Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Monte Ne

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 14:14, 17 September 2007.

[edit] Monte Ne

previous FAC

This is the fourth time I've listed Monte Ne as an FAC. The article has been revised many times. It was reviewed by the League of Copyeditors as well as run through Peer Review. It was recently reviewed as a good article as well. All concerns mentioned in previous FACs have been been addressed. The article is now ready to be featured. --The_stuart 20:12, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

  • Comments. Notes and References are still unformatted, there are still WP:MSH issues, and I fixed your WP:FN placement.[1] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
    • I need some clarification on your comments. I am assuming your problem with the Notes and Reference sections are that they aren't alphabetized. How would I go about alphabetizing them, but I can't figure out how I would do it. Also, will you clarify what the WP:MSH issues are? --The_stuart 17:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
      • No, not alphabetical, unformatted as in incomplete information. See WP:CITE/ES. All sources should have a publisher, all websources should have a last access date, and author and publication date should be supplied when available. MSH is manual of style for headings; you should avoid repeating words (like Monte Ne) in section headings, and avoid the use of "the" and "a". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:06, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
        • I believe I have fixed all of these issues.--The_stuart 18:48, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
          • I'm wondering why almost the entire article is History ? The references aren't yet fixed. For example, notice that http://www.arcadiapublishing.com/news_article.html?id=523 offers an author and publication date that aren't given in your citation. This is an example of the work needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
            • Monte Ne is history, it isn't there anymore. However, I removed the heading history and made all the subheadings headings. I do not understand your problem with my references, I went to the link and saw essentially the same publishing date as I had on the article for the Lord book: Lord, Allyn (2006). I went ahead and added the full date. --The_stuart 18:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Just to help with the citation issue. This citation:<ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.arcadiapublishing.com/news_article.html?id=523 |title=Monte Ne Rises From the Ruins: New Book Chronicles Coin Harvey's Date With Destiny |accessdate=2007-04-13 |format= |work=The Morning News}}</ref> should actually look like this:

<ref>{{citation|last=Martin|first=Becca Bacon|date=[[October 26]], [[2006]] |url=http://www.arcadiapublishing.com/news_article.html?id=523 |title=Monte Ne Rises From the Ruins: New Book Chronicles Coin Harvey's Date With Destiny |accessdate=2007-04-13 |newspaper=The Morning News}}</ref> Furthermore, ALL of your citations need to have a publisher and a title. A lot of them have only a url and a retrieval date. Karanacs 19:23, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

They need not use the citation template, which is clumsy. In your example above, the cite news template can be used. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I have gone back through a fixed all of the reference problems I could see--The_stuart 20:27, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Many of the citations are still missing publishers. All websites should have a publisher listed to help people judge the relative reliability of that source. Karanacs 21:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
I have been trying to understand this comment but I can't figure out what you mean. Do the newspapers need publishers listed? What about personal pages like the James Skipper ones or the scuba diving websites where no publishers are listed. Why isn't the link itself enough?--The_stuart 19:48, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Newspapers don't need a publisher, but all other websites do, including personal sites. In some cases, the publisher might be MyNameHere.Com. Without having that listed on the page, though, someone would have to click each link to see if the publisher is reliable to their standards rather than have a nifty cheat sheet to look at. Karanacs 21:30, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
A newspaper *is* a publisher; the name of the paper is listed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:06, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Newspapers also have publishers. What I meant is that you don't need to include the name of the company that publishes the newspaper. Karanacs 19:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for doing that, I was very confused as to what was needed. What else does the article need for Featured Article status? --The_stuart 20:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comments—2a is a problem. And I picked out at random the following issues, which suggests that another run-through is required, preferably by fresh eyes.
    • "located" is redundant in the opening sentence.
    • "Two of its hotels, "Missouri Row" and "Oklahoma Row", were the largest log buildings in the world." Peculiar statement near the top of the lead. There are other problematic statements in the lead. Keep it mostly to "big-picture" stuff. Read WP:LEAD.
      • I feel like this statement and all others in the lead explain why Monte Ne is relevant. In other words, they are "big-picture" stuff. --The_stuart 22:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

That kind of point belongs further down, or in a travel brochure. The lead feels as though you're struggling to make the topic relevant/interesting.

    • "16 ft² (1.5 m²)"—MOS breach; read Units and measurements. This occurs elsewhere, too.
      • I do not understand this. I did not do the measurements conversions, that was MONGO. If you can explain the problem in more detail, I will try and fix it. --The_stuart 22:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't abbreviate main units on their first appearance. Thereafter, abbreviate them (like all converted units) only with consensus.

    • Infobox for "Railroad"—dash; breach of MOS. Why are the units here suddenly linked? Delink.
      • That is simply how the infobox works when "Old Gauge" is selected. --The_stuart 22:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't be a problem to fix.

