Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Herne Bay, Kent

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 18:03, 4 June 2007.

[edit] Herne Bay, Kent

previous FAC

I believe this article now passes the FA criteria. Epbr123 09:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Fixes needed Excessive citations. A ref tag after every single sentance is excessive. For example:

  • The first paragraph of "Geography and Climate" is referenced to a single source, cite#3. Just reference it at the end of the paragraph.
  • The second paragraph of the same section is referenced to the same source, with the exception of the statement cite#13. I see no reason to NOT simply cite them both at the end of the paragraph. These sections are uncontroversial, and the sentances these ref tags follow are unlikely to be specifically challenged, so simply citing at the end of the paragraph is sufficient.
  • First paragraph of "Sports", same problem.
  • Several parts of "Economy", same problem.

Overall, this is a very good article, and while one can appreciate the thoroughness of the reference, it is possible to be thorough, and still well organized. UNLESS a specific statement is likely to be controversial, it is probably sufficient, especially from a readability standpoint, to reference at the end of a paragraph, especially in cases where the entire paragraph comes from one source. As a counter-example, the section on Pop Culture is appropriately referenced, since one would want to know where the information on each TV show came from. However, in the examples above, citing at the end of the paragraph is unambiguous and improves readability.--Jayron32|talk|contribs 15:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

    • Thanks for your comments. The excessive citations have now been fixed. Epbr123 16:19, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Support All fixes done. Looks great now! --Jayron32|talk|contribs 17:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Oppose. Problems throughout with wikilinking. Single years are not wikilinked, nor are common terms (see WP:MOSNUM and WP:CONTEXT). Also, pls read WP:DASH and fix throughout. Footnotes are not completed; several are missing full biblio info like date of publication and/or author when available (see WP:CITE/ES). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:09, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
    • All those issues have now been corrected. Epbr123 12:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
      • No. I just made a series of edits to show examples of work still needed; pls ping me when done. Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:22, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Much better now structurally. Striking my oppose; thanks for the fast response! Regards, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose—1a, but it's otherwise good and worth saving. Someone else to copy-edit the whole text, please.
    • "The town rose to prominence as a seaside resort during the early 19th century after the building of a pleasure pier and promenade by a group of London investors and reached its heyday in the late Victorian era." The use of commas is partly a personal preference, but really, our readers will find it easier to read with one after "investors" (there are two "ands" in the sentence).
    • A bay lying along the coast? Unidiomatic, and right at the opening.
    • Why are "oysters" and "clock tower" linked? We do speak English. If the first were piped, say, to "Oyster farming in South east England", fine. But it's not Wiktionary. Please audit throughout.
    • "the last few years"—what, before the great flood? "Past".
    • "purpose built"—hyphen please. Maybe also for "second longest", in BrEng. Tony 00:58, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Those have now been fixed. I have already requested a review by the League of Copyeditors. Thanks. Epbr123 01:17, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Further comment on the writing. Well, yes, some work has been done on it, but not enough. Research the edit-history pages of FAs on related topics. From the edit summaries and comparisons, identify the good copy-editors. Familiarise yourself with their work, and when you ask them for a favour, show them that you've done so (it’s a form of flattery). This is a valuable investment in a collaborative framework that will serve you well in your future development of FA nominations. I see that fresh information has been added in one place:
"... 14%. 12% of the town's residents aged 16-74 had a higher education qualification or the equivalent, compared to 20% nationwide. According to Office for National Statistics model-based estimates, during the period of April 2001 to March 2002 the average gross weekly income of households in Herne Bay area wards was £516 (£26,906 per year)."
    • Percentages jangling.
    • Use en dashes for ranges (16–74); it's correct at the start of the para, though.
    • Compared with for contrasts.
    • Is "wards" necessary?

More work required to get a gold star. Tony 01:53, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

