Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dominik Hašek

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 17:31, 25 May 2007.

[edit] Dominik Hašek

After undergoing a peer review and obtaining good article status, this article has undergone several changes to enhance the prose, the references and the overall content. It is a very comprehensive article that is structured similarly to FA-status Martin Brodeur, and I feel that it is ready for an FA-review.

  • Support Per nom. Sportskido8 08:42, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support. I've been working on this article for a long time, and I believe it meets criteria at this point. --Wafulz 16:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
  • All dates should be wikilinked per WP:DATE. Also, either use Hasek, or use Hašek, but don't use both throughout the article. Pepsidrinka 17:10, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
    • No, not all dates are wikilinked. Solo years should not be wikilinked unless they provide WP:CONTEXT. *Full dates* and month-day combos are wikilinked so date prefernces will work. Month-year and solo years are not wikilinked. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:16, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
      • No, all "Full dates" are not wikilinked. Look at the entire Transactions section. None of them are wikilinked. Also, Image:0222 hockey2.jpg is a cropped image of a picture that has no source. Pepsidrinka 17:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
        • I agree about the date wikilinking. However, a transactions section is one place in particular that I think can do without them. The Wayne Gretzky article doesn't link them either. And I fixed the name consistency issue. Sportskido8 17:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Question? The only time "Hasek" is used is in the references section, for the sake of being technically correct by listing the "real" title. Should this be changed for consistency? --Wafulz 19:02, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
          • No. Someone fixed the "Hasek"s throughout the article, but the reference titles should be exactly how they are in the source. My contention with the dates in the transactions section is for formatting purposes. Let the user decide how they want to format the date. Dates aren't wikilinked for any reason other than for the formatting. If formatting wasn't an issue, then there would be no practical purpose to do so. Is there a reason why, just in that section, dates shouldn't be formatted? Pepsidrinka 16:07, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
            • I formatted all the transaction dates, as requested. Sportskido8 23:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Question? Why do we roll along just fine with formatted references, and find the last four footnotes unformatted blue links? Why do most footnotes include publisher, and then the Willoughby note suddenly has none? Please review for consistency. I also corrected an ndash as a sample of work still needed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Will do. Just curious, what specifically needs an ndash? Is it only game scores, or do I need to put it for something like "6-year old"? Sportskido8 17:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
      • 6-year old is hyphenated; ndash separates date ranges and number ranges (see WP:DASH). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support been using this and the Brodeur articles as tools to improve the Sakic article. Both the Hasek and Brodeur articles are of similar qualities, and one of them is already FA. Kaiser matias 01:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Object Nice article with lots of references but the writing is well below the FA standards. The lead was full of peacock terms. There are still a number of one-sentence paragraphs and flow certainly could be improved. I recommend asking the League of Copyeditors to go through it since I don't think there are too many objections on other grounds. But as it stands, the article should not be promoted. Pascal.Tesson 16:46, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I will check for more of these writing issues but I'm not sure it's quite as bad as you're saying it is. There are a few two or three sentence paragraphs but they are infrequent and have a reason to be short. As for the flow, can you give me an example of what you would like fixed? Thanks. Sportskido8 18:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
      • No offense but although the article is pretty well written, it falls short of the standards. I suggest you take a look at the excellent User:Tony1/How to satisfy Criterion 1a on how to improve the writing dramatically. Here are some specific examples:
        • Change sentences of the form "It would be several months before Hašek would find out that he was even drafted."
        • condense "who wrote a column that night that appeared in the following day's newspaper."Y Done
        • "After the Senators were eliminated in the second round, they opted not to re-sign Hašek, despite claiming he would take a pay cut." Who's claiming?Y Done
        • "His play made him one of the most popular figures in the Czech Republic, with popularity status comparable to that of the country's president Václav Havel". The sentence is awful but more importantly it is completely unsupported by the reference! (The reference is to an interview with Hasek where he tells of Havel jokingly saying that Hasek is going to steal his job). By the way, I found that the sentence "He is extraordinarily flexible — at one point in his childhood, doctors in his native country marveled at how he could contort himself to make saves." is also unsupported by the corresponding reference. (Sure, Hasek tells a story of that sort but for one thing the sentence makes it sound as though all Czech doctors were intently studying this kid with good flexibility and secondly we should not be constructing a featured article from vague tales the subject tells about himself) I suggest that all references should be double-checked very carefully.
