Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/James Milner/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 04:16, 23 October 2007.

[edit] James Milner

self-nomination I first discovered this article like this and I’ve been trying to expand it for the last couple of months. It’s already an A-Class article, had 2 PR and I’ve checked all areas of the FA criteria and IMO it covers them. I’ve been told that the fact the subject being so young is not an issue in terms of getting it to featured status, obviously it will be in terms of keeping it there. Buc 09:38, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comments

1. any reason why first name of author in ref 19 is in caps?
   • Because that's how it reads in the article. Does it matter? Buc 14:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
2. please choose between BBC or BBC sport e.g. ref 15 versus ref 18.
   • Fixed, they all say BBC now. Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
3. any reason why icnetwork is italicised in refs 46 and 49 but icnewcastle in refs 40 etc. is not? There are other obvious examples; basically, why are some site names italicised and the majority isn't?
   • The italics are the ones with the "work" lable. I've changed them all to "publisher" now. Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
4. any reason why some ref site names have .com/.co.uk etc. but others don't?
   • What's the rule here? Buc 14:33, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
     • consistency. Chensiyuan 15:08, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
       • Remove .com. Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
5. any reason why some ref site names are wikilinked (BBC, the FA), but some that can be wikilinked are not? (soccernet, sky sports)
   • soccernet, sky sports now linked. Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
6. correct me if i'm wrong, but "Leeds also insisted that he would not be sold, the chairman of the team at the time even referred to him as "the future of Leeds"." -- any grammatical issues?
   • You tell me. The grammer checker on my computer has no problem with it and it wasn't toughed during the copyedit. I honestly couldn't tell you. Buc 14:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

   That is, in fact, wrong. Fixed. --carelesshx _talk 20:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

   Thanks. Chensiyuan 03:38, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

7. please ensure that wp:date is complied with -- re: wikilinking months/days. I'm actually not 100% sure if all months/days should be wikilinked though, but it seems to be the case.
   • As far as I know only full day/month/year dates should be linked. Buc 14:28, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
     • Let me extract the relevant portion of wp:date -- "Full dates, and days and months, are normally autoformatted". Chensiyuan 03:40, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
       • Ok all dates are linked. Buc 07:25, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
8. "Milner has a good discipline record; he has been booked only 15 times in his career and has never been sent off." -- I don't disagree with the conclusion that he has a good record, but i can imagine people objecting to this inference...
   • Removed "good" and "only". Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
9. spelling: should it be play-off or playoff? Chensiyuan 13:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
   • playoffs Buc 19:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
10. The "style of play section" really reads like a collection of random statements in some parts. The prose should flow better. Take a closer look at the thematic organisation -- you're saying, in the following order:
    1. He's unselfish and provides assists
    2. He is bored when not playing (but which professional isn't? What's the point of saying this?)
    3. He can pass but cannot defend
    4. He takes setpieces
    5. He reads the game well
    6. He has pace
    7. He can pass (second time passing is mentioned but done several sentences later)
    8. He is seldom booked
    9. He is praised for his pace (second time pace is mentioned but done several sentences later)
    10. He has a good work ethic
    11. Wayne Rooney taking pressure off him
    12. Skysports rating. Do you see where I'm coming from? Chensiyuan 14:14, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
        • • I'm not the best person to deal with this. But the article has just had a copyedit. I guess this section was neglected. Tried to impoved at little though. I've tried to link a few of the sentences together and I've moved a few of them around. Where I can't find a link I've started a new paragraph. Buc 14:33, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

• I've copy-edited Buc's changes a little bit. It's still not perfect but I think it is more readable and less list-y now. --carelesshx _talk 15:02, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

• In the third para of the lead, the mention of his easygoing personality is rather abrupt. Chensiyuan 17:06, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Are you suggesting I remove it? Buc 17:13, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Because the lead is meant to summarise the article, something about his style of play (which includes his personality it seems) has to be in the lead. Given the rather substantial content in "style of play", something about it has got to be mentioned in the lead. Chensiyuan 17:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
      • Added another sentence. Buc 18:19, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

