Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Final Fantasy VII/archive1

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[edit] Final Fantasy VII

I'm wicked jealous — this is perhaps the best article on Wikipedia. It has nearly 140 references, is amazingly comprehensive when considering that this is the most influential video game of all time (but not the best!), and 80 percent of the work was done by Ryu; I only performed a light copyedit on this one. Speaking of copyedits, it might need a few more tweaks, but we'll leave that for you to determine. Additionally, I raised a few concerns with Ryu, and here was his reply:

Maybe it's because I'm too close to the subject (I wrote the entire article, and after almost 100kb, I guess that's inevitable XD), but I honestly can't see what we could lose from the Plot or Development sections. I mean, the thing is long as hell, yeah, but it does meet the FA criterion of staying tightly focused on the subject. Pesonally, I think if we shortened anything, we'd be losing that comprehensive overview.

I mean, looking back through the various Plot sections, I don't see anything we can lose because it's either backstory vital to understanding the rest of it, subplots that have to be touched upon in order to meet comprehensive standards, character design info that we always include and shouldn't cut just on the basis of length (it's technically shorter than VIII's character section anyway), or the major revelations and resolutions of the storyline (and we're still ignoring how much? Rufus gets mentioned one time, we don't mention any specific Turks' names, "huge materia" doesn't pop up, nor does "Sister Ray" or "Northern Cave", Bugenhagen's name doesn't even appear outside of references, all the specifics of Barret, Red, Yuffie and Cid's stories don't even get touched on, etc.). I know there's a lot of content to the article, but there's a lot of content to the game, and we don't even make note of a lot of it. More than most of them have in all honesty.

In the Development section, we're able to provide info on the software that was used in the game's development, how many people it took, how much money was spent, what prompted the leap into 3D, the initial 3D experiment (something that resulted in some criticism leveled at Square by gamers, which is mentioned later), the rationale behind some extremely notable decisions that have affected gaming ever since, the difficulties overcome in developing this groundbreaking game, and one of the most intensive marketing campaigns in the history of gaming. Again, I know we've got a lot of content, but this isn't an article about just any game. I know I'm sounding like a Final Fantasy VII zealot when I say that, but it's true. I might not personally worship the game, but it can't be denied its props. This is the World War II of video game articles. I mean, this really is the game that changed everything. Playing video games in the US was suddenly cool, "RPG" became a household name outside Japan, and you could say a game took 60 hours to finish to an awed audience instead of a jeering one.

I know there are some people who will oppose on the basis of length alone, but we both know that's not a valid objection. They would have to explain how we got off the subject in the face of us knowing why the information is relevant and able to point it out. There are actually Featured Articles longer this one, such as World War I, Polish-Soviet War, Byzantine Empire and Theodore Roosevelt.

I know you also have concerns about the References, but according to Wikipedia:Article size, only the main body of prose is supposed to be counted. Reviewers aren't even supposed to look at the references beyond making sure that they're actually referencing what we claim they are.

I really feel like it deserves its place as FA like it stands right now. If FA isn't something an article can get just because somebody says "This comprehensive and informative article on a major subject takes me more than half a second to scroll the entire length... and I'm just too lazy to scroll any longer than that" then it's not an honor worth getting. I think we should try it before cutting anything, and only cut if they provide some darn good reasoning. I usually go with your advice, and I won't consider moving the article forward until you agree with me, but this time, I feel sure of our current standing. I really feel sure. Ryu Kaze 13:53, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe I have nothing more to say. This is how Ryu wanted to depart from Wikipedia activity with a bang, and I think he'll get one. — Deckiller 17:25, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Co-nom/obvious support: As Deckiller said (and thank you for the wonderful comments, Deck; I didn't realize you thought so highly of the article), I did a lot of work on this one and I feel like it warrants being counted among the best of Wikipedia. I guess what he's quoted from me probably says everything that I need to or would want to say, so I'll just leave it here and await the input of all of you. Ryu Kaze 17:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment - The Compilation of Final Fantasy VII section could probably be shortened, with the bulk of it going in its own spinoff article. There should probably be a mention of the sequels in the lead, as well. Other than that, this looks fine. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 17:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • The Compilation section actually had its own page a couple of months ago, but we merged it in because it wasn't doing anything other than serving as a link station for the various titles that are part of the project. We felt that it made the most sense to discuss the Compilation within the article the project is based on, while providing links to the various titles that comprise it. You make a good point about the sequels. I meant to add mention of that into the lead and will do so now. Thank you for the reminder and general approval. Ryu Kaze 18:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support - I'm usually a jerk about references, but at 138, I don't think I have too much to complain about there. The article is long, yes. But I can't say what should be cut. There's just too much to cover- most of the sidestories are ignored or incredibly short as it is. The only critism that I have is minor- In the very end of the Compilation section, second to last paragraph, that "however" doesn't make any sense, as it's supporting the previous sentence. Other than that- well done Ryu! This is an amazing article, and the speed at which you moved it from bloated GA to FAC is awe-inspiring. --PresN 18:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks very much. I'll fix that "however" you mentioned. I appreciate the support and input. Ryu Kaze 18:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Oh, wait. I see what happened there. Half of the preceding sentence got cut off at some point. The "However" was supposed to point out that a rebuttle was coming to mention of the remake rumor. I'm glad you caugh this. Ryu Kaze 19:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Ah, it makes much mroe sense now, thank you. --PresN 20:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
• Minor object simply because it's 3X the recommended size. Otherwise, it's an excellent article. If this were on one of the biggest events in the history of the world, such as World War II, I could live with the article's size, but we are after all dealing with a video game here.Rlevse 19:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Read the nomination italics. — Deckiller 19:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
    • This isn't really an actionable objection, is it? It sounds like you're saying that you're objecting based solely on the length alone, regardless of whether or not the length is needed. The category of the subject has no bearing on how many kbs are required to provide proper coverage of the subject. Some video games require more coverage than others, as some have more content than others or are more notable than others (this particular title falling into both categories). The featured article criteria makes no mention of the "recommended length" thing. That's simply a stylistic suggestion, not an actual rule, and one that openly admits that there will be exceptions to how strictly it should be considered. Few, if any, FAs would make it if there was a rule that we couldn't exceed 32kb. Ryu Kaze 19:07, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Tell that to the people that have had FACs cut down because of it.Rlevse 19:40, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
        • We refuse to succumb to that sort of cutting down on our FACs; I think the other FACs in question think that the objections are credible as they are, and therefore do not form a solid counterarguement. — Deckiller 19:43, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
          • Agreed. They're simply not credible "faults" and won't be recognized as such because they aren't part of criteria. In any event, why would examples of people not recognizing proper FAC procedure in other FACs have any bearing on this FAC — which should recognize FAC procedure? I'm not accusing you of anything, but the way you worded that almost suggests that this is a case of WP:POINT. Is it? Ryu Kaze 19:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
            • I've spoken with Rlevse on his talk page.[1] He's expressed that he isn't interested in coming back to explain his reasoning further and said that his objection can be dismissed. Ryu Kaze 16:56, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
• Additionally, I'd like to nip something else in the bud: just because this article is 98 KB long and featured 140 references doesn't mean that all FAs must mimic this; most gaming articles should have about 50-60 references, but this article must be extremely comprehensive about several additional aspects than the other final fantasies, namely significance, the compilation, etc. — Deckiller 19:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • That is something that needed to be brought up. Also, I'd like to add to what Deck said by pointing out that no other video game has had as much cruft associated with it, requiring extensive use of references here. Ryu Kaze 19:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Object, excessive use of so-called "fair use" images, most of which have nearly identically written (and insufficient) fair-use rationales. For example, almost every image says "The image is used to demonstrate the game's distinctive art style", but it's not at all clear that 11 images are required to do this, nor is the "distinctive art style" of the game ever discussed in the article. To move to specific images,

