Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gilberto Gil/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 16:11, 18 May 2008.

[edit] Gilberto Gil

Self-nominator. Short, but has gone through a successful GA review and exceedingly useful peer review. Kakofonous (talk) 19:50, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

    • I'd like to request the withdrawal of this nom per the above recommendation. --Kakofonous (talk) 15:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comment How do you know this is comprehensive? For someone with such a long and successful musical career as well as involvement in politics, it is hard to believe that this is all that can be said. Mangostar (talk) 23:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
    • In all the searching I have done for references (which, sadly, does not seem to have turned up any books), I've found quite a few hits and quite a few less reliable ones, plus the fact that there is not even clear consensus among the sources as to such a rudimentary piece of info as Gil's birth date (ended up going with the one on his website). The sources from sites with reliable people behind them, as well as those that reference other published information, have turned up the content in the article so far. However, I will do some more looking, and thanks for the comment. --Kakofonous (talk) 23:51, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Just as a supplementary note: I did find some more info, but this may be at or near the limit of reliable stuff I can add. I will keep looking, as Mangostar's comment is certainly valid. --Kakofonous (talk) 02:03, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
      • I'm sorry, but there are plenty of English-language sources on Brazilian popular culture and politics from the 1960s to the present day. All of them will cover Gil to some extent. These 727 hits on Google books are just an initial indication of that fact. I'm bewildered at the notion that you have not been able to turn up any books. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 02:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. This is, to me, an example of the proper path an article should take to FAC. It had a substantive peer review where issues were raised and resolved. It has now been stable for at least a month. Any issues I found were resolved in peer review. Speaking to Mangostar's point above: I had a similar concern, initially, about comprehensiveness so I did some research. I did not find anything substantial past what Kakofonous found. There may be additional sources in Portuguese but that is not within the scope of this project. --Laser brain (talk) 02:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Support. Having helped peer review the article, as well as giving it a GAN review, I see no other issues to prevent me from supporting. dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 02:22, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

  • What makes the following sites reliable?
    • http://biography.jrank.org/pages/2802/Gil-Gilberto.html
      • Cites its sources.
        • Is there still an issue with this site, or did you forget to strike?
          • Just because it cites it sources doesn't mean it necessarily is reliable. Who is behind the site? Who is the author? Are they noted in the field of history/biography/etc? If it cites its sources why not just cite those sources direct? Ealdgyth - Talk 13:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

(out) I replaced the source with other reliable ones. --Kakofonous (talk) 15:01, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

    • http://www.angus-reid.com/
    • http://www.afropop.org/
      • Site in itself is not reliable, but the page cited is an interview with Gilberto Gil, giving a representation of his personal opinion.
        • Alternatively, if the site is not considered to be one that presents interviews reliably, I could remove the statement cited by this source. --Kakofonous (talk) 04:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
          • Ideally, it would be found somewhere more reliable. It's an on the fence site in terms of reliablity to me, It's not particularly contentious material however. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
            • As it's a fairly obscure interview, I don't believe it exists anywhere else. --Kakofonous (talk) 13:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
              • I'll leave this one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:53, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
          • If you're keen on interviews with Gil, why not look here, say? --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 02:59, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Still on the road, which means I am not able to reply as quickly as usual. Ealdgyth - Talk 04:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Oppose. All the references are online, which I think is unacceptable for a figure of this stature. See the list of books published on him here. And I recognize that there are almost all in Portuguese, but there are also innumerable starting points for English language research. You could start here. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 02:43, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Will be visiting a library tomorrow. --Kakofonous (talk) 03:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
      • Authors to look for: Charles Perrone, Christopher Dunn, Lorraine Leu, Idelber Avelar, Robert Stam, Larry Crook.... Good luck! --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 03:14, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
        • Granted, it was a relatively small library, but what they had was even less than I expected. Searched all the authors you mentioned, plus the interview book; Crook is on order for inter-library loan, as is Tropical Truth: A Story of Music and Revolution in Brazil by Caetano Veloso, the interview book was not available, as were the others. The books on loan are expected to arrive in a week to ten days. However, I may be able to access Encyclopedia Africana, which Google Books said had quite a few mentions of Gil, sometime sooner. Stay tuned. --Kakofonous (talk) 19:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
          • That's actually available online at google books. Mangostar (talk) 14:06, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
            • All it gives me is a thing saying "this part of the book is not available", and it turns out I was wrong about being able to access that book somewhere else. However, I did end up ordering some excellent resources online, and am in the process of adding info from them. --Kakofonous (talk) 22:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
    • A lot of work is going into this right now, including the addition of much better sources (though I've added an inline citation specifically about the note regarding the prison experience; and I kind of doubt that all the citations from Wald are from the same three pages). I'm withdrawing my "oppose" for now. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 21:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