• Comment The article looks in really good shape overall. I would suggest the line on his Skysports rating is added to one of the other paragraphs. A one sentence paragraph looks a bit disjointed. Was the rating for the previous season or does it also include this season's performances? This might be worth including. Dave101→talk  19:49, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
  • It's the current rating. Buc 20:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Support All outstanding issues have been addressed so I'll support. Dave101→talk  18:54, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

• Support (I hadn't forgotten about you Buc, i was waiting for you to fix The Rambling Man's problems.) Woodym555 21:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Neutral Chesiyuan brings up some pertinent concerns. The quality and flow of the prose is not perfect. The constant use of 'however, also despite,' sometimes all in the same sentence multiple times really degrades the quality of the prose. Per 1a "Well written" means that the prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard. This article simply isn't brilliantly written. I will have a look at again and see if i can have a go at fixing some of the problems. Until the prose is improved (at least until Chesiyuan's concerns are met) i cannot wholeheartedly support its promotion. Woodym555 13:32, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

What's the problem with using however, also and despite? Buc 18:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with using them occasionally (note emphasis). Yet, when it is used repeatedly in the same paragraph, it gets repetitive and shows underlying problems with the prose. It simply doesn't flow well and it certainly isn't engaging. Again, i will have a look when i can and see what i can do. Woodym555 19:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

• Comment however this FA proceeds, serious kudos to Buc who's been the powerhouse behind this article's massive improvements. --Dweller 12:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Is that a support? If so please say so. Buc 14:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
• Support Have had it in mind to review for some time, but only now got round to it. Sorry. Great article that's improved immeasurably. I like what you've done with the two boxed quotes. Minor niggle, that I think a rose-tinted-spectacles comment from a nn kids' team coach might be given undue prominence, but doesn't detract from this being an FA quality article. Caveat - I know very little about photo licensing and I urge someone who understands the issue to confirm that all of the pix are properly licensed. --Dweller 09:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I have perssion to use the three I uploaded. Another was taken by the user who uploaded it. James Milner 17.jpg may be an issue though. Buc 10:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    • I think James Milner 17.jpg is fine. The correct licence has been applied at Flickr. The Rambling Man 10:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

• "...four major national clubs ..." - Swindon major? I'd opt for something like "four English professional clubs". Major is VERY subjective.
• "He once held the record for the youngest player ever to score in the Premier League, as well as second youngest player ever to play in the Premier League." is then repeated pretty much straight away in the next paragraph. Is there any need to have it in both places?
  • It's in a seprate section though so I think it's ok. Buc 11:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Separated by about two sentences? No, I think if it's important enough to be repeated in should go in the lead. The Rambling Man 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
      • It is. Buc 12:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
        • So you've got the same information three times? It's too much. The Rambling Man 13:00, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
• "impressed many reporters", "impressed several reporters" - in same para, makes for poor reading.
• "promising displays" - POV unless you can quote it.
• "Tottenham Hotspur, Aston Villa and Everton all expressed an interest in him,[7] but Milner rejected Tottenham's offer because they were based too far from his family home." - did he therefore not reject Villa or Everton?
  • The ref doesn't say anything eles. But my guess would be Villa and Everton never actually made an offer they just expressed interest. Buc 11:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Well it needs to be clarified that only Spurs made an offer then. The Rambling Man 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
• "fiasco" - POV.
• "so some have doubted..." - reword something like "which has led some to doubt..."
• Order citations numerically.
• "... as well as taking the ball past defenders. He therefore does not score many goals,..." - that doesn't work for me. If he takes balls past defenders it's not a logical conclusion to state that he won't score many goals.
• Place [50] per WP:CITE.
• "He currently has an overall player rating of 6.6 out of 10 by SkySports.com." - this needs explanation for the non-expert (which is important for FAC). Is 6.6 good? What does it represent? How is it calculated?
  • I've been wondering for a while now if it might be best to remove the altogether. Buc 11:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Well I'd agree unless you can demonstrate its significance. The Rambling Man 11:38, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

These need to be sorted out before FAC can be supported. The Rambling Man 10:51, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