1. Image:Ffviibox.jpg. Rationale says "The image is used to illustrate important characteristics of the game mentioned in the article, which conveys to the reader an idea of what they look like", but it isn't. It's just used for decoration in the infobox. At 650x650 px, it's also hardly "low-resolution" as stated in the license tag. Also, no source is given for the image.
2. Image:FFVIIbattlexample.jpg has no fair-use rationale at all, and no source is given.
3. Image:Midgartechdemoshot.JPG. Rationale once again says "The image is used to illustrate important characteristics of the game mentioned in the article, which conveys to the reader an idea of what they look like", but the caption just says "City of Midgar", not explaining anything about what precisely is being seen in the image. Some aspects of the city are mentioned in passing in the article, but there's no way to tell which in any of them are being shown in this picture.
4. Image:FFVIInomuracastdesigns.JPG and
5. Image:FFVIIsephirothdesignbynomura.JPG. The rationales for these images once again say "The image is used to illustrate important characteristics of the game mentioned in the article, which conveys to the reader an idea of what they look like", but actually they both illustrate what some characters in the game look like. The characters' physical appearance does not seem to be an important characteristic of the game at all; certainly not so important that the existing text description needs to be accompanied by two images. Image:FFVIInomuracastdesigns.JPG, at 567x632 px, is also not low-resolution.
6. Image:FFVIImeteorapproaching.jpg. The rationale includes the familiar line "The image is used to illustrate important characteristics of the game mentioned in the article, which conveys to the reader an idea of what they look like", but with no explanation of why the reader needs to know what it looks like.
7. Image:FFVIIaerithrest.jpg. Same as above; why does the reader need to know what this scene looks like?
8. Image:FFVIIneomidgar.JPG. Same as above. What crucial information does this image provide that is not already adequately covered by the text in the sentence "While the landscape had once been desolate due to Shin-Ra's operations, it is now a land of lush greenery"?
9. Image:Compilation of FF7 logo.jpg is just the logo of the series to which the game belongs. Why is this image essential to understanding the article?

Apart from the problems with the images, the article seems to contain some original research (for example, who says "Themes of the game include environmental awareness, acceptance of self, and the nature of life, death and the spirit"? Is that the editor's own interpretation?) I notice a lot of the "references" are actually just quotes from the game, meaning primary rather than secondary sources are being used. That's not against policy, but it is discouraged, especially for claims that are open to more than one interpretation. User:Angr 19:50, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• That line you quoted is in the lead section. It is explained in detail in the sections below. — Deckiller 20:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Actually, it isn't; I went ahead and removed it. Ryu, why did you add that line anyway? Was it the literature teacher inside you? It seems the rest of the objection is the usual fare; the primary source issue is something that has not been objected before, as it is the only way to source a plot without going to "fansites" (besides, a lot of fictional FAs don't even use sources for their synopsis sections at all!). — Deckiller 20:02, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  These are either just screenshots or pictures straight from the official site which became open source for promoting the game. MythSearcher 17:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

  • • Must have been said literature teacher inside me. As far as objecting to the use of the script references, echoing Deckiller, no one has objected to these before, especially on the grounds that they're not reliable (a secondary source would have a more reliable quote than the game?). Anyway, I'm going to see to those image issues now. Ryu Kaze 21:15, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
      • By the way Angr, I'm confused by your objections on the character designs. How are the main characters not important aspects of the game? Ryu Kaze 21:24, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Okay, I've made several changes for the images. See my response to A Man in Black just below. Ryu Kaze 22:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment — Just so everyone's aware, on his talk page I've left a couple of requests for Angr to let us know if the imagery changes listed below address his concerns. Ryu Kaze 03:36, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment — With regard to Angr's continued objection (see below), I just want it to be known that an attempt has been made to address it once again, and requests for feedback left on his talk page. While I'm sure he'll come back, just in case this gets reviewed by others before then, I want everyone to be aware that an effort is being made to satisfy any fair-use issues he has with the article. Ryu Kaze 01:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Weak object - I don't usually agree with Angr on most of these objections, but the battle example does need a rationale and source, and I'm not sure what purpose the meteor image serves. The Aeris's death scene is iconic, but it would probably be better replaced with an image of Sephiroth actually killing Aeris. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:13, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  You know, this is a full-on objection; he's right about several of these. I'll handle them one by one.

  1. The cover in the infobox is fine, but it needs a caption and the source image needs to be reduced. I've tagged it with {{fairusereduce}} as such.

     Hey, I added the caption and series functions to the infobox for a reason; why not use them?

  2. The town image could stand to be moved down; on narrrower resolutions, it makes the beginning of this para unreadable.
  3. The battle image needs a source and rationale.
  4. How is that map at all fair-use? It's a substantial reproduction of one of the major features of that strategy guide. That's a map that someone is trying to sell.
  5. Why do we need a separate image of Midgar? This one is right on the cusp IMO; it illustrates both the cinematics and the city itself, but it needs a better caption.
  6. The cast image needs to be shrunk and has been tagged as such. It's okay other than that because it's illustrating both Nomura's art style and the plot summary (showing what each character looks like).
  7. The Sephiroth image seems gratuitous. We already have a Nomura character design image, and if the Aeris picture is switched, we'll have an in-game image.
  8. Not sure what the meteor image is there for; yup, it's a meteor.
  9. The Cloud/Aeris image isn't the iconic scene; where's Sephiroth killing Aeris?
  10. Why is there an image of Midgar covered in greenery?
  11. The logo of Compilation seems fine to me; this is the article for Compilation (and thus the image is useful for identification), and it's a significant departure from previous FFVII marketing materials.

  I think about four of these images (indutrial Midgar, green Midgar, Sephiroth, Cloud/Aeris) could be ditched, and replaced with the Sephiroth-killing-Aeris image. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 20:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  Fair enough. I'll address these issues. Some of the fair-use rationale problems are more a result of me worrying about so many different aspects of the article at once that I slipped up there. Thanks for the advice. Ryu Kaze 21:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  Okay, here are the changes I've made:

  1. Shrunk boxart image. By the way, Angr, this isn't a decorative piece. It's identifying the subject of the article
  2. Shrunk town image and moved it down some
  3. Got the fair-use rationale for the battle image
  4. Shrunk the map image considerably
  5. Changed the caption on the image of Midgar to identify it as an overhead shot of the city
  6. Shrunk the image of the main characters substantially
  7. Removed Nomura's design of Sephiroth
  8. Removed the image of Meteor
  9. Replaced the image of Cloud putting Aerith's body in the water with one of Sephiroth killing her. By the way, Angr, as MIB said, this is an iconic scene from the game. Please read the article for an explanation of why
  10. Removed the image of Midgar covered with greenery
  11. Shrunk the Compilation logo image, and extended its caption to point out that the logo is based on the original Final Fantasy VII's logo

  Is this sufficient to address all image concerns? Ryu Kaze 22:20, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  I'm still unhappy with the map image. That's not fair-use, it's just copyvio. It needs to be replaced with an image that isn't a substantial reproduction of a for-sale work. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  I've gotten a non-for-sale replacement for it. Ryu Kaze 22:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  Where did this map come from? Did FF Compendium scan it from somewhere, or make it themselves? Can you contact them to ask them to release their work under the GFDL? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  Sure, I'll ask them. Ryu Kaze 23:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  I tell you what: until we can get a map under the GFDL, I'm just going to remove it altogether so there's no concern over fair-use for it. Ryu Kaze 23:27, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  Okay, all of my concerns are resolved. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 23:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