    • Chaotic formatting (spaces, dots) in "Carl A. Starck, P. G. Davidson, A. L.Williams, B. R. Davidson, J. H. McIlroy, J.W. Kimmons, F.F. Freeman, J. F. Felker, Robert H. Harven and Thomas W Harvey".
        • Again, I don't understand what you are referring to, please explain. --The_stuart 22:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the spacing is inconstistent. Look carefully. So is the use of dots. Personally, I'd prefer no dots and no space between initials. But that's your choice. It must be consistent. Tony 13:05, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

    • Should be fixed now. --The_stuart 16:42, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Single-sentence para? Tony 11:02, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment -- first, congratulations user:the stuart on writing a good article about a little-known and fascinating piece of Americana. I have no doubt that this is now one of the best resources on Monte Ne on the web. My biggest suggestion is to improve the lead in order to make it more clear to the unfamiliar reader why the subject is interesting. I used to live near Monte Ne and I know why it's cool; but the reader doesn't get that from the first few sentences. Instead of saying "Monte Ne is an area that is located blah blah" why not say something like,
"Monte Ne is the site of a former planned resort community and health resort in Northwest Arkansas, begun in 1901 by the eccentric politician and financial theorist William Hope Harvey. Harvey's community, named Monte Ne, featured one of the earliest golf courses in the world, a railroad that was specially constructed for travel to the site, its own monetary system and the two largest log buildings in the world. Ultimately unsuccessful and uncompleted, the community lasted until the 1930s, when the Great Depression forced closure. In 1964, the entire community was flooded when Beaver Lake was constructed." Then maybe incorporate the rest of the current introduction, or the 2nd paragraph of it. I'd put the very specific location of the area in the first paragraph of the body, not the lead.
This suggestion is not a perfect intro, of course, and it's just a suggestion -- don't feel like you have to do anything! -- phoebe/(talk) 16:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Thank you for the suggestion. I'm currently working on the lead. --The_stuart 22:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Still little glitches, so a sift-through by someone else would be great.

  • "Oklahoma Row's "tower section" is one of the earliest examples of a multi-story cement structure,[2] and is also the only structure of Monte Ne standing today." What on earth is "also" doing here?
    • Fixed. --The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • "It is unknown when the distillery was built, but was owned in the 1830s by Abe McGarrah and his brother-in-law. They also operated a small store." False contrast in "but". Stubby and disjointed.
    • Fixed. --The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • " The house accidentally burned down a few months after they took up residence, and all of the family's possessions, including Harvey's large library, were lost. Harvey carried no insurance on the house, and after its destruction Anna went back to Chicago and returned to Arkansas only a few times thereafter for brief visits." Reference?
    • Fixed. --The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • MOS breach WRT quotation punctuation: because it "fit the tongue attractively." Tony 07:32, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
    • I need some clarification on this one, what should I do to fix the problem? What is WRT? --The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • 'Support - Other than any suggested cleanup above I have to say it is nice to see such a detailed article on a less prominante topic. Dalf | Talk 10:30, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment:
    • "Leaving his family behind in Chicago, Illinois, Harvey moved Rev. Bailey's run-down log house" Shouldn't that be "moved into"?
      • Yes, fixed. --The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • "The tiles were shipped from Chicago in five railroad cars." Is this really that important? Certainly, there were a lot of construction materials shipped in from all kinds of places.
    • fixed. --The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • "In April, Harvey began seeking industries to move to Monte Ne, but few actually did. Monte Ne's small downtown area had at one time a General store." Why is "general store" capitalized?
    • Now it isn't. --The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • "The course was also significant as the first golf course in the world had only opened a decade earlier." Why does this make the course significant?
      • Fixed. --The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
    • "Harvey sold the former Hotel Monte Ne, which then became known as the White Hotel before 1912, Randola Inn in 1918, and Hotel Frances in 1925, and for a time in 1930 as the Sleepy Valley Hotel. Monte Ne's larger hotels continued to be active after they, along with the dance pavilion and Elixir Spring, were foreclosed and sold at public auction." Was it still called Hotel Monte Ne at the time it was sold? If so, the word "former" should be removed.--Carabinieri 02:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
      • Fixed. --The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • MOS breaches in abbreviated main units (must be by consensus, and it's inconsistent, anyway), and ft superscript.
  • "300 foot (91 m) long wings"—MOS requires two hyphens, which the conversion makes clumsy or impossible. Reword: "wings 300 feet (91 m) long".
    • Fixed.--The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Railway Co. box: UNspaced en dash. MOS.
  • The Initials and dots for the names in Railroad are still inconsistent in spacing. Why did I bother going into it above?
    • Fixed. --The_stuart 17:11, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
  • "50-foot (15 m) gondola"—Hyhenate (MOS)
  • Bottom of "Roads"—Merge stub with previous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony1 (talk • contribs) 11:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment:
  1. I got very confused because the first footnote is numbered [2] in the text. I had to hunt around to find [1], which is in the infobox. Is there a way to fix that?

