Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Marcus Trescothick/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 04:16, 23 October 2007.

[edit] Marcus Trescothick

After a long period of work, and comparisons with other FA cricket articles on Collingwood and Pietersen, both Mdcollins and I believe it is ready for FA. One possible issue may be inclusion of specific details, or the omission of some. There is some info on the talk page that was removed that those who wish to comment may wish to see. We look forward to any points made and will work to address them as quick as possible. Please check back to see what we have done about your points! SGGH speak! 16:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Remove this from Good article nominations page if you want this to be a FAC Buc 21:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment

  • Isn't "home town" just one word?Y Done
  • "technique, saying "he does not need" comma before quote I don't understand why this is a problem, could you show me what you mean?
  • "and his international debut in an One-day International" firstly it's "a" not "an". Also this doesn't quite sound right, is there a word missing? made his First-class debut for Somerset in 1993, and his international debut in a One-day International (ODI) against Zimbabwe is the full sentence, which I think makes sense
  • "He was often mocked by his Under-19 team mates for wearing an England blazer after his matches;" I think "His Under-19 team mates for wearing an England blazer after his matches often mocked him;" would be better. I think the first one sounds better, but I will wait for more opinions
  • "the Pakistan opener Imran Nazir was caught by Ashley Giles" I think "Ashley Giles caught the Pakistan opener Imran Nazir" would be better. Y Done
  • "Trescothick was largely outshone by Michael Vaughan" I think "Michael Vaughan largely outshined Trescothick" would be better. Y Done
  • "Trescothick stated that he will see how" change "will" to "would" Y Done
  • Section titles sound very informal I personally feel they fit well, but will await other input
  • "Trescothick was indeed named" "indeed" is redundent.Y Done

Buc 20:25, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

  • Why the two indents in the 2004 and 2005, the Ashes section?
Comment - it seemed a long quotation, and broke up the paragraphs, the quote being by Trescothick himself. Does it go against the MOS, or anything that you are aware of? –MDCollins (talk) 12:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "England were poor against Sri Lanka" POV
Referenced Y Done –MDCollins (talk) 12:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "Trescothick was largely outshone" "England were largely outplayed" why largely?
removed 'largely' Y Done –MDCollins (talk) 12:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "The hardest thing for me has been the pitches" even as a cricket fan I don't understand this. Lose the quotation mark and rephare it with something allow the lines of "Trescothick said that..."
I've found the full quote which makes more sense - I can't seem to word it any better. Does it help?? –MDCollins (talk) 12:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "few weeks.." two full stops
changed to ellipsis. Y Done–MDCollins (talk) 12:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
  • The stats seem a bit excessive.
comment but no more so than other cricket FACs such as Adam Gilchrist, Paul Collingwood, and it certainly doesn't over balance the length of the article. Is it a major problem?–MDCollins (talk) 12:40, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Buc 21:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments Buc, I hope you don't mind my chipping in on a couple of them, I have taken care of the others. SGGH speak! 23:30, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Support, I like what I see. Tony the Marine 23:02, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Comments re Buc:
      • "home town" is two words in my dictionary... (I've reverted change for a minute)
      • Gower link - tried to reword to avoid comma - better?
      • International debut sentence makes sense to me
      • "His Under-19 team mates for wearing an England blazer after his matches often mocked him;" - don't think that reads well at all as the verb is in the wrong place. Makes it sound German.
      • Section titles: I added those because 2001&ndash2002, Summer 2003, just sounded boring and when looking at the TOC don't really describe what is in the section. Comments?
    • Again, thanks for the comments. Feel free to come back and discuss them with us, and bring any others to the table that you might find!. –MDCollins (talk) 23:51, 1 October 2007 (UTC) (co-nom)

Comment Definitely not "His Under-19 team mates for wearing an England blazer after his matches often mocked him."! May not be grammatically incorrect, but would be very unusual use of the English language. I've got a suspicion that was generated by Microsoft Word's grammar checker trying to avoid the passive voice - you need to be very careful about using that grammar checker: it knows all the rules, but it's not very clever.

