Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Karmichael Hunt/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 01:11, 7 July 2007.

[edit] Karmichael Hunt

Self-Nomination. I have edited this article to hopefully a very well written article. SpecialWindler talk 08:00, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I will respond to queries within 24 hours. SpecialWindler talk 08:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. It is a well-written article. Two things: (1) some of the "Retrieved on:" dates are 2009! and (2) does he have a girlfriend? DrKiernan 11:08, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Reply. The 2009 things have been fixed, (don't know how it happened). And I know there should be more on his personal life, but there is no information throughout sources about it. SpecialWindler talk 11:37, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose (1a) - many choppy sentences which are not right, eg "Hunt joined the Broncos at the end of the 2003 season, bringing his scholarship, earned in 2001, to fruition. " with too many commas. By rewriting the sentence, you can avoid things like that. There were a few sentences with commas three or four times in the sentence with only three or four or two words in between. There were also a few contractions that I removed. I did a few examples of how the sentences can be smoothed out. Also, there are a lot of guys out there who will be tougher on your prose. Also you need to check through for weasel words and such. In instances where he is MotM, you don't need to put subjective words, just say he was adjudged MoTM. In one instance (I am from SA and don't know anything about rugby) it said ...he was good and had 18 runs....I just looked inside the source and changed it to note he had the highest nuimber of runs, which is better. There are some unusual things also which I didn't investigate closely. In one para, there is a sentence which is unrelated to the rest of the para saying that he became friends with a team-mate. Some of the idea cohesion in paragraphs do not seem good enough. Also, you are using Brisbane Broncos' website as a source. I don't think that is necesarily neutral. If you can find a 3rd party equivalent, that would be better. Also, I don't think you should use Broncos, but rather that Brisbane is a more appropriate term, but I'm not sure. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:25, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Doing... I will take your suggestions, and try and remove all the "choppy sentences", Note, that although the Brisbane Broncos website is a little biased, it still tells the facts, and is a news article. So. SpecialWindler talk 06:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Y Done sentence that dosen;t belong in a certain paragraph. SpecialWindler talk 10:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Y Done the short choppy sentences. SpecialWindler talk 07:55, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose at the present, for the following reason (in list form, so you can {{done}} them more easily):
    • "Premiership winning team" - Premiership-winning (dash)? Link to 2007 NRL Finals or something?
    • "Hunt made an excellent NRL debut in 2004 and was named the Dally M rookie of the year" - Winning an award says he was excellent, and it's generally better to avoid judgemental terms in the (summary-style) lead, where it isn't referenced or backed up by stats.
      • N Not done I don't quite get what you mean. SpecialWindler talk 09:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
        • Try to avoid using judgemental words ("excellent") in the lead, especially when they are redundant, given you have decided not to reference the lead (which is fine). Daniel 09:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
    • "His manager asked the 15-year-old what he wanted to do in the future. Hunt responded that he wanted to play first grade, the highest level of rugby league, in his rookie season" - Doesn't sound terribly biographical or encyclopedic, but maybe that's just me.
    • "and he was arguably the best player in the competition" - WP:WEASEL, perfect case.
      • N Not done reworded a little, but I feel its still weasling. The obvious solution would be to remove the statement, but it is an important fact. SpecialWindler talk 09:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
    • "He played in the Under 17 Queensland team, and along with Anton LaVin" - If LaVin's notable enough to get that isolated mention (LaVin seems notable by it), then link to his article (even if it's a redlink at this stage).
    • That jersey in "Debut season" (green and black) doesn't look much like the Broncos.
      • N Not done Green and black?? Hmm. No offence, but are you colourblind. Sorry... It seems maroon and yellow to me. It is the Kit (sport) design, not a perfect replica of the jersey. (But I don't know where you got green and black) from. SpecialWindler talk 09:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
        • It looks green and black in my browser. http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/4163/greenblacksm4.jpg (Inset is the image page, when I click on it). Daniel 09:45, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
          • No, still looks maroon and yellow to me. even on that page. Maroon is the main colour, yellow the edges, and grey in the background. Is it Maroon, in the QLD jersey in the lower part of the article. SpecialWindler talk 10:03, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
            • Just a note - it looks like fluorescent green and brown to me. Maybe you should consider checking a different browser to double check? mdmanser 10:22, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
            • I see fluorescent green and brown in both Moz and IE. The other two jerseys (and all other headers) look the same in both browsers. It's just the Broncos jersey that is off. Florrie 23:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
    • "Hunt joined the Broncos at the end of the 2003 season" - After calling them the "Brisbane Broncos" for the first time in the section, I have no qualms with the "Broncos". However, the first mention needs to be full, and possibly even linked as well.
    • "asking the NRL to protect Hunt with more penalties" - NRL hasn't been used fully, nor has it been linked yet, in this section.
    • "The Broncos made it to the qualifying finals but were knocked out of the NRL competition in the semi-final" - reference, it stands out because it's the last sentence of the section.
    • Find a better section title than "Second year syndrome".
      • Doing..., trying to think of one, if not will just go with "2005" SpecialWindler talk 09:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
    • "Coach Wayne Bennett advised Hunt to be a teenager in the off season, so that it would not affect his second year in first-grade rugby league" - what's 'being a teenager' mean? Were these Bennett's exact words?
      • Y Done they wern't bennetts exact words, so, I just added meaning. SpecialWindler talk 21:29, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
    • "Hunt scored less tries and had less kick returns, but was retained at his preferred fullback position for the entire year" - Reference.
    • "In the seventh minute of the round 6 game, Hunt was knocked unconscious by a Shaun Timmins high tackle" - was it high? Was it penalised during the game? Did Timmins get suspended?
    • "During 2005, Hunt made an inconsistent showing, with patches of both good and bad form" - Reference!
    • "He was again overlooked for the 2005 State of Origin series" - Overlooked? To be overlooked, you must be considered the favourite for getting selected. If he was, reference.
      • Y Done he wasn't the favourite, so I'll change the wording. SpecialWindler talk 09:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
    • "Hunt performed particularly well as halfback" - 'Particularly well'? Why not just 'well'?
    • "During his injury, early in the morning on..." - This whole paragraph needs a ton more references, if only for BLP's sake.
      • What does BLP stand for SpecialWindler talk 09:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
        • N Not done. The two references at the end of the paragraph, reference the whole paragraph. SpecialWindler talk 21:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
    • "When Hunt's contract ended at the end of 2006 the Broncos' concern mounted as to whether they would be able to retain him or not" - References, please. And references that the Broncos were concerned, not just the media being concerned that the Broncos may be concerned.
    • "The Broncos could only offer Hunt about AU$200,000 a season" - Link AU$
    • "The South Sydney Rabbitohs may have even offered Hunt up to AU$500,000 a season" - Link to Souths.
    • "Hunt signed with the Broncos for a further three years. Cullen announced that" - Who's Cullen?
    • "Hodges was impressive in the position" - Reference.
    • "This allowed him to bring different styles of play to the Broncos' attack" - Unneeded in a biography article, very general, unreferenced, and arguable.
    • "However Hunt, played an exceptionally good game in Round 15 against the West Tigers, scoring three tries, assisting in a try and gaining an exceptional 281 metres in the Broncos win" - double usage of 'exceptional'/'exceptionally'. I'd ditch the second one, personally.
    • "This move had the full support of Bruno Cullen" - again, who is this Cullen bloke? Chairman? Random guy down at the local?
    • "confirmed his loyalty to Australia" - is there another word for 'loyalty' that can be used in this sentence? Playing for Australia in rugby league rather than New Zealand is different to being loyal (which is a subjective term) to the team, and different again from being '[loyal] to Australia'.
      • Y Done changed tp alligence, though that makes two alligeances in one sentence. SpecialWindler talk 09:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
    • "But Hunt was overlooked" - as the above 'overlooked' comment.
    • "His good form in 2006 paid off [71] when he was" - ditch the reference which is in the middle of a sentence, and not even near a comma.
    • "performed fairly well" - just 'well'.
    • "In the end, Australia won 50-12" - Change this sentence to remove 'In the end'.
    • "to stay with incumbent Origin fullback Matt Bowen" - Link 'incumbent'

