Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of Burnside

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[edit] History of Burnside

This article details the history of Burnside, a local government area in Adelaide, Australia. The article is well written and referenced; it has undergone both peer review and community scrutiny. It is primarily of my own work, my third featured article nomination, and hopefully my second featured article. Any objections will be dealt with reasonably and as soon as possible; if you are supporting - thank you! michael talk 16:02, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Usually, articles don't begin with "This article details...". --Osbus 01:50, 28 April 2

006 (UTC)

  • Support Written well, comprehensive, a different sort of subject... got my vote. misanthrope
  • Object Struck —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
    • (Minor) The final sentence in the lead: "Today Burnside is one of Adelaide's most sought-after regions in which to live, the Council is in the progress of implementing it's Vision 2020 plan." This is a comma-splice, easily fixed by changing the coma to a semi-colon, but more importantly, this introduction of something unexplained called the "Vision 2020 plan" seems abrupt.
    • The Aboriginal culture section/paragraph, ending with a quote by James Milne Young, is sourced to [1], but the quote doesn't appear in that source. Also, it is a shame to use a tertiary web source like that for this material, rather than some of the more-reliable sources mentioned in the page.
    • Inline citations are pretty scarce, with only 10 footnotes, none of which point me to which of the listed references I would use if I wanted to verify any of the facts here.
—Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:52, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Fixed the lead sentence.
  • The quote by James Milne Young is sourced from the book The Paddocks Beneath. Much of the information is sourced from that and The First Hundred Years, there is only a small amount of references available for the article. The references given are comprehensive given the article's material. michael talk 07:29, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
  • The objection isn't that it only has four references; the objection is that if I wanted to fact-check the article, I'd have to read all four references from cover to cover, I guess. Inline citations should match up facts (and direct quotations) with sources and page numbers. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:07, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, but what do you request that I do to fix this and gain a support vote from yourself? Apply inline citations from the books stating chapters and page numbers, correlating with the appropriate text in this article? michael talk 22:57, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Yes. Such footnotes could simply be of the form "Warburton p. 22." for example. If whole paragraphs or sections tend to come from one source, a footnote somewhere near the beginning or end of the paragraph or section explaining that would suffice. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 23:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. I should have that done within a day. michael talk 23:24, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
I have managed to do all of those for Warburton. michael talk 09:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Are you going to do so for your other sources too? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 14:59, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I only have The Paddocks Beneath in my hands at the moment. For the others I'd have to go down to the local library and reborrow them; I will do this in short time. That said, Warburton's book actually cites the other two itself so all information is covered nonetheless. michael talk 15:04, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Further cross-referenced. michael talk 04:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
My objections above have been struck; I will re-evaluate the article with a deeper reading if I have a chance. Thaks for putting in the work. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:15, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Support; this is well-referenced and looks good overall. Writing quality is pretty good, but a little touching up here and there wouldn't hurt. Also, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on whether or not this is comprehensive, but what about things like crime and commerce? Were there any significant crime waves? What types of businesses were there? Like I said, I'm not sure if there's anything notable that would fit that description, but if there is, it should probably be included. Also, are there any external links? --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 05:29, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Burnside is the wealthiest suburban city in Adelaide; it has never required a police station or welfare office. Crime is very low, non-notable.
  • Businesses are minor, mainly consisting of office headquarters in the near-city suburbs (eg. Dulwich). Historical businesses, such as mining, Vineyards and the Coopers Brewery are covered in the article. Present-day business detail will located at the City_of_Burnside#Economy article when I complete it.
  • External links relating to the City of Burnside are located in that article.