          • Question? The exact quote is Doctors were always amazing at young Hasek because of the amazing things this double-jointed boy could do with his body. The flexibility helped him make saves the other goaltenders didn't - or couldn't. Is there any way you'd prefer the sentence be rewritten? --Wafulz 16:35, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
            • Answer! Indeed this is the quote in the article. First, the broken grammar says a lot about the quality of the reporting. Secondly, it's clear from the context that these are either Hasek's words or a rephrasing of them and so this should be treated with suspicion. Not that Hasek has any sort of reputation for making stories up but the whole story seems pretty far-fetched. Sure, maybe he recalls that a doctor once told him "hey kid, you're incredibly flexible" but the context of the Wikipedia article makes it sound as though he was a major object of amazement for Czech doctors. Frankly, I think the whole sentence needs to go. Actually, I've been bold and made the change. The whole paragraph reads more smoothly and is less fanboyish. Pascal.Tesson 04:12, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
        • "Hašek and his wife Alena have two children: a son named Michal (born 1989) and a daughter named Dominika (born 1994)." as Tony would say, spot the redundancy.Y Done
        • Too much blue. For instance, teams need only be linked once.
          • I think I've gotten most of the links, but I'm new to the "too few/too many" links problem. --Wafulz 20:29, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
        • I really think the league of copyeditors would find many many ways of improving the article dramatically. Pascal.Tesson 05:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
          • I fixed the sentence in the International section with the "popularity status". I think it makes more sense now. Sportskido8 18:55, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Object Support I would like some more citations: (for starters first round game against the Ottawa Senators box score please). When did he make his NHL debut, first start? Can these be found easily for hockey? I haven't looked lately. I have faced heat on citation objections. I have just gotten Chris Young (baseball pitcher) up to my own standards though his minor league career. No one is going to contest the annual awards he has won but citing each sentence of such a claim would be nice. I will add some more particulars later this week. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 23:02, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Perhaps instead of a box score maybe an article that claims he thought he was injured? I know how crazy you are about box scores Tony, and let me tell ya, box scores don't say anything more than numbers. So I will try and find relevant articles. Sportskido8 23:16, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Actually, now that I look at it, there are more than enough sources there with the Ottawa sentence. A box score could not possibly add any more benefit to that area. Sportskido8 08:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
      • The part of the story I am interested in has no reference. The reference two sentences later is surely medically related. I am interested whether he was replaced before the game started, after the first period, or what have you. I need a box score to see this.TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 21:57, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
      • How about a box score for the game with the most important goal in Sabres history. ("the decisive sixth game being one of the longest Stanley Cup playoff games in NHL history. Hašek and Ed Belfour made 50 and 53 saves, respectively, in a sudden-death triple-overtime duel that only ended when Brett Hull scored a controversial Cup-winning goal with his foot in the crease.") This would be an interesting one. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 22:08, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Added (with game recap as well). Sportskido8 06:24, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
      • This whole section is uncited: "Final years with Buffalo (1999–2001)". (admittedly only 2 short paragraphs)TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 22:10, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Added two credible references to this section. Sportskido8 06:16, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
      • I must say I am really enjoying reading about my favorite hockey player of the last 15 years (I grew up in Buffalo). Each of the aforementioned citation request is associated with curiosities that your article has stimulated. Here is another one. Is it possible to determine who the "future considerations" in the 2001 trade were. For example, if it became a 2003 2nd round draft pick who was the pick used for. I am not sure how easy future consideration are to track down, but if you can find out it would be nice. It might be more comforting to me as a Hasek fan if I can say we got someone for him.