  Cool. I've sent a request for the GFDL of the image to the maintenance guru at FFCompendium, so hopefully we'll be able to use it later. Ryu Kaze 23:56, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: There are two sentences in the article with a whopping five citations lined up in a row (one is the end of the first paragraph in "Characters," the other in the first para of "Compilation of Final Fantasy VII"). I appreciate the desire to properly and conclusively cite sources, but it seems a bit overcrowded and hard to read. Might both of these cases be properly cited with, say, no more than three footnotes each? Alternatively, if you feel that all of the sources are necessary, you might think of putting some of them into the markup, commented-out ("<!-- Further details on such-and-such can be found in Authorname, Book Title, pages 10-12" and so on). Andrew Levine 21:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment - It's fairly obvious that you never read the article before it was turned into an FAC. As stated above, FF7 is the most cruft-attracting game ever. For an article that has historicaly been a bloated plot summary to be submitted as a ~100kb FAC, there needs to be almost epic levels of referencing to show that that is not the case here. I also disagree with putting references in markup- what's the point of references if you can't see them on the article itself? it defeats the purpose of having them in the first place. I dont' feel that they are distracting, even the 5-in-a-row ones. --PresN 21:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• I agree that there's no point in references that can't be seen, but I'll go ahead and just reduce the quantity to three each for the sake of readability. Ryu Kaze 22:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Done. Ryu Kaze 22:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Oppose/comment The compilation section has a dizzying amount of links. Between the wikilinksand the footnote links, it makes the section rather difficult to read. Kevin_b_er 02:31, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your input. I've fixed it up. Ryu Kaze 04:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Weak support. I have several complaints, but they're rather weak ones, mainly the fact that often the character section rambles on a bit about the characters' design. This is all subjective though, which is why I'm supporting and not objecting. You guys did a good job again. (When you're done, I'd like to work with me on FFIV next, and I've done a bit of starting it up, and plan to work on it a bit more, mainly because this November will mark its 15th anniversary). Sir Crazyswordsman 03:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your support. I'm probably going to be pretty busy in the offline world soon, by the way, so I may not be able to help. :( Ryu Kaze 04:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I'll definitely be around, but not in full swing once college rolls around next month. — Deckiller 04:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support I can't really say much except I read it, it is really good, and it seems to pass FA standards with flying colors. RN 07:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thank you! Ryu Kaze 12:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Support - Now that the image issues have been ironed out, I can safely say this is the best Final Fantasy article on Wikipedia, richly deserving to stand alongside previously featured FF articles such as VI, VIII, X and X-2 as shining examples of what a CVG-related Featured Article should embody. Yes, it's big, but it never feels like a long read: everything is (despite first glance!) actually very lightly touched upon and straight-to-the-point, without any extra fluff. It's very well written (although that pretty much goes without saying...) and is unbelievably well-referenced. In short, what was once a good article a month ago is an exemplary one now, and one of the most influential video games out there now has an article to match. Amazing work (yet again)! --NateDan 18:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I thought I'd thanked you already. My apologies. Thank you for the support. Ryu Kaze 13:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment As the principal contributer to a FA and a current FAC I fully understand the difficulty of keeping articles down in size. It bothers me slightly that you consider this isn't really an actionable objection, it is actionable, it is simply very hard. Any FAC on a subject could theoretically be three times as long and still only cover a fraction of what there is to know about it, that is the essence of an encyclopedia article (as opposed to a book). The skill of the editor is whitteling down a huge body of facts into a succinct body of prose that covers the salient points. So here I am, wanting to support what is for the most part a very good article that falls down due to a lack of heavy red marker pen editing. The article does a good job of explaining the games importance (I LOVE it when articles explain real world importance), but the long story section is bloated and difficult to follow or remain interested in. It simply fails to be 'the best of Wikipedia's work'. I am holding off on actually objecting, I'd be interested to see the editors comments, and I would like to see this featured, I just don't think it is there yet. Sabine's Sunbird talk 18:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • See, we're strongly opposed to being badgered between inclusionism and deletionism because we nearly lost a featured article last month because it didn't explain the story enough. Heck, that article's story section is nearly as long as this one, and some editors felt it wasn't comprehensive enough. RPGs are 40 hours long, and they have lenghty stories; to ignore major plot elements is not cutting fancruft, but failing to meet the comprehensiveness standard. Please understand that we're sick of the "too long" or "too short" games of monkey in the middle, and we try our hardest to reach middle ground so that we're not screwed by a faction. — Deckiller 18:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Well, I appreciate your comments and the fact that you asked for an explanation of length rather than outright opposed. I can also appreciate that you shot for explaining your concerns with the article rather than straight out labeling them grounds for objection. Now, to be entirely honest with you, working on the story section for this one was harder than those for Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy X, Final Fantasy X-2, Chrono Trigger or Shadow of the Colossus. While Final Fantasy X has an unbelievably immense level of backstory, the main story that develops as you play is still relatively straightforward and — sticking to the main subplot, while briefly touching on the surrounding ones — can be done fairly easily. Final Fantasy VIII is a simple matter on both levels. VI and X-2 are a little heavier on backstory than VIII, but still nothing near X (obviously X itself serves as the backstory for X-2), while having a main storyline that's quite straightforward. Chrono Trigger and Shadow have essentially no backstory, while Shadow is extremely straightforward in its main story. CT, however, is pretty heavy on describing the actual developments of the story — mainly because, like VII, each main character has their own subplot that has to be resolved during the game. Even so, it's still not on the same level of content as VII.

VII has a ridiculus number of subplots that are introduced, developed, and resolved within the framework of the actual story. That's not even looking at the backstory, which — while not as immense as X's — is still pretty large. Unfortunately, also like X, major aspects of the backstory are revealed during the development of the game itself (specifically Sephiroth and Cloud's histories, which also requires going into the history of Jenova and bringing up Professor Gast). That requires roughly four paragraphs within the story section right there. VII is notorious for being a game where things are not what they seem, full of plot twists, revelations and "Where did that come from?" moments. Since we're required to write about the stories of fictional works in the way that the story unfolds for the player in order to maintain a real world perspective, this means that the section is unavoidably going to be long.

I love succinct, crisp descriptions in an encyclopedia article as much as anyone, I promise. To ensure that this article was comprehensive (a standard of FAC that overshadows any concerns of length), it couldn't be short. However, that doesn't mean it isn't succint. As I said in the text Deckiller quoted when nominating the article, there is a whole lot that we're still not bringing up because it's not part of the core storyline. Comprehensiveness requires that we touch on the main characters' subplots and mention their resolutions, but we don't mention any of the development of those except with the core plot. To give you some examples of the things I didn't include for the sake of brevity, read this list:

(note to Raul: this is a list of examples of how we've maintained brevity with the story aspects of the article; you won't need to read each of these if you just want to cut to whatever response follows)