Thankyou for your copyedit and support vote! michael talk 05:34, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

  • That explanation works for me, though perhaps it might help to copy some of the external links here as well. Not a big deal though; if any have sections on the history of the area, they might be worth adding; if not, don't worry about it. --Spangineer[es] (háblame) 23:09, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Support good article. Although I might say that the online sources in the footnotes needn't be in url-form - they should be as normal external links, or like the online sources in Australia.--cj | talk 05:03, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
  • There's a "disputed statement" tag within the "Early history" section, and the tag refers to the talk page. The talk page doesn't mention the deal with the dispute, though, or whether it ever got resolved. Has the dispute been resolved yet? If so, you can probably remove the tag. If not, then someone needs to do the research to find out what the deal is. --Elkman - (talk) 21:28, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
  • This has been corrected. michael talk 02:55, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Obejct—2a. It's not bad, but the prose is not yet 'compelling, even brilliant' as required for a FA. Here are examples.
"The year of 1928 also saw the building of ..." (tired expression, and redundant "The year of"; why is this 'also' when you haven't already mentioned anything else that happened in this year?)
"401 acres were remained under cultivation ..." (grammar, plus how many hectares would that be?)
"World Wars I and II sent many of the sons of Burnside to fight" (the wars sent the sons?)
"statue of an Australian Imperial Force soldier stating:..." (is it the soldier or the statue who's stating?)
"post-war economic and baby-boom" (clumsy ellision)
"programmes" (AusEng, surely?)
"programme" is the AusEng spelling (or, at least, that's how I learned it in school in Brisbane). Lankiveil 06:24, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
  • No, it changed in the 1970s and 80s, and now differs from BrEng in this respect. Tony 01:11, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

There's lots more. Needs a thorough copy-edit throughout; would take a good editor 90 minutes. Tony 08:28, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll have those specific pointers fixed within the next day but I would greatly appreciate further input if you have other qualms. michael talk 13:57, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, Michael; the whole thing needs a going over, preferably by someone who's a little distant from the text. Can you ask someone who's good at editing? Tony 16:18, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
I have fixed those specific pointers with exception of the third one, which makes clear and perfect sense. The World Wars did send people to fight, hence the usage of the term. I know no editors other than Australians and this article had recieved little feedback. Would you be able to review the text / suggest someone else to do so? It's already been through three copyedits beyond my original text. Thanks, michael talk 09:17, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Response. The fact that I could easily find a number of problem sentences indicates that the prose is not yet "compelling, even brilliant", as required. It doesn't matter how many people have run over it—promotion to FA status is special. Here, you can expect to have the quality of the prose scrutinised closely.

So the Olympic Games sends many athletes to compete, does it? I suppose we can see what you mean, but the expression does not stand up under examination. Better to say, plainly, 'Many of the sons of Burnside went to fight in World Wars I and II' than to try too hard to be elegant. Here, the "a saw b" expression works better:

"A post-war economic and baby boom ... saw Burnside grow at a spectacular rate; from a population of 27,942 in 1947 it grew to 38,768 in 1961.... 1953 saw the building of a public ballroom, 1965 saw an Olympic Grandstand; both in Kensington Park."

But by now we're tiring of the same construction; and while we're at it, the semicolon is wrong—use an m dash, or a comma. This is not compelling prose.

Earlier in the paragraph, we have:

"When Australia celebrated the Golden Jubilee of the Federation of Australia in 1951, Burnside residents joined in the celebrations. More important at a local level, Burnside's centennial was commemorated in 1956."

The function of 'More important at a local level' is unclear. Is it a laboured attempt to link the national 50th anniversary with the local 100th anniversary? If so, the connection is a bit of a stretch for the reader. Why make it?

Let's look at the next few sentences:

"it envisaged leaving Greenhill Road once reaching Hazelwood Park". What does this clause mean—are the Councillors planning a picnic on the roadside? And the following sentence starts with 'It' referring not to the Council, as here, but to the Highway, I presume.

Then: "The proposal was eventually rejected in favour of upgrading Mount Barker Road and Linden Avenue remained a huge out-of-place road"—here, the absence of a comma after 'Road' forces the reader to do a double-take (upgrading the Road and the Avenue? Oh no, I see what it means ...). A 'huge' road is not idiomatic.

