Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Darjeeling

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[edit] Darjeeling

A town in the lower Himalaya in India, known for the Darjeeling tea produced in the area, the UNESCO World Heritage Site of Darjeeling Himalayan Railway and also as a tourist destination. The article underwent major edits since April this year and a peer review. Please help to make this article a Featured Article. Thanks a lot. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Strong Support excellent and comprehensive article. Rama's arrow 17:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Strong Support same as Rama. --Shane (talk/contrib) 17:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Well written & comprehensively referenced. Does qualify as Wikipedia's best work. --Srikeit (Talk | Email) 18:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Object Nothing happened until the 19th century?! In an area where civilizations exists thousands of years, I don't believe in that. --Pedro 19:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Reply. "Before the British arrived, the forests of the region, still preserved to a certain extent today in forest reserves, were home to a handful of Lepcha woodsmen."[1]. Not signicant. Civilization existed in India for thousands of year, true. But not all over India. Anyway, we'll try to find out if anything significant happened before the British came, from respectable sources. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 19:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
I strongly agree with Dwaipayan. Darjeeling, as with cities such as Bombay, Calcutta were mainly developed by the British. Darjeeling itself is a hill station, meant as a refuge for British soldiers. Prior to that, there were a few villages in the area. Rama's arrow 20:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
  • changed to weak support.--Pedro 11:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Object. A thorough copy-edit is needed. I looked at the very beginning of the History section to see about the claim made above, and I saw this as the opening sentence: "Till early nineteenth century, the area around Darjeeling was part of the kingdom of Sikkim." 'Till' is not an English word in this sense (it's a contraction for 'until'), and an article was missing. If the very first sentence I see in the article has two grammatical errors, I must object on the grounds of poor grammar. (I am also skeptical of the claim that nothing happened there before the 1800s, but I'll leave that out of this objection.) —Cuiviénen 20:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Please see this. I've copyedited the article and fixed your objections. Rama's arrow 22:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Comment. As someone totally unconnected to the article, till is not a contraction. Estrellador* 10:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Reply. That was an interesting link. History of till and untill. Anyway, does the usage in the article sound ok now? "Until the early..." Hope it is grammatically correct. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 11:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay, you're right. I was wrong. However, it was still missing an article. That said, I trust that a copyedit has now been done, so I'm removing my objection. It looks like a good article otherwise. —Cuiviénen 17:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Very good article; well-written and interesting. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
SV, the place is also very good. In case, you come to India, you should surely visit this place. --Bhadani 11:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Beautifully written with great pictures. A copyedit won't hurt, but quite good nevertheless. Some minor nits to pick:
  1. In the lead "Western-style public schools" should probably be "British style...", public school means something totally different in US, for example.
  2. "Darjeeling receives almost all the television channels that are received by the rest of the country." -- The sentence makes little sense until one sees that Darjeeling recieves very few radio channels, and the contrast between radio and TV is the information here. But the radio statement is made much later.
  3. "According to the Bureau of Indian Standards, the town falls under seismic zone-IV, (in a scale of I to V, in order of increasing proneness to earthquakes)[14]", but the reference provided seems to cite the Director of Nuclear Science Centre.

--ppm 17:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Reply "British-style" and Radio-TV contrast done. The reference of Director of Nuclear Science Centre states that Darjeeling lies in zone four, while wikilink of seismic zone-IV will take one to the article Earthquake hazard zoning of India where the whole matter is discussed in detail, with necessary references. Thanks.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Object. Not bad, but I have a few minor points: Jeronimo 18:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
    • Why is "Education and Media" not split up? It is basically two paragraphs, one on Education, one on Media. The same can be said of "Economy and Transport", "Government and Utility Services" and "Geography and Climate".
    • The population is listed as "1,07,530". Should it be 107,530 or something else?
    • The external links list could be better annotated, and perhaps be shortened.