• A character named "Bugenhagen" lives at Cosmo Canyon. He's probably the most intelligent character in the entire game, with an extensive understanding of the planet and the Lifestream. He is, in fact, the character who first brings it up (it wasn't necessary to mention this, because Sephiroth's explanation of his plan is sufficient for emphasising the characters' understanding of the Lifestream). This character also pretty much raised Red XIII, and was the one who discovered that Aerith had been trying to cast Holy before she died and tells the others that Sephiroth must be blocking the spell from moving against Meteor. Before the end of the game, Bugenhagen dies from old age, being 130 years old. None of this is mentioned in such specifics.
• Rufus Shinra becomes the president of Shin-Ra after Sephiroth kills his father. This is mentioned. What isn't mentioned is that Rufus' philosophy for running the company was in stark contrast to his father's. Instead of running the world with money, he believed he could do it through fear. People in society consider him cold-hearted and he's infamous for looking down on others as stupid, because he's extremely clever himself. In a turn of striking irony, after Meteor is summoned and the WEAPONs awakened, he takes up the position of defending the world from despair himself, and it becomes apparent that he actually cares for his people. At one point, he tries having the members of AVALANCHE executed while telling the public that Meteor and the WEAPONs are their fault. Even though he expected the world was going to be destroyed anyway, he wanted the public to feel better, thinking that someone was responsible and was being punished. Before the end of the game, everyone believes he's dead, killed in an explosion caused by one of the WEAPONs. He survived, though, and shows up alive in Advent Children. Obviously not all of this is mentioned.
• Sephiroth cast Meteor in the crater where Jenova had landed. This crater caved in when he cast the spell and the WEAPONs awakened, revealing that the planet underneath had been hurt drastically because of Jenova. There was a chasm leading all the way to the planet's core. It is through this chasm that the heroes travel at the end of the game, but they can't do it right away because Sephiroth erected a magical barrier over it after casting Meteor. In order to penetrate this barrier, Shin-Ra moves a gigantic cannon from their military base to Midgar, hooks it up to all the mako reactors in the city, and fires a beam of pure mako at the barrier. In the meantime, one of the WEAPONs shoots at Midgar. The beam from the cannon cuts through the WEAPON, killing it, while its attack hits Rufus' office, apparently killing him. The mako beam keeps going, hits Sephiroth's barrier, breaks it, and then gives the heroes the opportunity to go after Sephiroth. Before they can, however, Hojo takes over the cannon and tries shooting at the crater again, intending to send the Lifestream's power directly to Sephiroth. The heroes go after him, and it's then that we learn that Hojo is Sephiroth's father. More stuff we don't specify.
• There's four members of the Turks unit seen in the game. They're extremely popular characters, but we don't mention even their names (I was hoping the fact that they got their own game — as mentioned in the Compilation section — would emphasise that well enough). We don't mention that Reno (probably the most popular Turk) is the one who was ordered to destroy Sector 7. We also don't mention that Don Corneo shows up again during Yuffie's subplot, kidnaps Yuffie and Elena (one of the Turks), and that AVALANCHE and the Turks form a begruding respect for one another while working together to free their comrades. As a result of this team-up, near the end of the game, the player is given the option of not fighting the group. In Advent Children, their respect for one another is still there, and they help each other out.
• Cid gets to fulfill his dream of going into space when Shin-Ra tries using the rocket from years earlier to send a materia bomb into Meteor. It's during this scenario that we learn that the assistant he had been verbally abusing for years saved his life. She had been examining an oxygen tank she wasn't comfortable with when it was almost time to launch the rocket. She said she'd stay in the room and die to make sure that Cid got to have his dream, but he wasn't willing to kill someone to go into space, so he stopped the launch. When Shin-Ra sends the rocket up, AVALANCHE is onboard, and as Cid runs past the oxygen tank that his assistant had been examining years earlier, it explodes, trapping him under some rubble. He then realizes that she had been right about it, and later apologizes to her.
• Yuffie fights her father and several important people from Wutai, earning the right to carry the sacred Leviathan materia. It's also at this time that she and her father's disputes are settled when she learns why he hadn't fought back against Shin-Ra.
• There's still a lot more I haven't gotten into.

As Deckiller explained, we seek to establish a compromise between the inclusionist and deletionist philosophies, because we don't want to be caught in the middle while they feud, wanting our work to be used as an example in their ideal wars. It's happened to us before and we nearly lost an FA over it. We've had to explain that there's no standard for length except succinct comprehensiveness (not an oxymoron, as some have argued). Sometimes more coverage is required because there's more content, but even when that's true, we shoot for brevity. I believe the mark has been hit in this case. Ryu Kaze 19:27, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply. I see. He who sits in the middle of the road gets hit on both sides as my grandmother once warned me. I didn't realise that people were demanding longer story sections. Okay, your explanation makes sense to a point - I did appreciate that the length of the RPG meant that it was difficult to condense. Please be aware that what I was advocating was not deletionism - I'm a lumper/splitter, and I was reasoning that there was scope to move large sections to their respective subpages and place briefer summaries in their place here. Ultimately I still feel that is both possible and preferable, but I conceed that I a) don't know the subject well enough to make definitive statements on that and b) the cut off point between too long and too short is subjective. It may indeed be impossible.

So I shall not be objecting. I haven't made my mind up about supporting it yet either. I am no slave to the 30k limit, (both albatross and procellariidae exceed that) this article is way beyond even what is normal for fac (45-60k) and that bothers me. But so does not recognising the obvious hard work, research and effort that went into this. So, um, watch this space. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I'm surprised we haven't been opposed for not explaining the story enough. — Deckiller 19:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

To be honest, I am too. Especially by those who are fans of the side characters whose subplots haven't gotten as much coverage as Cloud, Tifa, Aerith and Sephiroth's (the main main characters). Oh, and by the way, Aerith's dad is Professor Gast. So there's another subplot we didn't really delve into. Ryu Kaze 19:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Ryu, any luck with that FF9 ultimania? At this rate, FF9 is going to be 2/3 in universe. Do you think you could send me the relevent info via e-mail, especially if it goes into details similar to FF7? — Deckiller 19:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I put my reply on your talk page so that we don't get the FAC more off-track than it already is. XD Ryu Kaze 20:09, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support. I still feel the story section is too long but I am clearly outvoted by people who understand teh subject inside out. I have also decided that rigidly objecting or even withholding support based on a guideline is both hypocritical and mean. Most FAs break way past the 30k limit. At any rate, I need to show support for gaming FACs that try so hard to provide good information on development and real world significance (rather than a list of what the little monstermon did in manga episodes). Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thank you! Ryu Kaze 13:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support The article comprehensively covers everything one should know about the game without losing its focus in trivia or speculation. After reviewing, I noticed the article has a couple "snakey" sentences, but it's nothing notable or even gramatically incorrect. Which means this article is worthy of support! Also a Comment. Fair use isn't an attempt to "sneak something in while praying the owner doesn't sue us." As long as the images aren't decorative and provide important illustration of topics discussed, we should be protected under the law. These informal policy wars over the 'generally accepted fair-use limit' are becoming nonsensical. Like comprehensiveness, appropriate number varies by article; instead of imposing a vague, Wikipedia-wide limit, one should review articles on a case-by-case basis for having superfluous images. --Zeality 20:23, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your support, Zeality. On the subject of the fair-use images, I agree that it shouldn't be a "sneak something in while hoping we don't get sued" thing. I wish there was a more solid concept of what does and doesn't fall under fair-use. It's somewhat laughable that it's even part of copyright law since you don't know how it will be defined until you're already in court. Though my commentary is probably more fit for a discussion of US copyright law than anything else, so I'll stop with this closing statement: fair-use is a wonderful concept, but implemented somewhat poorly (note: this is not a negative criticique of how Wikipedia handles fair-use, just so no one takes it that way; it's just commentary on fair-use in general). Ryu Kaze 20:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Support This is very informative, while keeping consistency and staying true to the source material. My only concern? A little too long...but there's so much stuff in the game that as it stands now I can't see any excess that can be cut, so..has my vote! Dee man45 23:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thank you very much! Ryu Kaze 23:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support. I don't see anything that can be legitimately cut either, and it is very well written. Nifboy 00:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks! Ryu Kaze 00:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support. Nicely done, as usual! Well organized, written and referenced. Combination 01:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I appreciate it very much. Ryu Kaze 01:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support. Killer job, Ryu. I have a couple of things I'd like to comment on, although since I'm working on another article I'm restricting my comments to the first couple of sections:
  • "console and computer role-playin game"? Again, I feel that console role-playing games (also known as Japanese role-playing games) and computer role-playing games (Western role-playing games) are genre distinctions, not platform. Of course, Final Fantasy VII would fall under console role-playing game.
  • I don't see the purpose of wikilinking some of the dates. 2000s?
  • "often credited"? How about just "credited"? Less verbosity and one less peacock term. I would probably revise the sentence to read something shorter and less awkward like "...is credited with bringing mainstream success to console role-playing games." "Out of Japan" is unnecessary; the implication of mainstream is enough.
  • "As with the preceding games in the series, the world map may be traversed by foot, by chocobo, by airship, or by other means of transportation." I would replace "may be" with "is."
  • "At other times, pre-rendered cinematic cut scenes progress the story." Consider replacing "progress" with "advance." I think "advance" suits the context slightly better and "progression" is used in the same paragraph (thus, "advanced" won't sound as repetitive").
  • "During its turn-based battle sequences, the game uses the same Active Time Battle (ATB) system used in the three Final Fantasy games preceding it." Occurrences of "uses" and "used" very close to each other. "Utiliized" is overboard, so perhaps "...featured in the three preceding Final Fantasy games."
  • "Unlike previous games in the series, which traditionally allowed 4-5 playable characters to participate in battle, Final Fantasy VII allows for only three characters to be present in the party at any one time." The previous games in the series still (presently) allow for 4-5 playable characters (although Final Fantasy IV was the only to allow for five).
  • "Final Fantasy VII's skill system has been described as a combination of the character class system used in Final Fantasy V and the accessory system seen in Final Fantasy VI." "Has been described"? Sounds a bit weasel-wordish.