You see, this can't possibly pass muster here until it's properly edited. I'm sorry that this is probably frustrating to you, but most sentences contain problems. Tony 10:41, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I'll have my own check done within a day, hopefully I'll be able to spot some improvements and fix them. If you can offer more or do a copyedit yourself it would be greatly appreciated. michael talk 10:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

OK, which ones are 'pedantic' and an imposition of my personal preferences? Tony 10:54, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for doing half of the copyedit. If I get some free time (very busy at the moment!) I'll have a look at the rest, but again, if you can finish the job it would be great! Cheers, michael talk 14:50, 11 May 2006 (UTC)
Fixed. michael talk 04:24, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Further comment. Having copy-edited the article, here are more observations.
    • It's very weighted towards information about the local government (council). Doesn't make for a fascinating read. You might consider removing some of the mechanistic stuff (Acts, list of councillors etc).
    • The aspects that would interest readers more are often not followed up; for example, you say that education was a priority in the mid-19th century, and that the maintenance and planting of trees was a priority in the 1920s. Were these moves ahead of their time?
    • There's almost nothing of the economic history of the area; this is a serious deficiency.
    • You might relate the area historically to what was happening in South Australia, and on the whole continent, at a few strategic points.
    • I'm slightly concerned at the reliance on a narrow range of sources. It really shows when you put an inline reference at the bottom of a paragraph; there, we wonder whether the reference refers to the whole of the preceding paragraph, or to only the preceding statement. How much is copied verbatim?

Tony 13:05, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

  • It's disappointing to hear that it makes for an (assumed) boring read. I don't really know what to do about this, South Australian history in general is a very niche subject so I wouldn't expect it to be absoultely captivating. I might consider removing lists - is this an objectionable point?
  • Yes, the educational and beautification aspects of Burnside are exceptional compared to other Adelaide local government areas - it is for this reason they get such attention.
  • I don't quite understand points three and four; the article details quarries, wineries and breweries in regards to economic history (of which there is little in whole) and even pipes in about an economic downturn across Australia at the end of the 19th century.
  • For such a niche subject, I was lucky to find such detailed souces. While there is not a huge range of texts, it is worth noting that some other Adelaide council areas have not even produced local history books.
  • None of it is copied directly or exactly from the texts. I have focused, in parts, on things that have been given particular attention though.

I must thank you for offering all of this advice and for copyediting the article, without all this criticism it (and myself) wouldn't improve. Again, thankyou. michael talk 15:08, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Sure; as I said, maybe removing just a bit of the council stuff might help; if those aspects were exceptional, why not tell us—that would lift the article. Where is Burnside in relation to Adelaide? There's no map. I guess it would be nice to know what the agricultural industry was in the early days, and whether the crops and livestock changed over the decades. For example, was it wheat and sheep? Dairy? You don't mention the topography, either. I suppose that it was heavily forested in the early days, and that there was deforestation at some stage. These are aspects that will give the reader a better feeling for the way life, the economy and the landscape have evolved there. (Much better than lots of council stuff.)
I noticed a problem sentence: "although still a mix of villages and crops under cultivation, it supported a modest population"—the first clause contains an odd combination, and villages, of course, are not under cultivation. Just why this mix is unlikely to support a modest population ("although") is unclear. Can you fix it? Tony 15:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is not wholly independent, it is a daughter article of City of Burnside (I am presently working on it) which contains (or will eventually contain) other information relevant (maps, geography, etc) to the area. Some points you brought up will be covered there. I have fixed the problem sentence. michael talk 15:54, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Comment You possibly should get rid of the red links in the article (created stubs or delink). MyNameIsNotBob 08:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

All the red links will be gone within a few months when I get around to writing individual articles for other Burnside subjects. I will create stubs now if this is an objection, but I would much rather wait and create worthwhile articles in time. michael talk 08:46, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong support Wow! Great article! Well referenced, well written and comprehensive. I wish all articles about the history of areas were like this one :-) In fact, I may one day update my History of the Strathfield area article to be more like this one. - Ta bu shi da yu 11:27, 16 May 2006 (UTC)