• Ok I think I've fixed all issue raised now. Buc 14:27, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
  • You've now got the record number of appearances for England U21s three times. The Rambling Man 17:37, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "Under-21" or "under-21"? Consistency needed. The Rambling Man 19:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
    • N Not done - still issues here. The Rambling Man 07:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Odd I thought I'd done this. Anyway fixed now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bole2 (talk • contribs) 07:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose --> Neutral: there's no denying the amount of hard work gone into this article but making it satisfy criterion 1a is ever difficult for plenty of people. The difficulty of meeting 1a could be partly attributed to Milner's young age (cf. an older and more accomplished footballer where there's a ton of material to work and organise around), but as suggested by users here and elsewhere, one of the solutions is to cut out the more trivial bits and at the same time still show exactly why Milner's life is a compelling read. Chensiyuan 10:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

there's something about this article that doesn't allow me to support its FA candidature. The flow of the article is strange in too many parts. Just some e.g.:

• • "He has since established himself in the Newcastle first team and has now made over a hundred appearances for them. He creates scoring chances and does not score many goals. Outside of football he is an easygoing person who rarely speaks to the media." -- we all know the lead is a summary, but this is really taking it too literally.
    • What are you suggesting? More info, less, wording? Buc 16:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "Milner himself said he would like to join Villa because of the probability of being a regular starter, but admitted that his future was beyond his control.[29] Milner was generally seen as a positive signing in what was a disappointing season for Villa.[30]" -- don't see the connection between the second and first sentence even if i read both in the context of the paragraph they belong to.
    • Tried rewording it. Buc 16:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
  • ditto the first and second paragraph of "Return to Newcastle United". In fact the whole section seems to be one-sentence summaries after another of his 2005-2007 milestones but nothing more. It's symptomatic of the whole article really.
    • Reworded. Buc 17:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
  • really too much usage of "he states" "he believes" "he is described as" etc. throughout the article
    • What should it be? Buc 16:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
      • If you don't think it's overused, then there's no need to change it. Otherwise, there's really plenty of ways to give the phrasing some variety. Chensiyuan 01:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
        • Is "he states" "he believes" "he is described as" "he said" "confirmed that" and "was reported" not enough of a variety already? Buc 07:06, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Doing... another copyedit requested Buc 20:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC) Ok I've improved the flow of the article now but I still need more information on other issues raised. Buc 20:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

• (Change from Strong to) Weak Oppose per above. For all good intentions this article reads in too many spots like a repository of select content from newspapers/websites and so on. Can somebody also explain why "prestigious" is in inverted commas? Beyond that, consider too -
  • It a quote. Buc 16:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
    • I know it's a quote but it is misleading rather than helpful.
      • How is it misleading? Buc 17:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
        • Maybe not misleading, it simply looks awkward. Chensiyuan 04:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
          • I can't remove them because it would become POV then. I'll try rewording it.Buc 09:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)Buc 07:08, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

1. His earliest memory of Leeds is watching them win the FA Youth Cup in 1993.[3] He also showed talent in cricket and played for the Yorkshire Schools team, --> also what?

• • Umm, also showed talent in cricket and played for the Yorkshire Schools team? What are you getting at. Buc 16:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
    • "Also" is completely misused.
      • Removed. Buc 16:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

1. Milner believed the chance to play with Smith worked as a learning curve because Smith had done what Milner aspired to do — to come through the Academy and play for the first team.[3] Making good progress at the academy, he was taken on as a trainee after leaving school. He remarked that he had to pinch himself playing alongside first team players such as David Batty and Olivier Dacourt, but also said he did not want to get excited and think that he "had already made it".[2] He continued to improve his skills with the youth team, playing for the Republic of Ireland at Under-14 level and England at Under-15 and Under-17 levels.[1][5] He helped England win the 2002 Under-17 Nationwide summer tournament against Italy, Czech Republic and Brazil, with a goal against the latter.[6] --> after referece number 3, it's "he" all the way. Not right.

• • Really? What's the rule here? Buc 16:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Rules of the English language.
      • Ok and what is that rule? Buc 16:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
        • I suspect that given the way it's phrased "he" could refer to more than Milner. Chensiyuan 11:23, 8 October 2007 (UTC)
          • Ok every praragraph has "Milner" when he is first mentioned now. Buc 11:51, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

1. He has also established himself in the England under-21 side --> what does this mean?

• • He's a regular in the England under-21 side. Buc 16:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
    • I assure you they are not perfectly synonymous.
      • Reworded. Buc 16:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Just some examples. Manderiko 16:40, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Doing... another copyedit requested Buc 20:58, 5 October 2007 (UTC) Ok I've improved the flow of the article now but I still need more information on other issues raised. Buc 20:40, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

*We all know the lead is a summary, but this is really taking it too literally.