      • There is another uncited paragraph in Detroit and Ottawa (2001–present) (the 2nd one)
        • Is there anything here that could be challenged (Or that somebody would challenge)? Sportskido8 06:28, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
      • Can you find a citation for the 2006 Olympics stuff.Y Done
      • In the style of play section. I would change the language to read stick hand and glove hand. That is the language I am familiar with and I grew up watching both American broadcasts and Hockey Night in Canada. TonyTheTiger (talk/cont/bio/tcfkaWCDbwincowtchatlotpsoplrttaDCLaM) 14:35, 21 May 2007 (UTC)Y Done
  • Oppose Neutral The prose needs work throughout and there are some MoS errors. Here are a few (not all) examples:
    • "For his third stint in Detroit, he lost a considerable amount of weight between May and September of 2006 to increase his flexibility." should be "between May and September 2006", there also might need to be a mention that the weight loss was before the season; assume that at least some of your readers know nothing about hockey.
      • Y Done
    • "His strong play is credited for bringing European goaltenders into a league where the position was once widely dominated by North Americans." Awkward "Is credited with establishing European goaltenders in a league..." might be better see here about using into btw.
      • Y Done
    • "He is extraordinarily flexible, so much that at one point in his childhood, doctors in his native country were marvelling at how he could contort himself to make saves." I think someone meant to say "so much so that" either way, that's not the best way to word the sentence. A semicolon could just eliminate the need for extra words "He is extraordinarily flexible; at one point in his childhood,"
      • Y Done
    • "at one point in his childhood, doctors in his native country were marvelling at how he could contort himself to make saves." Clunky, "doctors marveled at how he could" is better.
      • Y Done
    • "Because of his flexibility, Hašek manages to make saves that other goalies would consider very difficult" weak prose. WOuld consider very difficult is particularly weak, find a source that says he makes saves others cannot and just strengthen the wording, perhaps using a quote to avoid someone potentially perceiving it as bias.
      • Y Done
    • "Hašek presents one of the most unorthodox styles of goaltending in hockey." He presents? Who does he present it to? Just say "has" it's tighter and more direct.
      • Y Done
    • Ref #10 needs formatting, ref #2 needs pub info. Also publishers should only be wikified the first time they appear in the reference section to avoid huge swathes of blue text. For instance, refs 14–16 all have The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel linked.
      • Question? What information would you like from the A-Z Encyclopedia? I don't think it has an official "publisher", but it has a list of credits with contacts, over 5 million hits, and a couple of awards for accuracy and comprehensiveness. --Wafulz 19:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Add WP:PDATA.
      • Y Done
    • Abbreviation formatting is incorrect the first time abbreviations appear, see WP:ABB.
    • an opposing coach once referred to them as "miracle saves." Needs a cite (which coach?).
      • Comment. It's cited, but the source only refers to him as "an opposing coach". --Wafulz 16:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm gonna stop now I'll come back and see if they were addressed before going on. If I have time I'll help out tomorrow or the day after. Quadzilla99 09:43, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
        • I believe I addressed all of your referencing inquiries. They are very consistent now. Sportskido8 20:02, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Nice work addressing those, here are some more, they mostly relate to tightening the prose:
    • "In 2002, Hašek became the first European starting goaltender to win the Stanley Cup when he led the Red Wings to a championship, setting a record for shutouts in a playoff year in the process" You could eliminate some extra words here. Saying Stanley Cup and then saying championship again seven words later is unnecessary. How about "While with the Red Wings in 2002, Hašek became the first European starting goaltender to win the Stanley Cup. In those playoffs, he set a record for shutouts in a playoff year."Y Done
    • "Hašek is considered a very unorthodox goaltender, with a distinct play style that has labeled him as a "flopper."" Shouldn't this be playing style?
      • A huge part of his career has been being labeled a "flopper" --Wafulz 16:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
        • No what I'm saying is it should be "Hašek is considered a very unorthodox goaltender, with a distinct playing style that has labeled him as a "flopper.""