I will want to have another look at this, and possibly get more structural issues and a little bit more prose, but that should entertain you for a while. Daniel 08:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, for some of the little things, I will do the references over the next day. SpecialWindler talk 09:36, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Quality of references I've noticed Brisbane Broncos News is used a fair bit as a reference. It is not a totally NPOV source of citation. Look at this glowing article: [1] Third party sources are more reliable. Michellecrisp 11:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not totally knowledgable about the NPOV, but I basically understand that it should be nuetral/ not biased. After reading the WP:NPOV article, it seems that it has notihing on citations. But even so, why arne't they reliable sources, even if they were a little biased towards their own team, its the same as a Sydney newspaper talking about QLd. And from the Brisbane Broncos News website, I only use the information from the page and do not elaborate in what some of the biased things are. SpecialWindler talk 22:31, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
So your saying that [2] is better thatn the above. It tells the information, below though you need a fee. SpecialWindler talk 22:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I would be less worried about NPOV, and more about WP:RS. It would be best to replace the Broncos News page with newspaper articles wherever possible. Recurring dreams 22:43, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
My point is sources and references need to be independent and third party where possible. A club's own website (most probably written by a media manager/spin doctor paid by the club) is not an independent source. Do you think the Broncos management would allow anything critical to be published on their website? of course you may encounter some bias from a Sydney newspaper writing about Qld, but it would be far less biased than the Broncos website. Essentially the Broncos website is a self published source. I've encountered this before on Wikipedia with Liberal students using Liberal websites to citate their claims. Michellecrisp 00:41, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.