• • Need more information on what exactly the problem is.
    • I presume it's a criticism that the Lead is too long. It's slightly excessive, though not madly. See if you can prune it down to four paragraphs, while making the overall length slightly shorter too. Remove the least important bits. --Dweller 08:17, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
      • I think you did well. NB relevant link for your reference is WP:LEAD --Dweller 08:48, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

It’s a bit of a mess now so I’m just to summaries outstanding issues.

• Really too much usage of "he states" "he believes" "he is described as" etc. throughout the article
  • Need more information on what exactly the problem is.
    • Not very elegant writing. You can toss "confirmed" into the mix too. The point is, this being a potential FA, i.e. the very best of Wikipedia, the writing's got to be impressive. Right now, it's good, readable and sound, but not setting the sort of standard an FA should set. Looking at some of the other FAs on sports personalities, the biographies truly come alive because the prose is such a joy to read, and the organisation and selection of content are pivotal to that too. The long and short of it is meeting criteria 1a. To be fair this article has undergone plenty of copyediting but if you read the various advice on how to satisfy 1a you'd realise it's one of the most difficult tasks to meet. Chensiyuan 02:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
      • You'll have to give me an example of what would work for you. Clearly you can see something I can't because I've proof read it many times as well as compering it to current FA. How about if I put them all in quotes and put "he said" instead?Buc 07:19, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
• “He also showed talent in cricket and played for the Yorkshire Schools team” also what?
  • Don’t really understand this question. I’ve removed the “also” but I don’t know if that’s really what you meant.
• "He has also established himself in the England under-21 side" what does this mean?
  • I’ve rephrased it but again don’t know if that’s really what you meant.
• "Just some examples."
  • Ok if you let me know what the other issues are I’m happy to fix them.
• The flow of the article should be ok now but I’m not really an expert on that sort of thing so you might want to check it.

Buc 14:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

• "At Under-17 level he helped England win the 2002 Under-17 Nationwide summer tournament against Italy, Czech Republic and Brazil, with a goal against the latter." -- this sentence is clumsy (no need to repeat under-17); "latter" may not be the best word to use in this context; the national teams cannot be wikilinked? Anyway, the prose has improved, so kudos to those who helped with that aspect. I will change my vote above... Manderiko 15:22, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "the national teams cannot be wikilinked" no because we are taking about the u17 teams here. Buc 18:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
• "At the start of the 2003–04 season, Milner was sent on a month-long loan to Division Two side Swindon Town to gain experience as a first team player, which he saw as a valuable experience." -- did he think it was a valuable experience before, or after the stint? I do not think the sentence makes it clear. Manderiko 15:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Both fixed Buc 18:57, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Further comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

• Ballboy links to a disambiguation page which is confusing for the non-expert reader.
  • It doesn't have it's own article. I guess I could red link.
    • Well right now there are two definitions on that page which could apply. The Rambling Man 08:07, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Fixed
• "...his main role to the team ..." - role in the team or contribution to the team?
  • Added "in"
• "He does not however score many goals." - well, you've already said what his main contribution is so why "however..." - frankly this sentence is not needed in the lead.
  • Removed
• Why link Republic of Ireland to Republic of Ireland#Sport and not the national football team? I know it's under 14s only but surely more relevant...
  • If I did that I'd have link Italy, Czech Republic and Brazil under 17 teams too.
    • Yes, and the problem with that is what? The Rambling Man 08:02, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
      • Just making sure you know. Fixed.
• Peter Taylor links to a disambiguation page.
  • Fixed
• "...things changed ..." - things?
  • Not sure what you want here but I've changed it to "the situation"
• [25] is incorrectly placed.
  • ******Moved
• "Although Roeder also praised the way Milner had handled the failure of the Villa transfer, he himself was criticised for the way he had handled the negotiations with Villa, he refused to apologise for this however. He also confirmed that he would play Milner in "plenty of games". This proved to be the case, as Milner started the season playing regularly in the first team and remained a starter for the entire season." not cited.
  • Moved ref
• "sub-par" - strange word. Is it a direct quote?
  • No. I didn't add this so I don't know why it's there. Removed as it seems a bit redundent.