    • I'm still awaiting a third party copy-edit by the LoCE. There's a huge backlog there as well. Anyway, your decision whether to support or oppose shouldn't depend on someone else's decision. Epbr123 18:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment- yeah, this one needs a bit of work in some sections. I'll try to list some:
Para 3 of Economy sounds weird as it sounds like it slips into the point of view of the council. Need to somehow itemise concerns...The concerns included... Tricky as you have to make it avoid sounding listy. cheers, Cas Liber | talk | contribs 13:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
I have reworded that paragraph. --Epbr123 14:13, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have several comments to do with the quality of the prose:
  • Looking through History, I'm confused by this phrase "The word herne is etymologically a place on a corner of land and it evolved from the Old English word hyrne, meaning angle or corner." The word "etymologically" sounds awkward in this context, and the phrase itself is not clear; "a place on a corner of land" is surely only stating the meaning of the word? To me, it seems like the etymology is in the second part of the sentence.
  • This sentence could be rephrased: "Herne Bay was officially established as a separate town from Herne by an Act of Parliament in 1833." Perhaps "In 1833, an Act of Parliament established Herne Bay and Herne as separate towns." Your choice as to whether it reads better though.
  • More comma usage would be nice - I find sentences such as "Herne Bay railway station is on the Chatham Main Line which runs between Ramsgate in East Kent and London Victoria" reads better as "Herne Bay railway station is on the Chatham Main Line, which runs between Ramsgate in East Kent and London Victoria." I notice several sentences where commas would make the sentence a little easier to parse.
  • Does the fact that "Whitstable is famous for its oysters" need to be mentioned in the lead? (Reading it, I wondered what Whitstable's oyster prowress had to do with Herne Bay).
I'll add more comments as I go through the text. In terms of content, it's a really good article.
I think I have fixed the problems you have listed so far. Epbr123 14:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. After changing the oysters sentence, is Herne Bay, Kent, famous for its oysters? It doesn't seem to be mentioned anywhere else in the text. CloudNine 15:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
That has now been removed. It was left in error when I cut and pasted the Whitstable part. Epbr123 15:14, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • "Some of these band's members met at school in Canterbury but were residents of Herne Bay." That phrase indicates a single band, whereas the sentence above talks about multiple bands. It needs a little clarification in my opinion.
Done. Epbr123 15:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The phrasing still sounds a little awkward, "bands'" doesn't read well. I feel that the sentence needs rephrasing. CloudNine 18:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Why include the date of images in the captions? In my view, such information is more suited to the image summary page, and it doesn't make for a "succinct caption". (criteria 3) CloudNine 15:24, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The dates have been removed. Epbr123 15:30, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Some of the details of "Famous Residents" could be reduced. Do we need to know that Bob Holness moved from South Africa to Herne Bay, or that Daniel Tammet broke a European record? In my opinion, a cursory mention of who the subject is suffices (I assume that if the reader's curious, they'll click on a wikilink). CloudNine 18:52, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I think that's now fixed. Epbr123 19:00, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • "Thanet"? Where's that? "During the 1840s, steamboats began running between Herne Bay and London. Both Thanet and Herne Bay had a type of beach boat unique to the area, known as the Thanet wherry,". This phrasing made me think that Thanet was a part of London.
  • "In 1910, a pavilion was added to the landward end of the pier, and in 1912, the first "Brides in the Bath" murder by George Joseph Smith was committed in Herne Bay." The way it's been phrased makes it sound like the two are related, which I doubt they are. CloudNine 20:37, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Fixed, I think. Epbr123 20:48, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support After a deluge of comments and copyediting by myself, I'll support. One small bit of advice, however, is to upload your free images to Wikimedia Commons, so that other wiki-projects (such as Wikipedia in other languages) can use them, and place a {{Commons}} box in the External Links section. CloudNine 10:56, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Note that I've indicate the presence of a sentence fragment. "and February 2007" needs fixing. CloudNine 14:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Withdrawing oppose. At the opening, kilometres should come first, with US equivalents in parentheses—not vice versa (this is very much a current measurement, unlike the historical "18 ft" that comes later - there, metric equivalents would be nice). Note that "lead" is a metal, not the past tense of the verb. I've copy-edited the first bit. Overlinked IMO. Tony 02:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
  • I believe I've addressed that objection. CloudNine 09:16, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Same capitalization questions and issues as at Birchington-on-Sea — please check throughout all articles (is Local Elections capped or not, for example?)
    • Similar to other article, don't understand the choice to wikilink some terms and not others, per WP:CONTEXT, for example: As of the 2001 census, the industry of employment of residents of Herne Bay was 19% retail, 14% health and social work, 11% manufacturing, 10% construction, 9% real estate, 8% education, 8% transport and communications, 5% public administration, 5% hotels and restaurants, 4% finance, 1% agriculture and 5% other community, social or personal services. Compared to national figures, the town had a relatively high number of workers in the construction and health and social care industries and a relatively low number in manufacturing and real estate.

Because many of these items are probably similar across your five noms, I'll review the remaining three after these two (Herne Bay and Birchington-on-Sea) are addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Back for another look; it looks like most of that has been addressed, but some of the changes have introduced/furthered the copyedit needs. I saw:

  • It has still not been rebuilt since due to the cost, although residents and businesses in the town have campaigned for its restoration.
  • Another noticeable landmark is a concrete funnel-shaped water tower overlooking Herne Bay from the top of Mickleburgh Hill, which has since become used just a base for radio transmitters.
  • I believe I've addressed those particular examples. CloudNine 09:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

And I'm not sure you didn't unlink too much in the Transport links section (will leave that to your discretion per WP:CONTEXT) ? With one more copyedit pass, I think you'll be there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:28, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I have now carried out a thorough copy-edit. Epbr123 13:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm striking my oppose as all of these issues appear to have been addressed. I see a few lingering things that should be corrected and you should watch out for in other articles, example: To date, it has not been rebuilt due to the cost; however, residents and businesses in the town have campaigned for its restoration. "To date" will lose meaning over time on Wikipedia, so more enduring phrases should be used (As of early 2007, or something to that effect). Think in terms of how the articles will endure if you never edit them again and someone else picks up the work somewhere down the road. Nice work! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:50, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.