That's all I have for now. This article is truly amazing; the only criticisms I could come up with were nit-picks. Again, excellent job. :) --Tristam 05:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• • I took a lot of these into consideration during a light copyedit, although the "can be" wording is intentional, since chocobos aren't mandatory (and adding a whole sentence describing that would be redundant). — Deckiller 06:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
• I'd like to apologize if I seem a little overly frank for this FAC (and my community work in general); with lots of FA pushes comes lots of mirrored objections, so we tend to grow impatient as editors, which leads to attempts to "nip things in the bud", which can often come across as confrontational. — Deckiller 06:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your input, Tristam, and your support. Thanks also to Deckiller for addressing the suggestions you provided. Ryu Kaze 13:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. I am really impressed. This article has a sort of special place in my heart because it was one of my first edits while I was still known as a bunch of numbers separated by periods. Coming from someone who's played the game inside and out, I would say that the story section is barebones, absolutely as thin as it can get without slipping over a vital plot point. As Ryu Kaze has pointed out, there are plenty of things that seem just as important to understanding the story but have been completely glossed over for the sake of succinctness. I bet some FFVII fanboy out there will vandalize the story section by adding all of these things, rather than deleting. Axem Titanium 20:26, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your support. Ryu Kaze 20:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
• Length issues are rising again, this time represented by a tag on the main article. I'd like to reinforce the fact that this is already a summarized portion of the story, and further summarization will lead to issues coming from the other side. We struck a balance. — Deckiller 05:55, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose - This article is unreadable. I consider FFVII to be among the best video games in history and I really wanted to read this entire article in order to give a thoughout evaluation. However, my sincere desire to read the entire article was defeated once I got to the Story section. This section is just much too long. Trying to review every significant point in the story is just too tedious. The full story should be moved to a separate article and a summarized version added to the main article. The summary should be 5 or 6 paragraphs at the most (the same length as the other sections). The Compilation of Final Fantasy VII section should also be moved to a separate article (as has been suggested already). The Development section is also on the long side, though perhaps it could just be edited down a bit. The writing style and referencing are excellent and I would certainly support this article's nomination if I could just read the whole thing. Kaldari 06:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Kaldari, comprehensivess is a criterion for featured articles. Length is not. Did you read the above discussion about this issue? The only requirement related to length for featured articles is that they stay on the subject while first achieving comprehensiveness. As you can see detailed above, a lot of the story has still been left out, though I'm sure you know this anyway since you've indicated that you've played the game.

You said "The summary should be 5 or 6 paragraphs at the most" because other sections are that long. That doesn't make sense to me at all. There's more content here than with other stories and the other sections of the article. You can't impose a standard size on something that has no standard quantity of content to begin with. Were the section to be shortened as you've suggested here, someone could object (rightfully so) on the grounds that the much more important requirement of comrephensiveness has not been met, if not on the grounds that the story summary would be incomprehensible (remember, game stories have to be summarized in the order that the information is presented to us in the real world; trying to omit info under these circumstances would make it impenetrable to an outside reader). What's the point in a reader even starting to read the article if it's not going to be comprehensive or make sense? Again, comprehensiveness comes first.

Wikipedia:Article size is just a suggestion. It's not even part of the manual of style. It is, in fact, a suggestion that openly and readily admits that there will be exceptions to how strongly it should be considered with specific subjects (from the page: "Sometimes an article simply needs to be big to give the subject adequate coverage; certainly, size is no reason to remove valid and useful information"). It acknowledges that how long an article should be is a case-by-case matter. Why are you citing it in your objection when it doesn't even suggest that there should be a strictly followed standard of length?

For that matter, the manual of style only suggests that story summaries be kept "reasonably short". How can someone put down a universal definition of what is "reasonably short" when not every story has the same amount of content? Final Fantasy VII probably has more content than any of the others, and for reasons, explained above, it is being reasonably short. There's a ton of things that don't get in-depth coverage because the focus here is on the core storyline, with only the briefest mention of subplots. I am absolutely flabbergasted that someone who has played the game would suggest that Final Fantasy VII — the Final Fantasy game that probably has more content to its storyline than any of the others — should have a shorter story section than the articles on Final Fantasy VI, Final Fantasy VIII, Final Fantasy X or Final Fantasy X-2. Chrono Trigger — another game with a lot of content — has a story section that rivals this one. If this article was about Shadow of the Colossus — an excercise in the concept of minimalistic storytelling — I would agree that 5 paragraphs are sufficient. But you can't suggest that a game designed to be completed in 10 to 12 hours with an intentionally minimalistic storyline should have the same summary size as a game designed to be completed in 50 or more hours, with a storyline that to this day is considered one of the most long-winded and convoluted outings in RPGs.

I feel inclined to ask if you considered the subject of the article when you made that suggestion. If so, you didn't add any mention of it to your claim. An argument for why the story section should be shorter than it is should be based on the story itself and why it doesn't require this kind of coverage — as well as how this kind of coverage could be avoided while being comprehensive and ensuring that the information makes sense — while hopefully taking into account that this is the article for the most revolutionary title in video game history. Why should it have a shorter story section than its successors?

By the way, the Compilation section would be a stub if it were an article to itself. That not only would result in ignoring coverage of this very notable aspect of this very notable game, but it would be placing that information into a spot where it wouldn't be so likely to get proper coverage. Outside of the article for Final Fantasy VII, a Compilation section isn't going to serve a purpose much greater than being a link repository. It's actually very relevant to the subject being discussed in this article, and should be described here.