The Rambling Man 07:33, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

All addressed in some way Buc 07:54, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

• "Making good progress at the academy. Milner was taken on as an academy trainee after leaving school." -- comma? or? Chensiyuan 03:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose (again) -- the emergence of new problems and the re-emergence of old problems have prompted a change of mind:
  • please explain why his family being season ticket holders satisfies wp:lead vis-a-vis "summarizing the most important points"?
  • "However, his father insisted that he still attend college once a week to keep up with his education." -- there is a redundancy amongst one of the italicised in my opinion.
  • "He represented England at level Under-20 at the 2003 World Youth Championship." -- most times "level" does not precede "under" in this article.
  • "However, Leeds United's fortunes were different as they struggled in the league. The team received a lot of negative attention from the media and several first team players were sold. However, Milner believed that experiencing this made him emotionally stronger and taught him how to deal with team problems." -- just an e.g. of excessive "however"s in this article; back to back ones are not particularly elegant (there is another :however" a couple lines later again; "despite", "also" and "confirmed" are also used rather gratuitously in this article).
    • This is because of the piont you raised about there not being much of a flow to the article. They are used to link facts together. Buc 13:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • "As well not making a Milner regular in the Newcastle side, Souness also controversially remarked that the club would not win "with a team of James Milners"." -- as well as, and also?
  • "Although Milner's response to this statement was reported as "mature", he did confirm that he was frustrated at not being used as a starter for most of the season.[21][22] Despite playing less at club level, Milner did score his first goal for the England Under-21 side during the 2004–05 season." -- why the sudden migration to "did"?
  • "This, as well as the fact that Villa had a lack of transfer funds, in addition to O'Leary leaving the club, meant a deal regarding signing Milner permanently, appeared unlikely." -- clumsy.
  • "A moved to Villa appeared to have been agreed, but at the last moment Newcastle recalled Milner and the talks broke down." -- obvious error.
  • "Newcastle's players and manager Glenn Roeder reacted positively to Milner's return, at the start of the 2006–07 season." -- not a very conventional way of stating things.
  • "On 1 January 2007 he scored his first goal for Newcastle, of the season." -- obvious error.
  • "Also during the season, Milner displayed his ability to play comfortably on awayway the field by scoring and setting up goals with both feet from both sides." -- obvious error.
  • "After Milner's performance in this Championship it was rumoured that he would make his full England debut in a friendly against Germany, but in the end he was to included in the squad for the match." -- obvious error.
  • "It also allows him to pass the ball to teammates making forward runs, from a range of positions on the field. This awareness has also given him the confidence to take on defenders." -- also, also, also.
  • All this, without first mentioning 1a. of FA criteria is still not satisfied, viz. brilliant prose. Chensiyuan 13:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

All fixed

• I'm going to contest that right off: "He supported Leeds United from a young age and was a season ticket holders at the club."; "This, the fact that Villa had a lack of transfer funds and O'Leary leaving the club, meant a deal regarding signing Milner permanently, appeared unlikely." Could comb through for more but it's late here. Chensiyuan 15:23, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • What's wrong with them? Buc 18:58, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Removed all the "also" and "however" that I can but there a still a lot where it wouldn't sound right without them. Buc 19:16, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
    • "and was a season ticket holders at the club". (plural?) The other sentence is poorly constructed. Try something like: The resignation of O'Leary and the lack of transfer funds at Villa Park, meant that a deal to sign Milner permanently seemed unlikely. (needs reffing as well) Woodym555 19:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
    • O'Leardy didn't resign but I take your piont. Buc 19:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Oppose—Poorly written. Please find a copy-editor who's unfamiliar with the text.

