Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Leo Ornstein

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 03:22, 12 April 2007.

[edit] Leo Ornstein

Self-nomination. Stable article on a virtually forgotten, but once renowned (and notorious) musical figure, correcting a number of errors prevalent online. I'll continue to propose him as The Sex Pistols or Eminem of 1914 until someone thinks of an even nicer analogy. Almost three-quarters of a century later, he became the oldest published composer ever to produce a substantial new work. Thanks to bcasterline for a terrifically productive peer review.—DCGeist 06:42, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support Comment Really nice article. I'd just like to see a footnote covering "By the next year, he was the talk of the music scene in America as well for his performances of cutting-edge works by Schoenberg, Scriabin, Bartók, Debussy, Kodály, Ravel, and Stravinsky (many of them U.S. premieres), as well as his own, even more radical compositions." I'd also recommend a light copy edit of a few sentences including the above where "as well for his" doesn't quite flow. Here are some sentences I spotted.

• In re suggestions above: Footnote added. Ce done.—DCGeist 10:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• "the pogroms fueled by the so-called Union of the Russian People". Can pograms be fueled, that sounds strange?

• Edited.—DCGeist 10:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• "He began imagining and then writing works with new sounds, dissonant and startling." Although it is sadly more workmanlike, "with new dissonant and startling sounds" is easier on the eye.
• "he gave his first public performance of modernist, then known as "futurist," works in London." The "works" sticks out a bit due to the placement of the commas.

• Right. Edited.—DCGeist 10:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• "From 1915 through the early 1920s" be aware that this sentence jars to the British English reader. I don't know what the guidelines say about parochial phrases such as "through the", but it might be wise to seek a more universal phrase.

• Edited. Who knew "through the" was parochial? Have I hit it for a six or merely caught an edge?—DCGeist 10:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• "It appears that with this composition Ornstein became, by a couple years, the oldest published composer ever to produce a substantial new work". It appears? In the lead it is stated as fact.

• Right. Wrote section text first. Hedged. Wanted to rigorously fact-check to satisfy point beyond any reasonable doubt. Checked. Satisified. Added to intro. Forgot to revise section text. Now done. Thanks.—DCGeist 10:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

-- Zleitzen^(talk) 08:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Comment You might want to include a citation for the sentence about his death. Not to verify that he died and in what year, of course, but in reference to the location and circumstances. WesleyDodds 09:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Right. Added.—DCGeist 10:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

• Support Comment: Its very stong, but needs a copy edit. Some first pass suggestions:

• What does ca. signify in the opening sentence.

• The "circa" relates to the precise date of his birth--Ornstein celebrated it on December 2, but was never certain that was correct.—DCGeist 01:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• "he continued writing music for another half-century and beyond." - Why not just say eighty-seven (or whatever) years.

• Necessary imprescision: because the reference point is his "last public concert"--a significant reference point, as almost every discussion of Ornstein mentions his withdrawal from public performing, but also an imprecise one, as existing sources do not establish definitively when his last public concert was (see article note 46).—DCGeist 01:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• "He began imagining and then writing works with new sounds, dissonant and startling" - dissonant and startling new sounds. Both 'startling' and 'new' need to be specifically cited. "He began imagining" is redundant, all composition begins with "imagining".

• Of course, you're right that almost all compositions begin with imagining (there are exceptions, such as automatic writing and aleatoric methods such as John Cage's). In this case, Ornstein imagined his radical sounds for a while before daring to put them on the page--I'll provide the cites that cover both this fact and the description of "new sounds, dissonant and startling".—DCGeist 01:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

imagining is a very abstract and unmusical word; unless he used the term specifically, I'd recommend rephrasing as formulating. Ceoil 01:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

There's nothing particularly unmusical about it. Many composers describe dreaming some of their best music; Ornstein apparently imagined it while awake. I've provided a cite now. To quote the authors (Broyles and Von Glahn) on this point: "[S]uddenly in 1913, Ornstein later recalled, he heard strange chords and then entire pieces in his head." Ornstein himself is quoted: "I still wonder at the age of eighty, why should I have thought of that?... Why sudddenly that thing came into my head." Following your advice below to lean toward narrative prose rather than quotation, that's clearly much closer to "imagining" than "formulating." If you can think of a synonym preferable to "imagining," I'm happy to use it, or if you think I should quote in this case, I could do that.—DCGeist 07:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

No, in that context the word is ok.

• "His earliest such pieces unsettled Ornstein himself" - Sounds like it was written long, long ago (and I don't mean in 2003).

• Edited.—DCGeist 01:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• "he gave his first public performance of works then called "futurist," now known as modernist" - Is 'futurist' related to 'futurism', as that is very different to modernism; at least in a visual art context. Either way an inline cite is needed here, as many readers are likely to be confused.

Not clear what this cite should be to. His works were then widely called "futurist"; now they are widely referred to as "modernist." No, the 1910s use of "futurist" to describe avant-garde classical music had little to do with the Italian-rooted Futurist visual art movement.—DCGeist 07:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Explanatory note added.—DCGeist 16:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

• "But the reaction was by no means universally negative" - I can't put my finger on it, but the words 'but' and 'universally' jar here. 'However', 'some positive'?

Edited.—DCGeist 07:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• "the Musical Standard declared him " - to be.

Edited.—DCGeist 07:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• Are there sound files available for inclusion.

I'm half ways through the article, will repost later. Ceoil 01:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

• The lead could be expanded, maybe a mention of his Ukrainian nationality, and his mid-1970s rediscovery.

Done.—DCGeist 07:48, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• As a last point, some of the quotations could be converted to narrative to help readability. As a suggestion, remarks such as

"[H]e had been radical modernism's poster boy throughout the 1910s, and when he abandoned that style for one more expressive the ultramoderns reacted as a lover scorned. Not even Cowell, known for his accepting temperament, could forgive Ornstein" should be easily convered to transitional prose. Ceoil 19:20, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the responce, have switched to support. Ceoil 17:06, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Tony 22:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
• Supoort One quibble, although this is minor—a lot of the article says critic [x] says of this and person [y] said of this, I'd like to see a little less reliance on quotes. I guess this makes it avoid OR but it seems a little excessive, fine work overall though. Aaron Bowen 13:48, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Given his current obscurity relative to his once great importance, I do want to be careful to avoid any appearance of OR or inappropriate POV. At any rate, given your observation and Ceoil's above, I've just made a couple li'l changes, parapharasing quotes in order to switch them to narrative prose.—DCGeist 20:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.