Thanks for the compliment about writing style and referencing, though. Sorry if I was harsh in there at any point. I was just really floored by the suggestion you made and that you objected on such a basis. Ryu Kaze 13:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have read the entire FAC debate as well as much of the discussion on the article's talk page. I am still very firm in my belief that the story section is too long. I know that the article length guidelines are only suggestions. However, I believe that having a section that is so tedious as to be unreadable is certainly objectionable. I've read 1,000 page books, but I couldn't read this encyclopedia article because it was too tedious (despite the fact that I'm a huge fan of the game, no less). To me that is a huge problem. Please explain to me why it would be a problem to summarize the story? Obviously it is already summarized, I just think it needs to be summarized a lot more. I don't think that would prohibit the article from being comprehensive. Kaldari 21:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm sorry you found the section tedious. I will scan the section again tonight and see if there's anything at all that could possibly be condensed, but I'm not expecting to be able to condense much. Even sticking to the core storyline, there's so much that has to be mentioned for the summary to make sense and be comprehensive too. But I will try. Ryu Kaze 21:39, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Ah, so the entire oppose boils down to finding the content dry? — Deckiller 21:43, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

No, tedious is not the same thing as dry. All that I'm asking is that you limit the Story section to only the core storyline and that you remove any extraneous details not essential to the story. Considering how complex the core story is, perhaps it is not possible to adequately summarize it in 6 paragraphs. However, I do think the section can successfully be edited down more with some effort. Kaldari 19:02, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, Kaldari, but I've gone back through the Story section and I honestly can't see any way of making it shorter while preserving comprehensive requirements and the out-of-universe perspective that is also required. The only way it could be done would be to place the backstory info about Jenova's landing and defeat in the Setting section, as well as the info on Sephiroth's pre-birth enhancement, but I can't do that because we're required to present information like this in the order it's presented in-game. Since these are very important aspect of how the story unfolds, I can't move that information to the Setting section. If you must object, you just must. I cannot and will not compromise the integirty of the article — in a way that guarantees it merit objections, no less — for the sake of it being called "too long" on the basis of only "I got bored while reading it".

That seems to be more an issue of you and the content finding yourselves incompatible (or perhaps you and this particular means of presenting the content finding yourselves incompatible; you did say you played and liked the game itself). One might as well object to Theodore Roosevelt's FA status on the basis of "I got bored while reading the Assistant Secretary of the Navy section". You didn't explain to me why you believed the section was too long on the basis of the content itself. You just said you got bored. I don't see how that provides me with any constructive input, or even a basis for shortening it in the event it was too long. Ryu Kaze 22:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I find it disappointing that you would rather blame the reader than work on fixing the problem. There are plenty of areas in which the story section could be edited down without removing any vital plot informtion. I'll edit the section to give you a couple of examples. Kaldari 18:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

While I personally think that the article is now lacking a bit, I can accept the changes you made as long as the line "As the journey progresses, each member of the group must come to terms with personal conflicts from their past" remains. So long as that line is there, I at least feel like the article is making the attempt to acknowledge those subplots. Does this satisfy your concerns with the article? Ryu Kaze 01:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I trimmed the last bit of supporting cast subplot info that you missed, just so it remains consistently on the core characters. Ryu Kaze 01:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Although I still feel like the overall writing style of the Story section is too detailed, I'll give you credit for making a good faith effort (the first actual edit I've seen to address the issue, however timidly). So long as the Story section is restricted to the main storyline, I'll withdraw my opposition. Other than that issue, I think this is actually a very well done article. The references especially are extensive and I love the dialog citations from the game. There are a couple of awkward sentences, but I'll fix them myself if I can find them again. BTW, I only went through the first 4 paragraphs of the Story section to look for things to cut as an example, so I may still find some things to cut in the rest of it if I get around to editing the article again. I hope you've found my edits so far at least somewhat helpful. Good luck on the FAC nomination. Kaldari 05:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much, Kaldari. I can acknowledge that your edits were helpful, yes. I fear we might get some flack from those who feel a little more detailis needed for the other subplots, but now that an even greater effort has been made to strike a balance, I hope that everyone will agree that most of what could be done has been done. Thanks again. Ryu Kaze 13:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Thanks for the changes you've made. I still can't support, but I can object less strongly than before. I'm still not seeing any discussion of "the game's distinctive art style" mentioned in every fair-use rationale. (Is the art style really that distinctive? I'm no expert, but to me it looks like every other manga/anime out there.) And I'm still not convinced that most of these images are showing important aspects of the game in a way a text description would be unable to, but I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that. User:Angr 11:08, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Within the Final Fantasy series, it most definitely has a distinct art style. Though Tetsuya Nomura did the designs for VIII, X, and X-2 afterward, there were some major differences in the level of detail incorporated and even the anatomy represented (particularly with the characters' feet). It's mentioned in the Characters section, I believe, that Nomura said the game's graphical limitations caused him to restrict his actual style, making the designs a lot plainer. In an interview about the development of the next game, the art director, Yusuke Naora, said "This is how [Nomura] really draws". Thanks for returning, by the way. Ryu Kaze 12:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
    • By the way, I've expaneded the fair-use rationale for the images. Give it a look if you would, please. Ryu Kaze 13:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
      • With regard to Angr's continued objection, I just want it to be known that an attempt has been made to address it once again, and requests for feedback left on his talk page. While I'm sure he'll come back, just in case this gets reviewed by others before then, I want everyone to be aware that an effort is being made to satisfy any fair-use issues he has with the article. Ryu Kaze 01:53, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment — Just updating to inform everyone that FFCompendium said the world map image we were interested in using isn't theirs and they can't remember who they got it from some six years ago. That being the case, I'm going to contact RPGamer for permission to use the map on their site instead. Ryu Kaze 21:11, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support - To be honest, I have been concerned about the length as well, but it now appears that much of the articles size is images, which are now reduced to a necessary amount, and has been thoroughly copyedited. I think it is an FA worthy article. Judgesurreal777 04:07, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks a lot. Ryu Kaze 13:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support- I think that the article is very complete and it has to be long because there are a lot of things to say about the game, so i don´t think that how long is an article is a problem. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.127.225.234 (talk • contribs) 20:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC).
  • Thanks for your support. Ryu Kaze 21:09, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

• OPPOSE ... This article just spoiled the game for me. And it doesn't even say it has spoilers. How can you forget something so essential?

And by the way, I'm not joking. It did spoil the game for me. I'm pretty upset right now. -.-

For more info, check this out, in the article's talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Final_Fantasy_VII#I.27m_really_pissed.21.21

I wrote that comment. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 200.125.31.234 (talk • contribs) 02:54, 19 August 2006 (UTC).