          • I see the whole playing thing has been removed, that's even better. I changed to neutral, as all of the points I raised have been addressed, I 'll look it over later and see how it looks. Quadzilla99 01:09, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
    • "He is best known for his concentration, foot speed and flexibility. He is also known for his unusual habit of dropping his stick to grab a loose puck with his blocker hand rather than using the conventional trapper." Starting two sentences in a row with "he is known" is probably not the best way to go.Y Done
    • "Hašek has one of the most unorthodox styles of goaltending in hockey." Still needs a little tweaking, how about:"Hašek has one of the most unorthodox goaltending styles in hockey."Y Done
    • "Hašek started playing hockey at a very young age in his native Czechoslovakia. His competitive goaltending career began at the age of six, as he explains" This two sentences should be combined, they're taking a bunch of words to say he started playing when he was 6.Y Done
    • "At the age of 16, Hašek made the move to the top level of Czech hockey" how about "At the age of 16, Hašek moved to the top level of Czech hockey"? Tighter wording.Y Done
    • "He was drafted by the Chicago Blackhawks in 1983, and despite being a very talented player, he was selected in the 10th round, 199th overall." See which part of the sentence seems like an OR personal summary or weasel words. You could just say he was drafted relatively low or low in the draft. Best wording would be: "he was the xxth goalie drafted." Would also be interesting if he's one of the handful of greatest goalies ever and he was the 32nd goalie drafted in his draft or whatever.Y Done
      • He was the 17th goalie. Interestingly, Vladislav Tretiak was drafted the same year, and he was a pretty deep pick too (130 something)
    • "It would be several months before Hašek would find out that he was even drafted." extra words here too could be "Hasek did not even know he drafted until several months later." or something even tighter.Y Done
    • There's a lot of use of "would record" or "would go on", I used to do that until I got blasted for it on a FAC, just use recorded and went etc.Y Done
    • "Hašek continued his success with the Sabres in the 1996-97 season, but was overshadowed by a conflict between Hašek and then-head coach Ted Nolan, leading to a clique-like atmosphere and a lot of tension in the franchise." extra words. How about "Hašek's continued success in the 1996-97 season was overshadowed by a conflict with then-head coach Ted Nolan. The conflict led to a clique-like atmosphere and a lot of tension in the franchise."Y Done
      • That's all for now I'll check back later. In general try to see for any way you can eliminate superfluous words. Quadzilla99 18:41, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment, the "Inline hockey game incident" should be rewritten a little. It's not mentioned where it happened and what he was playing (although it's in the linked source). Also, names of the prosecutor, his lawyer or even the guy he supposedly attacked should not be there IMO.--Svetovid 18:19, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
    • I think the name of the supposedly attacked player should definitely stay. I am not so sure about the names of the other people, but their names were cited in the media writing about the incident, so they might stay here as well. If the names are there, it is easier to understand, who said or decided what. Jan.Kamenicek 17:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Tentative support. It's basically well-written, but needs a copy-edit throughout. Here are examples of why (don't fix just them).
    • In AmEng, hyphens are used less, but some US editors would still prefer them in "second-oldest active player", "eight-season span", and especially "European starting-goaltender" (I see that "15-season NHL career" is hyphenated, as is "league-best goals".) These are just from the lead. Later "top tier goaltender" and others.
      • I think it's important to not overuse hyphens. "Second oldest" doesn't seem like the kind of phrase that needs one, but I'll try and spot other places that do need them. Sportskido8 04:59, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
    • Good use of piped simple year links.
    • "From that point up until 1990"—Spot the redundant word.
    • "He was named the top ice hockey player in Czechoslovakia in 1987, 1989, and 1990, along with being namedand Czechoslovak Goaltender of the Year from 1986 through 1990."
    • "and only played 25 games over two seasons"—Place "only" as late as possible in a clause. "and played only 25 games over two seasons".