    • That is what I was thinking SGGH speak! 16:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Try "His Under-19 team mates often mocked him for wearing an England blazer after his matches" or "His Under-19 team mates often mocked him after matches for wearing an England blazer." depending on which is the case.4u1e 11:01, 2 October 2007 (UTC) Y Done SGGH speak! 16:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC) Further comment: Outshined?! Outshone was correct. Word was objecting to the use of the passive voice in the original phrase, which is easily fixed by writing it as: "Michael Vaughan largely outshone Trescothick." (Although I hope you have a reference for that, because it could be seen as a bit pov ;-)). Regarding use of the passive voice, while it is best to avoid it, you might want to keep it occasionally, because the article is about Trescothick. "Trescothick was outshone by Vaughn" is a statement about Trescothick, while "Vaughn outshone Trescothick" is a statement about Vaughn. Something to consider. 4u1e 11:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

      • I didn't change it to outshined :) but I did reorder it. SGGH speak! 16:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
        • I suppose I should have checked that first - I was just a bit alarmed by some of the recommendations! 4u1e 17:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Further further comment: "made his First-class debut for Somerset in 1993, and his international debut in a One-day International (ODI) against Zimbabwe is the full sentence". Try removing the comma after 1993, it's not needed, as far as I know. 4u1e 11:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

    • I think it flows better with the comma in because it provides pause for breath, seperates two topics slightly and preceeds a but/however, but that is just me lets see what others say. SGGH speak! 16:36, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
      • To clarify, I've got no objection to the comma myself, and (having brushed up on use of commas this afternoon!) you're right: it is technically correct to have it, although it could be left out as the meaning is clear without it. 4u1e 17:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