- Not that I am aware of. --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. Harvey's eccentric management is POV unless you source it to someone.

- Changed to simply "management syle. --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. Beaver Lake was not constructed, Beaver Dam was constructed.

-changed to created. --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. Although he was financially successful at silver mining in Colorado, Monte Ne seems to have been funded mostly by the sales of Harvey's writings - poor grammar. In this sentence, "Monte Ne" refers to the "he".

-Fixed. --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. Hotel Monte Ne, Missouri Row featured porches 575 feet (175 m) long. - I'm confused. Up to this point, I thought Hotel Monte Ne and Missouri Row were two different buildings. Am I confused?

-Inserted the word "both" to clarify that there are two buildings. --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. He managed to raise enough money to finish its construction when the hotel opened finally there was no gala event, as there had been with Missouri Row. - this sentence makes no sense whatsoever.

-Changed to this: " Harvey managed to raise enough money to finish Oklahoma Row, but due to his lack of funds when that hotel finally opened there was no gala event, as there had been when Missouri Row was finished." --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. The indoor pool was the first in Arkansas - citation needed.

-This fact was already cited once in the lead, I don't know the protocol so I went ahead and used the same citation again just for good measure. --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. Monte Ne also had the first golf course in Northwest Arkansas - citation needed.

-Changed to "Monte Ne also had the first golf course, which was built sometime before 1909" --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. Figuring that the mountains were approximately 240 ft high, Harvey planned to construct a massive concrete obelisk and its capstone would remain above the debris - what debris?

-I beleive the previous sentence explained this, but I rephrased it anyway to say: "He believed that the mountains around Monte Ne would eventually crumble and fill the valley with silt and sediment. Figuring that the mountains were approximately 240 ft high, Harvey planned to construct a massive concrete obelisk and its capstone would remain above the debris."--The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. In January 1929, he incorporated the Pyramid Association along with Lowell and H.L. Hardin of Kansas City - what does this mean?

-"In January 1929, Harvey along with Lowell and H.L. Hardin of Kansas City incorporated the project creating The Pyramid Association." --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. All that remains of the project is a retaining wall that remains under the waters of Beaver Lake most of the time - but according to one of the photos, the amphitheater still exists.

-The amphitheater wasn't technically part of the project. --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. In 1926, blood poisoning in his foot put him in a coma that lasted several days, surgery, and a three months of recuperation - terrible grammar. In fact, there's a lot of bad grammar, much of which I've fixed, but sentences like that just stand out like a sore thumb.

-Fixed --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. Harvey returned to politics after the 1929 stock market crash and the ensuing Great Depression - since he died in 1935, he did not return to politics after "the ensuing Great Depression".

-Harvey returned to politics after the 1929 stock market crash and the beginning of the Great Depression. He decided to run for the presidency.--The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. A resident of the area, Iris Armstrong opened up a girls' camp just east of the amphitheater in 1922. The Camp Joyzelle after the Maurice Maeterlinck play of the same name. - this makes no sense.

- She named it Camp Joyzelle after the Maurice Maeterlinck play of the same name. --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

But the second phrase is not a sentence. Corvus cornix 02:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
  1. In 1955 Dallas Barrack, a Springdale antique dealer, bought Oklahoma Row, and renovated it into an antique store called the Palace Art Galleries. He carried some of the finest antiques in the area and the splendor of the old hotel only added to their value. - lots of POV there.

He was to have carried "some of the finest antiques in the area" and believed that "the splendor of the old hotel only adds to their value." This is cited so the quotes should be ok. --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

  1. A new road was laid to the site where the tomb was placed on the crest of a hill donated by Harvey's longtime friends and neighbors Mr. and Mrs. Kenneth Doescher. - "a new road was laid to the site" of the old tomb, or of the new tomb?

-There was only one tomb, the tomb was simply moved. Thats pretty clear from the preceding few sentences about the broken flatbed truck. --The_stuart 01:15, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Corvus cornix 17:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
It's not clear whether the new road was built to where the tomb was, or where it was moved to. Corvus cornix 02:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
"A new road was laid to the new site of Harvey's tomb. The tomb was placed on the crest of a hill donated by..." --The_stuart 14:29, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Regarding author of referenced book, is it "Louis Snelling" or "Lois Snelling"?Rosiestephenson 20:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Lois, fixed --The_stuart 22:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Regarding order of listed references, is there a reason why they're in current order, vs. alpha?Rosiestephenson 20:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
    • No, but I wasn't sure how to order them alphabetically since some lack authors and others even proper titles. If you can tell me how, I will do it. --The_stuart 22:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
      • I suggest:
  1. alpha the books, by author.
  2. note_label the non-book entries. For example on how to do this, see "Indiana University (Bloomington)" article, Reference section, last three entries.
  3. alpha your note_label entries and place them, as a group, after the book entries.Rosiestephenson 05:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.