    • "in a 5-3 performance over the Buffalo Sabres, and on 9 January 1992, he recorded his first shutout in a 2-0 win". En dashes for relational numbers, such as scores: "5–3", "2–0", "1–1 tie", etc. Much easier to read. Just why we have "Buffalo (1996–1998)" as a title (although I'd prefer just "1996–98"), and straight after "1996-97" is a mystery. Tony 00:37, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
      • I believe all the EnDashes are taken care of now. I fixed a few other things from the list too, and will try and spot other problems of the same nature. Sportskido8 07:17, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I was asked to revisit my opinion based on recent copyediting. I feel that the article as improved but I've been copyediting the beginning of the article and I think there's still quite a bit to do. In fact, it's an ominous sign that I'm able to do so much copy-editing myself since I don't think I'm that good at fixing little details in the prose. So I still object to the promotion for now but as I said earlier, the article clearly has the potential to reach FA status after a thorough copyedit. Pascal.Tesson 20:14, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - Once again, Sportskido brings us an FA quality hockey article. Good citation, nice use of photos, I don't see many problems with the prose (maybe here & there as others have stated, but I'm not overly picky). Nice job!Anthony Hit me up... 17:00, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Weak support It's very good overall but there are still one or two issues. I went through and fixed the prose stuff I saw, the prose is OK now but not great. These are the last of what I can see though so fix these and I'll change to full support:
    • The opening sentence of the lead and the first sentence of the early life section need to be re-written per WP:DATE specifically here.
    • As a corollary to that, the opening sentences in the early life should probably begin something like "Dominik Hasek was the middle of three sons born to Yuri and Natasha Hasek in xxx. His father worked as an engineer, while his mother worked part-time at a local grocery store." Or whatever the information is. As it is now the article just barrels into his hockey career, he is a person too. The general reader finds this sort of information interesting. There is some info in the Off-The-Ice section but it should be moved to the Early Life section and expanded.
    • "However, Hašek claimed his knee was still injured and did not play in the five-game loss in the following series against the Philadelphia Flyers." This sentence needs a source. Also, why are we saying "Hasek claimed" here? Did the team doctor pronounce him fit to play and he still stated he couldn't? Or did the doctor not clear him to play?
    • "This upset many fans, who blamed Nolan's departure on Hašek's alleged attempt to rid him." This needs work "to rid him" is clunky, could be "to get rid of him" which is still informal or "drive him off" which is also informal". I can't think of anything else right now.
    • This Image:VezinaHasek.jpg needs a fair use rational.
    • The lead shouldn't be so heavily cited, as a matter of fact the lead doesn't need any citations at all as it is a summary of the article. Also the lead appears to have citations that are not repeated. This means that either the information appears in the text but is cited in the lead and not the text, which is backwards or the information doesn't appear in the text, which means the article introduces information in the lead which it doesn't cover in the text. Either way is incorrect.
    • I'd recommend that any stats or hard data have references. This shouldn't be hard just create a career stats ref and repeat it after after each mention of his stats.:"Hašek played 58 games with a league-best 1.95 Goals against average (GAA), seven shutouts, and a .930 save percentage."
    • "He missed forty games and failed to win a major NHL award for the first time in several years." Make this specific, "first time since 19xx-xx."
    • This is a run-on sentence:"During the conference finals against Colorado, he became the first goalie to be awarded an assist on an overtime game-winning goal in the post-season after passing the puck to Wings captain Steve Yzerman,[25] who then assisted Fredrik Olausson in scoring the final goal of the third game of that series"
    • "Throughout his long career, Hašek has been represented by agent Rich Winter." This just kind of pops up of nowhere, is the agent or their relationship notable? Try to put it in some kind of context, as it stands now its just random information and hence trivia. If you can't put it in context just axe it Quadzilla99 23:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
    • The "Inline hockey game incident" could probably use summarizing. Just mention he was in a fight but later cleared of the charges in 2-3 sentences, we don't need all the particulars. It probably doesn't need its own section either.
    • If I had to nitpick one other thing, I'd like to see more mention of the team's records in his career section. It shows the progression of the teams he playing on and puts things in perspective. Also, for stars like Hasek their teams records are often largely reflective of their performance and it gives the reader. One of the reasons Michael Jordan is regarded as the best B-Ball player of all time is because his teams won six championships and he led them to 72, 69, and 67 win seasons. I'm not syaing give him credit for their record just say "the Sabres won 56 games and..." Of course this is a personal preference, a lot of people like to keep that info the team articles. Quadzilla99 23:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.