how the powers of the two bodies are delineated.

Needs a proper copy-edit throughout.

Tony 07:51, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I've already replaced the red text with the olive text. Also, I've edited the structure and hosting section, for the explanation on how the members are selected are there. Circa 1900 13:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, but these were only examples; the whole text needs proper editing to be 'compelling, even brilliant', as required of FAs. Can you let us know when that has been done, so it can be reviewed? Tony 06:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

RyanGerbil10 copyedited the article already: [1], [2] and [3]. Circa 1900 06:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, he may have, but all of my comments here refer to the article as it is now. It needs considerable work to bring it to FA standard. Tony 07:01, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

User:TheCoffee copyedited the article already. Take a look if it good enough already. Circa 1900 13:45, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

It's better than it was, but still not good enough. I've left a few inline queries. Plus things like:

• • "The rivalry was revived"—phonological jingle;
  • "led to both Ateneo and San Beda withdrawing from the NCAA"—ungrammatical (try "led to the withdrawl from the NCAA of both Ateneo and San Beda";
  • "a stone throw away from"—no, it's "a stone's throw";
  • "in one occasion"—no, it's "on"

Now, if I can pick these out at random in a small section, it indicates that there's a high density of micro-problems in the prose throughout (although the top is pretty good now). I don't know how this could have been edited thoroughly by several people, as you say it has. Try another WPian; to be a FA, the prose must be "compelling, even brilliant". Tony 04:55, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Howard the Duck | talk, 09:52, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

User:Howard the Duck and User:Rmcsamson did the copyedit and changed/removed the suspect words already. Circa 1900 03:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• Object All those logos need a Fair use rationale. Jkelly 04:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Re: Okay, I'm helping out here, but I see that this doesn't have a fair use rationale yet it is a part of a featured article. --Howard the Duck | talk, 09:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Can you give an example? Circa 1900 11:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Example:

== Fair use for [[ARTICLE NAME]] ==

This image, picture-fair-use.jpg, is being linked here; though the picture is subject to copyright I (~~~) feel it is covered by the U.S. fair use laws because:

# it is a low resolution copy of an athletic team logo;

# it does not limit the copyright owner's rights to profit from merchandising;

# copies could not be used to make illegal merchandising;

# the image on the cover is significant because it is the recognised symbol of the sports team

Jkelly 17:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, done them already. Circa 1900 00:42, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

• Reinforced object. I'm sorry to be like a dog at a bone, but WP's basic standards are at issue. When I see a sentence such as this in the lead, I really wonder whether any care at all has been taken in fixing up the prose:

"Some rivalries have lead to members withdrawing from the league as some games escalated into full-blown brawls. "

• • "Some" occurs twice in the same clause; remove the first instance, in any case, because it's redundant.
  • Lead is a metal.
  • "members withdrawing from the league" is ungrammatical and awkward; either an apostrophe is required, which is nowadays a rather old-fashioned construction ("members' withdrawing from the league"), or the phrase should be reworded simply as "the withdrawal of members from the league" (much better).
  • "as" is ambiguous (= while and because); use a comma after "league", then "because".
  • There's tension between "have led" and "escalated" (two types of past tense).

Then the next sentence:

"The NCAA took measures to prevent major brawls from happening again, including the admission of several new members into the league." It would be nice to remove "from happening again" as redundant. But more serious is the unexplained logic—why would the admission of new members prevent brawls?

These types of problem are scattered throughout the whole article. Now, if you think that it's good enough, WP is doomed to mediocrity.

If you wish, please ask and I'll specify a number of ways in which you can improve your writing skills, co-opt others to help in the editing, and employ techniques for improving the editing process.

You're asking for a promotion to "among the best that we offer". Not yet, I'm afraid. Tony 12:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Since Circa 1900 seems to be gone, and I want a Philippine article to be featured, I;d want to help him/her, so don't bite me.

I've copied the article into Word and saw several verbs in passive voice. Is that a problem? Also, I think I've resolved the problem in the lead. --Howard the Duck | talk, 02:42, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

• Active is often preferable to passive. Why is a whole table given over to comings and goings in the early years, including a column that shows the total number of schools at any one point (the significance of which is not mentioned in the text)? The introductory sentence is not good:

"Since then several schools came and left, as summarized by the table below:" Try: "During the NCAA's first 11 years, several schools entered and left, as set out in the table." (Or just list the entries and departures (+ year) in another sentence.

The sentence immediately after the table is, like much of the article, unclear and uninspiring: "In 1932, National University, which had withdrawn earlier, the University of the Philippines and the University of Santo Tomas established their own ”Big Three League.” The “Big Three” were still a part of the NCAA, but they conducted their own league, separate from the NCAA."

Tony 15:35, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, since the coordinator seems to have vanished, and there always a next time, It'll be better if we fail it. --Howard the Duck | talk, 15:40, 21 May 2006 (UTC)