• I think the article makes itself quite clear that it contains plot details. The Plot sections are not small, nor are the headers for those sections any more difficult to see than the headers for any of the other sections. For that matter, this is a featured article candidate (comprehensiveness being a criterion of FA) in an encyclopedia. It's going to contain plot details. In any event, a lack of spoiler tags is not grounds for opposing an FA nomination. We're not required to warn people about plot details in articles. Not only is it not part of the manual of style, but readers are supposed to assume that any article may contain them without them being singled out, as mentioned in the encyclopedia-wide notice accessible from the bottom of every page. Ryu Kaze 03:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Not to be rude or anything, but why on earth would anyone read an encyclopedia article on a game, an article that claims to cover the whole game and all of the important details, and be surprised when some of those details turn out to be major plot points, in a section called "plot"? Not only that, but if you've never played the game at all, even things like the names of characters would be spoilers. What's more, for someone who (on the talk page) claims to have played FFs 1-6 and 8, and can therefore be called somewhat of a final fantasy fanboy, to not know that Aeris was killed, 9 years ago in fact, is a bit odd. In short, your object vote isn't basd on anything that can really be used as the basis for a vote, and the fact that you honestly expected the article to not say anything at all about the plot at all is shocking. --PresN 05:17, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Hi, it's me again. I'd like to point out a few things before you guys continue to bash me. 1) First things first. You might be thinking that I'm just some anonymous guy making all this stuff up because I have something personal against the article writer and don't want the article to be featured. Well, let me tell you a few things. a) I have no idea who wrote it and I really don't mind. I really like Wikipedia and I read it quite a lot. If someone ever did such thing just to prevent an article to be featured in an online encyclopedia, that person would clearly have some serious problems. It's not the case with me. In fact, I really don't care if this article becomes featured or not. Therefore, if you want, don't even count my "OPPOSE" vote. However, all I want is for you to at least CONSIDER the problem I had. b) Why am I anonymous? Well, because I'm not a member. And why am I not a member? Because, frankly, I don't think I could contribute with much (if not anything), really. Maybe only some stuff in the article about Uruguay (country where I live) and some other Uruguayan culture stuff. c) Ok I know. So you're wondering why, not being a member, I have the knowledge of how to edit stuff, and even add bold text!! (OMG!!) Well, first, I know basic HTML (I know this is not HTML but knowing how to use tags and stuff helped me here), and I can handle all this stuff with ease. Second, I'm a member of Uncyclopedia, so I learned how the Wikipedia tags and stuff work there. The only major contribution I made in Uncyclopedia in the 3 or 4 months I've been a member is in the Uruguay article. IF you want, here's the link to my user page there, which is pretty damn blank: http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/User:Magellan 2) About coming here. Well I have no idea why I came - I guess I just wanted to check out the Wikipedia article of FF7. Like I already said, I really like Wikipedia and I read it a lot. However, when I came to this article, I knew it would have spoilers. I AVOIDED the parts that say "Plot" and "Story". I actually scrolled down so fast that I missed the screenshot of Sephiroth killing Aeries. However, when I was reading the Legacy (that part interested me, I wanted to read about the criticism), I saw the spoiler. And it sucked. Note: I don't think that knowing the names of the characters is a spoiler. But knowing that they die is. Let me tell you, I already knew stuff such as, for example, that Sephiroth is that last boss. I don't think that's much of a big deal. I have many friends who played FF7 and they would always tell me "Hey man you gotta play it, it rules". And I even saw one of them playing once. They'd tell me some cool stuff about the gameplay and the story but always VAGUE - like a synopsis. They never told me "Hey man, you know that girl from the intro cut scene? The first character to appear in the game? SHE DIES!". 3) I'm 18 years old and I really DID play FF 1-6 and 8. The first one on a real NES (which I still have, along with the original FF cartridge), which used to belong to my older brother. I played ALL OTHERS on a zSNES emulator (except 8, of course). I played the PC version of FF8 (in Spanish, because I couldn't find it in English)... You can tell that I'm not a very big fan of video game consoles - I just use the PC for everything. So the reason why I had never played FF7 before is pretty simple - I just never got the chance to do so. And I never really worried about playing it. I really like the FF series A LOT, but I don't consider myself a FAANNNNN, you know what I mean? Anyway, some months ago, my older bolder (who lives in London) came down to South America and gave me ALL his games. FF7 pc-version was one of them. And I decided to start it, so I could finally get to play it. <<<>>> That's all. Happy now? I couldn't have given more detail. Anyway, let me say what I came here to say: please add a spoiler tag or two. It doesn't hurt anyone. This article spoiled the game for me. It's just the right thing to do. Add one at "story" and another at "legacy" or something. ... Here's the link to article's talk page section about this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Final_Fantasy_VII#I.27m_really_pissed.21.21 --- Thanks for reading my long post.

• I don't recall us bashing you, nor do I see what your anonymous status or history with Final Fantasy games has to do with any of this. Spoiler tags are a stylistic option, not a requirement. They aren't "the right thing to do" in a place that promotes knowledge, not fansite courtesies, has a no censorship policy, and demands that information be presented impartially. Were we writing an argumentative essay, the attempt to influence how readers absorbed specifically-targeted information — if they were allowed to absorb it at all — would be fine (if not the entire point), but that's not what's going on here. This article is an attempt at providing a comprehensive, impartial presentation of information to further readers' knowledge on the subject. It is a fictional work with a story. Therefore, that story will be summarized and people will not be encouraged to avoid learning about it on the basis of a point of view assumption that knowledge ruins things. Once again, this isn't grounds for objecting to the article's nomination for featured article status. Please cease and desist with disrupting this process on such dubious grounds. I realize your intentions are good, but they're misplaced. Ryu Kaze 16:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Updating to let everyone know that the dispute with this user has been resolved.[2] Ryu Kaze 01:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support. This article meets the FA criteria and requirements. The language has a good flow and over 100 references are included (citations including notable sources such as GameSpot, IGN and several published books and reviews). — Wackymacs 16:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thank you very much! Ryu Kaze 16:39, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support — I supported Ryu's last FAC and told him I was waiting for his next nomination. Didn't expect to see one so soon, though! And I'm glad it's Final Fantasy VII, probably the most important of the modern games in the series. Looks like you've taken care of the major issues listed above, so just a lot of support from me. ♠ SG →Talk 23:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks very much for your support. Ryu Kaze 01:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. After a copyedit that I just did (please correct any problems that I might have introduced), I'm almost ready to support. The only thing is that the very last paragraph is a bit confusing, and I was unsure how to recast it; can someone try to clarify it? The length of the article is not a problem for me; the prose doesn't seem to drag on or become lost in details. The only thing that I'd caution about for future work is that the "with <person> <verb>ing..." clause formula can lead to long sentences; be wary of overusing it. Otherwise, it looks good. — TKD::Talk 04:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Your copyedit was performed well. I adjusted that paragraph you had concerns with (the last from the Legacy section, right?). I hope that helps it. Thanks for the advice, compliment and copyedit, by the way. Ryu Kaze 14:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Support. Thanks. Looks good. — TKD::Talk 15:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
      • Thanks a lot. Ryu Kaze 16:16, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support...Partly. It sounds right, I did some formating to make it look better instead of all crowded together. More edits should be made though. MythSearcher 17:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I appreciate your support, but you're not supposed to insert a forced break except in cases of very severe layout issues, and only as a last resort. As there are different monitor sizes with different screen resolutions using different internet browsers, how images appear on one person's screen aren't necessarily going to match how they appear on someone else's. I'm not sure how the inclusion of the forced break altered the layout on your screen, but on mine it produced a very unsightly white gap. Where use of a forced break won't necessarily benefit all monitors/resolutions/browsers, they're not supposed to be included. Instead, any and all other avenues are supposed to be pursued. I've moved the field map image up now (after removing the forced break), so hopefully that will make things look a little better. I know moving the image into the first paragraph can produce problems as well, but hopefully since the thumbnail is small, it won't. Ryu Kaze 17:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem seems to have fixed now, but another occured. The combat picture is now forcing the header "Plot" towards the right. I know it does not happen in smaller screens but it is still a little odd. I try not to add a forced break here (where it seems to be fine since it is the end of a section) and moved the picture up instead. MythSearcher 05:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

That seems to work. Ryu Kaze 11:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Support I nominated this a while ago and it failed but since the regular editors fixed it from a decent article to an amazing one, it must be a part of the FA -ScotchMB 00:20, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks for your support. I never even noticed the previous nomination of this article (from late June, apparently). Had I noticed, maybe I would have tried improving it then. Ryu Kaze 00:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