  • Support. Good prose, sufficient references and suitable images make for a very readable article. Well done! — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 07:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comments

  • "He began his performance career as a bossa nova musician, but soon began writing songs that reflected a new focus on political awareness and social activism."—"and soon began", since it contradicts nothing?
  • "The two moved to London in the late 1960s after being instructed to leave the country of Brazil."—Remove the last two words; they're in the background.
  • "However" better at the start of the sentence.
  • "He also settled on guitar"—Too many "alsos". This one could go. Weed out a few others throughout.
  • You can probably dispense with "(English: ... " for the translations—what they are is obvious.
  • "That same year"—pick the redundant word.

Needs massaging throughout, but quite good. TONY (talk) 18:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Have taken care of these comments to the best of my ability and done some more massaging in areas you didn't specifically mention. --Kakofonous (talk) 19:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Comments by Moni3

I found it an interesting article, and engaging in light of the fact that I know squat about Brazilian music or culture. But, as is the case with someone completely new to your topic, I have some questions.

  • Can you provide brief descriptions of what makes the types of Brazilian music Gil popularized unique? Such as instruments used, beat, lyrics, etc?
    • What do you feel is missing? There are quite a few description of his style in the "Musical style" section.
  • It's not clear to me what Gil was doing that was so threatening to warrant his arrest.
    • Added some info—there really is no clear explanation, as the arrest was not based on a crime, rather that his and other tropicalistas' actions were not pleasing to the dictatorship. I have added some explanations that have been used.
  • Is there nothing more on Gil's personal life than his marijuana use? He's a public figure, so there should be material printed about his family life, no?
    • Shockingly little has been written about his personal life (IMDB has more than any other source, but it's not reliable), but I've added some.
  • With a section on Legacy so short, it implies he doesn't have much of a legacy. In fact, the material in that section is about music style. Would you consider connecting it to the section above, or expanding it to provide examples of other musicians he has influenced, awards won, etc? --Moni3 (talk) 16:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
    • It was connected originally but was changed after some shuffling. I have restored it. --Kakofonous (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
What separates forro, baião, and samba, for example? I'm not looking for a comparative sentence but it would be helpful and interesting to read something like He was influenced by the sounds of XXX in northeast Brazilian forró music, where XXX is a particular instrument or beat. What about altering the sentence in Musical style to Gil performed primarily in a blend of traditional Brazilian styles, such as using XXX from baião and XXX from samba.
The explanation about Gil's arrest is clearer, thank you. You might want to say Tepel and Steward are historians or writers. I though Tepel was a government official 'til I looked at the source. --Moni3 (talk) 19:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
For the most part in the references where his stylistic influences are mentioned there is nothing specific about what he drew from each style. I was able to provide a little context for baião and samba, however. --Kakofonous (talk) 21:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Not yet. Thanks for pinging me. I see lots that I don't like, at random.
    • MOS breach: Gil says that his mother was his "chief supporter;" she bought him ... (see "logical punctuation").
    • "He was influenced by northeast Brazilian forró music, but also listened to international stars such as ..." Why is listening to intern. stars somehow at odds with the influence of forro? When fixed, will "also" be required?
    • WAY too overcited. Every sentence has a number-clutter at the end. Please ration by removing successive repeats, where readers usually accept that once a citation appears once (or even twice) in a paragraph, it can and typically does have wider ambit than merely a single statement. It's cumbersome as is.
    • "became the series's musical director"—ouch.

No, these random catches indicate that you need to collaborate with a copy-editor who is into the field: research related FAs and other articles, locating word-nerds through the edit history/edit summaries. Building collaborations is at the heart of the WP experience. Not good enough yet. TONY (talk) 08:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Oppose. I have to agree with Tony, I'm afraid. This article is very promising, and Kakofonous is doing sterling work on researching and expanding it. But really it's too soon for it to come to FAC. It takes time to figure out how to integrate new material, and make the prose flow. In fact, I'd recommend that Kakofonous withdraw the article's candidacy. I should also say that I'm prepared to help, at least intermittently, with the article in the meantime, in preparation for a subsequent FAC attempt in the future. --jbmurray (talk • contribs) 08:51, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.