• It's already had about 5. Buc 17:13, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• "James Philip Milner (born 4 January 1986, Wortley, West Yorkshire) is an English footballer who plays as a winger and left-sided midfielder, for the English club Newcastle United." Just run past me why the comma is appropriate in the opening sentence. Y Done
• "long distance running"—Hyphen required; it's even pipe-linked to an article with the hyphen. Y Done
• He "was a season ticket holder at the club"? Is that notable enough to have right at the top?
  • I think so. Buc 19:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• "Milner began his career at Leeds United, by joining the Leeds United academy in 1996." Another errant comma. Y Done
• "his first appearance for the first team"—Ungainly rep.
  • What saying "first" twice? Buc 19:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• "While at Leeds United, Milner spent some time on loan at Swindon Town to gain first team experience"—Last three words won't be clear to non-experts. Remove "some".
  • Disagree. "some" is a useful modifier, excluding "much". Last three words aren't jargon, but first-team should be hyphenated. --Dweller 12:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• "At Under-17 level he helped"—Comma would be easier for our readers, as you've used elsewhere in this context. Tony (talk) 14:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
• "Milner with Leeds during the 2002–03 season."—This caption is not a full sentence: see MOS on captions. Y Done
• "The final total paid was £5,000,000 after a certain number of appearances"—Don't we know how many?
  • No, ref doesn't say. Buc 21:35, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• "Warm-up" image: you couldn't sharpen it and add saturation, could you? Software for doing this is commonplace.
• "and his teammates and is regarded is being fairly quick"—A gem. Tony (talk) 14:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

• Those were examples of why the whole article needs attention, not the full deal. Tony (talk) 03:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok I'd love to know what other problems are so I can fix them. Buc 19:48, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
  • I've read over this about 5 times and aksed for copyedits about 4 times and it's still prooly written over the whole article? Buc 17:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
    • Tony's standards are, rightfully, very high. Take his advice, find a non-footballing copy-editor and request a full and thorough review. Unfortunately, just because us folks at WP:FOOTBALL may find the article interesting and well written, those who have no background in the game may be mystified. So be patient and follow Tony's wise words. The Rambling Man 17:28, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
      • It's already had about 5. Buc 18:16, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
        • Five from people not interested in football? I doubt it. That's the key, you see, ensuring this article is approachable and interesting to folks who have never even heard of football. The Rambling Man 18:19, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
          • Yes Buc 18:22, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
            • Well perhaps the wrong people were involved. My final comment is that all Tony is here to do is ensure that FA = best quality. As far as I can see he has no personal grudge so it seems like you need to working on it. The Rambling Man 18:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
              • Do you know anyone I could ask? Buc 18:33, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

• Support - but one minor point. I would change the set-out of the article possibly too:

1 Early life

2 Career

2.1 Leeds United

2.2 Newcastle United

2.3 Aston Villa

2.4 Return to Newcastle United

3 Style of play

4 Career statistics

5 References

6 External links

Basically so that all the club names are on the same level - I think it looks better like that. Davnel03 18:54, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't want to do that because he only went on loan to Aston Villa. Buc 19:40, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose for now Great content and I admire the hard work that's gone into this article. The prose really needs some work though. I see that the article has gone under the copy editing knife quite a few times, and a lot of the problems have been fixed. However, I think one major issue which detracts from the readability are the unwieldy subordinate clauses, examples of which I have italicized below:
• "he did confirm that he was frustrated at not being used as a starter for most of the season."
• "As well as not making Milner a regular in the Newcastle side, Souness controversially remarked..."
• "a clause in Newcastle's purchase of Nolberto Solano from Aston Villa resulted in Milner being loaned to Villa for the rest of the season."
• "Leeds' eventual relegation to the Championship led to speculation over Milner's future at the club, despite having signed a five-year deal with Leeds the previous year."

Do you get what I mean about the subordinate clauses? Another problem is run-ons, such as:

• "In a match against Chelsea a month later, Milner scored again using a first touch of the ball that was described as "a beauty" and allowed him to avoid a tackle from Chelsea defender, Marcel Desailly, this created a yard of space for him to deliver a curling shot a goal from 18 yards away" And I don't quite understand "using a first touch of the ball"
• "At the start of the 2003–04 season, Milner was sent on a month-long loan to Division Two side Swindon Town to gain experience as a first team player, which, prior to the stint, he saw as an experience which would be valuable to him progressing as a player." Again, this is unwieldy. Although the grammatical structures may be technically correct, some of them are very long and unwieldy. Rewording some of these structures would improved readability immensely. Jeff Dahl (Talk • contribs) 20:51, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

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