• Comment — This article has 44KB of prose as of 21 August 2006. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maveric149 (talk • contribs) 01:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC).
• Comment - as of August 22, there are: 18 Supports, 2 Nominating Supports, and 1 non-crossed out object (Angr), for a current tally of (20/1/0). --PresN 18:43, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Great work. Thunderbrand 20:18, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks a lot. Ryu Kaze 21:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I no longer object, as it seems the article does not violate Wikipedia's fair-use policy. User:Angr 22:03, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Thanks a lot for all your input, Angr. So I guess the count now stands at (21/0/0). Thanks, by the way, to PresN for tallying things up earlier. Ryu Kaze 22:10, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Well... let's call it (20/0/1). I can't be philosophically opposed to the concept of FAs while actually supporting an FAC! ;-) User:Angr 06:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose: I must say that the quality of this article is amazing -- that's true. It is very complete, and well featured. I would give it a 10 out of a 10 -- if it wasn't for the fact that it has SPOILERS -- SPOILERS that disgraced my gameplay of FF7. After that, I would give it a 2 out of a 10. I've read the arguments in pro and against adding spoiler tags, and I found that the arguments against are mostly CHILDISH. I am not going to be part of a edit war on this, but I a "highly active" wikipedia editor, I want to make sure that I express my voice on this. I might sound a bit harsh on the "giving 2 out of a 10" thing, but no matter how good is this article, it spoiled my gameplay and further interest in the game -- and I know that I am not alone on this as I have seen other users complaining about the same. Consider this analogy: I feel that this article is as deceptive as having a date with Irina Voronina and finding out way to late that she is a she-male. I vote to REMOVE IT IS FEATURE STATUS, to avoid spoiling the plot to other users. --Pinnecco 14:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Ummmm... if you haven't noticed, this discussion is over and Final Fantasy VII is already featured. If you'd like, featured article review exists to reevaluate featured articles but, being only a few days after passing FAC practically unopposed by the end, I doubt the article could have degraded so quickly. Axem Titanium 14:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that -- But I wanted to express it anyway. Thanks for the hint above. I'll make sure to have a look at the featured article review and take this discussion there. --Pinnecco 17:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler tags have absolutely nothing to do with featured article criteria. FA status can't be removed because the article is informative. That's what it's there to do. If anything, putting a spoiler tag is making it less informative because it's telling people "Don't learn about why this game is important or I promise it will ruin any future experience with it you might have". You came to the article to learn, correct? You learned. Mission accomplished. Ryu Kaze 17:44, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

By the way, no one's going to appreciate you calling preserving the integrity of the encyclopedia "childish". You say you've read the reasons why spoiler tags aren't used here. If so, then you know why other people who feel more comfortable with their presence have even agreed that it makes more sense not to use them. This isn't "randomfansite.com". This is Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia. A neutral body of comprehensive knowledge that aims only to educate while presenting information in an impartial manner. Why do you think hiding knowledge from people or warning them not to learn is part of FA criteria? Ryu Kaze 17:49, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

So the arguments against having spoiler warnings (which I found most of them childish) = "preserving the integrity of the encyclopedia" in your view? If so, you just proved my point. YES, this is a democracy. The fact that I vote to remove its feature status will probably have no effect watsoever in practive, as I am just one person voting against its feature status, when there are several out there voting in favour. But this is what democracy is all about. This article ruined my gameplay, and the last thing I want is other FF7 players to see this article featured on WP's frontpage and scream "damn wikipedia! at their monitors. My mind is made up, your mind is made up. (I am not trying to convince anyone here to change their POV). --Pinnecco 09:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

"Voting against its featured article status" does nothing on this page, and if you bring it to FAR based on your current objections, that's one-sided action outside of a simple talkpage discussion (hence WP:POINT), as nobody will support a removal based on the fact it has spoilers, since it's not mentioned in the FA critiera, and practically all FAs have "gameplay spoilers" and story synopses. — Deckiller 17:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Uh, Pinnecco, no, Wikipedia is not a democracy. I believe you're thinking of the United States (which is really a republic, anyway, but whatever). Wikipedia =/= United States. If you think things are settled on Wikipedia by way of a show of hands, you have completely misunderstood the process. Ryu Kaze 20:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, I'd like to comment that you say you don't want to take sides in an "edit war", but you have clearly taken the anti-spoilers side, and now, in your attempt to remove this article from FA status only because of that, you have begun violate WP:POINT (or, rather, you will actually break it if you try to list it for review). Additionally, 900 edits over two years is good, but not "highly active" as a general standard, but that's beside the point. — Deckiller 17:46, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Woa that's a load of BULL. Just checked the WP:POINT and I wouldn't be violating it as I will not be taking any unilateral action. Yor view of the WP:POINT is biased. Sorry, but that's what talk pages are for, to voice concerns. --Pinnecco 09:07, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Read the wording clearly. You have begun to violate WP:POINT by stating interest in featured article review. You're going to put the article up for review just days after it was featured becuase it spoiled your gameplay. Nobody will side with you on that one, thus, it would be clearly sen as a unilateral action. And, when we discuss that most FAs have such spoilers, it wouldn't be a stretch to say you'd put those up for a one-person review, as well. You haven't exactly violated it yet, but the above serves as a heads up to prevent it from happing Also, none of this should have occured on the FAC nomination page. You said talk pages are to voice concerns, so why didn't you post this on the FF7 talkpage? — Deckiller 17:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Pinnecco, you acting alone is unilateral action. Thus, the "uni" part of the word. Ryu Kaze 20:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this some sort of BS festival? To voice my concerns on a talk page is not an action against the article. This is a democracy after all It is not a democracy? Even better in this case then, as I might draw some consesus that this article might hurt other FF7 players if it is featured in the frontpage -- regardless of how many people are with me or not. I'm leaving this discussion now as it seems futile since there is some strong BIAS here. My mind is made up. But please don't take my refrain from answering your further comments as a fact that I decided to agree with you because I don't. --Pinnecco 21:53, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

You're free to comment as you please, so I'll neither tell you to go nor beg you to come back, but I'd like you to find me a person who doesn't operate with bias. No one does. You're certainly not operating without it. You've made a judgement and are voicing it in accordance with that judgement. This is bias. We have done the same. The only difference is that we're looking to Wikipedia's policies, not hypothetical scenarios that involve us dancing on the edge of policy. Bias is only a problem when it's based on things like personal preference, a gut feeling, or some other such intangible matter irrelevant to Wikipedia's development. For that matter, you're talking about warning people not to learn what is one of the most important aspects of this historically notable subject (mentioned in almost every section of the article). How can people come here to find out what makes it important if you're trying to "protect" them from learning that? Knowledge isn't going to kill you, and knowledge is what this place is about.

By the way, while Wikipedia isn't a democracy, what is decided has to be based on the reasoning in arguments. Shouting "There's information in this article that was created to grant knowledge in this encyclopedia that was created to hold knowledge" (which is all Wikipedia hears since it's supposed to present the information here impartially) doesn't quite stand up to "Not only are we supposed to present information impartially, but this is one of the most important aspects of the subject. It is, in fact, common knowledge among those familiar with the medium, as well as knowledge required for an understanding of the relevance of the subject". This isn't even one of those articles that you can say people can read while avoiding plot details and then still understand the importance of the subject. Ryu Kaze 03:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahem. By your analogy, you would rather not know that Irina Voronina is a she-male before your date? So you'd prefer ignorance until it's too late? By the way, I have no idea who she is or whether or not that's true, I'm just trying to clarify your analogy so I can understand where you're coming from. Axem Titanium 17:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Heh, the analogy is a simple humorous way of illustrating a deception. The Russian model is not really a shemale -- I think this is the part you didn't get. Well, I hope so, because I don't know where you come from, but from where I come from we don't tend to feel a woman's crotch when we meet them for the first time. --Pinnecco 08:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I would rather know about something such as this (a "spoiler", if you will) before entering a relationship. But that's just me. Maybe you prefer falling into traps finding out too late. Axem Titanium 15:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Cute answer, but a logical fallacy at the thread -- since I was the one that was complaining about not knowing things before hand (i.e.: no spoiler warnings). --Pinnecco 21:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)