I'll do a proper review when I get the time. But initially, "His Under-19 team mates for wearing an England blazer after his matches often mocked him" is a crazy suggestion, it's Word's grammar checker gone mad. That, and the obsession of removing the passive voice somewhat detract from the review. I'll be back. The Rambling Man 07:35, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, some more extensive notes...
  • "One-day" or "One-Day" - consistency required. Y Done [and corrected back to meet WP:CRIC guidelines (One-day) –MDCollins (talk)]
  • "...He lives in Taunton, but Trescothick also owns..." - surname redundant...Y Done
  • "...rather unsurprising..." - PoV. Y Done
  • "Personal life and early career" section is a bit strange to read - you talk about his life and achievements outside sport before heading right back to the early days of amateur cricket. Just doesn't feel right. Y Done I have moved the latter section into the one below, i will see what mdcollins thinks of this move
  • "rewarded with a Somerset contract in 1993." needs citation. Y Done
  • "...exceptional run-accumulation..." - strange phrase, not good for non-experts. Y Done
  • Numbers less than 10 should be written out, so "...eight fifties and two centuries..." etc. Y Done I think I have all of them
  • "...century-maker ..." - bit peacock. Y Done
  • "However, Trescothick was awarded the NBC Denis Compton Award for the most promising young county player in the 1996 and 1997 seasons." needs citation.Y Done
  • Have you linked somewhere in the text to batting average and bowling average? Y Done bowling average is linked in the infobox, it isnt really mentioned in the prose to link from, batting average is also in the infobox but i have linked it at first mention in the text too
  • Use the en-dash for series results, so 4–1 not 4-1. Y Done
  • Citations should be in numerical order so [40][11] should be [11][40].Y Done'I didn't know that, but I think I have them all'
  • "..woeful.." - PoV. Y Done
  • "...fine series..." according to whom? Y Done changed to successful, hope that is suitable, plus 60 is a very successful average
  • "Trescothick was "rested" for the controversial winter tour of Zimbabwe..."
    • Why controversial?
    • Why is "rested" in quotes? Y Done - expanded for background. If it is too much of others and not enough Tresco, please edit. –MDCollins (talk)
  • "outstanding" - PoV. Y Done
  • "Trescothick was named as one of the five Wisden Cricketers of the Year for his achievements in 2005, and, with the rest of the English team, was awarded an MBE in the 2006 New Year honours list." - needs citation. Y Done
  • ...orchestrated by..." sounds sinister - deliberately so? Y Done - yes it was deliberate, but can't back it up so removed.
  • "2002–3 Ashes series" or "2002–03 Ashes series" (I'd go latter). Also for series in the records section. Y Done
  • "...rich domestic form..." bit peacock again. Y Done
  • "...one or two low scores..." - encyclopaedic?Y Done it was a bit daft now that an older section of text had been previously removed
  • Hints of over-wikilinking (Strauss is linked five times, for example).
  • "1 / 4" in ODI career performance table - spaces, none of the others do...Y Done
Here ends my comments after my first run-through the article. Hope they're helpful. The Rambling Man 15:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - will get onto these a bit later/tomorrow. Nothing looks controvesial so will just address. Any suggestions for the personal life/pre-Somerset section? Couldn't see how to split any other way without really short sections. –MDCollins (talk) 16:02, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
I had ago as I commented above. See what you think! I have taken careof many of them, but not all. Some I have left for Mdcollins simply because he wrote that section and it would be presumptious of me to change it myself when he is right here. SGGH speak! 09:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Thanks SGGH and Rambling Man. I've addressed the rest (about to do the overlinking). Rambling Man, if you've time for another read, it'd be much appreciated. I'm not particularly happy with the section headings, they are a bit POV (I made them!!), but just dates gets really boring. Any ideas/tips folks?–MDCollins (talk) 00:36, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
break
  • Should "Personal life" really be the lead section. Buc 09:35, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
...which was why Personal life and early cricket career (ie. pre-somerset) was linked together, before you moved it :-). It kept the cricket-in-family bit together too... –MDCollins (talk) 12:53, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
Was just trying it. Can move it back if you like :) SGGH speak! 13:01, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Why don't we leave the sections as they are, but move the Personal life to after domestic recovery, before Career records? Might need to touch up the prose a tiny bit. Parents names could go into Personal life section again if it is moved. I'm going to check if he is an only child. If you agree, feel free to go ahead, as I'm off to work. –MDCollins (talk) 13:49, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Because the other FA articles have personal life at the start. I think personally that it is better at the start, but perhaps expand it slightly, or recombine them? SGGH speak! 16:10, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I've merged them back, the opening section is now 'Early years and personal life'. I thought about expansion, but the article is long enough and it would detract from the more important text. –MDCollins (talk) 11:56, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Any other comments? SGGH speak! 08:43, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
    I'm going to give it another run this afternoon... The Rambling Man 08:54, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Further comment from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

Hey, good work on my comments. I do have reservations on a couple of section titles, namely "Continued success in 2003 and 2004" and "Glorious form leading to Ashes success, 2005". But that aside, it's a fine article. The Rambling Man 13:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the pov of that 2nd one and have tinkered with a couple of alternatives. SGGH speak! 13:31, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Comment: It's quite good. Needs a final sift-through to weed out many little issues.

  • The upper-case initials look a little awkward. Can you check them? Lower-case preferable if it doesn't go against established practice in the area. "... his First-class debut for Somerset in 1993, and was a regular for seven years before his international debut in a One-day International (ODI) against Zimbabwe in July 2000. His Test match debut came ...". Check MOS.
first-class was wrong in this case, and has been corrected. Test match, and One-day International are established practice with Wikipedia:WikiProject Cricket.
  • until a "stress-related illness" threatened his career—begs questions of why the quotes are used.
Was a quote, but the reference had been moved. Have now re-referenced it.
  • "He lives in Taunton, but also owns property in Barbados,"—why "but"?
Changed.
  • "As well as Tresco, Trescothick is also nicknamed Banger"—Reword.
Done
  • "Trescothick did not really get a chance to shine in the 2003 World Cup, because England did not qualify for the knock-out stages."—"Really" is unencyclopedic.
Removed.

Tony (talk) 04:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments dealt with, thanks. –MDCollins (talk) 11:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.