Reply - Breaking up those sections will make them too short and throw the format out of order. They have been grouped on basis of similar topics - "Government and utilities" are closely linked, as are "Geography and climate," "Economy and transport." I've fixed the population notation and shortened the external links. Rama's arrow 21:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

      • Sorry, I still think these section should be separated. They're not too short on their own, and if they were, just throwing short sections together to make it appear long is bad practice, and a proper system of sections is one of the FA requirements. The other fixes look good. Jeronimo 19:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Your points have been addressed [[User:Rama's
Great, support. Jeronimo 21:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Arrow|Rama's arrow]] 19:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Support - Well written and comprehensive.-- thunderboltza.k.a.Deepu Joseph |TALK04:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Object—needs a thorough copy-edit. I wonder whether the reviewers above who are gushing about it have read the text closely. Fresh eyes are required to work this prose up to FA standards. There's quite a way to go. Let's take a look at the first paragraph, which should be your showcase.
"Darjeeling is a town and hill station in the Indian state of West Bengal. It is the headquarters of Darjeeling district, situated in the Shiwalik Hills (on the lower range of the Himalaya) at, at an average elevation of 2,134 m above sea level. Once ruled by the Kingdom of Sikkim, the Darjeeling region was converted into a hill station by the British East India Company in the 1800s, and came to be known as the "Queen of the Hills". The name Darjeeling is a composition of two the Tibetan words – Dorje ("thunderbolt") and ling ("place"), thus translating as the "Land of the thunderbolt."
    • "It" could refer to West Bengal or Darjeeling.
    • "Region"—It's introduced as a town and hill station; a region is much larger than this.
    • "1800s"—Can you narrow it down from a whole century?
    • "Darjeeling" when at issue as a term should probably be in quotes.
    • "Composition"—do you mean "combination"?
    • Remove the hyphen.
    • "Thus" is wrong here—there's no logical connection, so just remove it.

It's such a wonderful topic. Please do something about it. I have a secret list of copy-editors who are interested in India-related articles; haven't you got one too? Tony 12:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply 1800s could not be narrowed down, because the process started in 1830s and continued to late 1800s! Other comments have been addressed. Thanks Tony for the comments. We'll be waiting for further comments and will copyedit in the mean time.--Dwaipayan (talk) 12:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support The quality of prose is now better and seems adequate for me. -- Sundar \talk \contribs 07:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Object Support I am sorry to say this but all the meshed up sections like "Education and Media" make little sense to me. Their has to be a better way to present this information. Can this be changed? --Blacksun 18:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Your points have been addressed Rama's arrow 19:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)
Hey, thanks for incorporating the suggestions. I went ahead and moved a section on forestry into Georgraphy from Climate. --Blacksun 19:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Support: This is excellent, I've learnt a lot, I love the tea but am ashamed to say I had never given the place much thought . I love the photographs on these "Indian" pages as they bring the whole page to life. Well done. Giano | talk 22:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Strong Support - one of the best articles i have ever seen. i would love to see it on the front page. --GoOdCoNtEnT 07:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Further comment. Yes, as I, too, said before, there's a lot of good about this article. But if it met Criterion 2a, it would not be easy to locate poor sentences. Here are further examples, this time not from the lead, but the first section.
    • "In 1828, a delegation of British East India Company officials on their way to Sikkim halted in Darjeeling and found the region suitable to be a sanitarium for British soldiers." "Halted" is not the right word. The rest is problematic. Try: "In 1828, a delegation of British East India Company officials on their way to Sikkim stayed in Darjeeling and decided that the region was suitable as a sanitarium for British soldiers."
    • Caption under map: "Darjeeling's proximity to Sikkim, Bhutan and Nepal is showcased in this political map of Sikkim." "Showcased" is the wrong word here. "Highlighted" is possible, but why amplify? Just use "shown" or "illustrated".
    • I see "nineteenth century" and "19th century" a paragraph later. Choose one form and use consistently.
    • Awkward repetition: "the Company, the Company"
    • "That by 1856 became"—"had become".
    • "acts and regulations of the British Raj did not automatically come into force in the district in line with rest of the country"—Remove the last seven words as obvious? More importantly, "come into force" suggests only the onset—and only new acts and regulations from that time. What you need, I think, is simply "apply".
    • "An increasing number of well-to-do Indian residents of Kolkata (then Calcutta) also began visiting and touring Darjeeling." "Also"? Is this another act or habit of well-to-do Indians? (No.) Are they in addition to other visitors to Dajeeling? (No.) Why "also"?
    • "The town did not see any particular political activity". Awkward; try "The town did not see significant political activity".

Now, I haven't got any further, but something tells me that it will be the same: every second sentence is faulty. Please fix the whole text and I'll be pleased to review again. I love the topic, and when the prose is "compelling", it will make me want to go to D. Tony 12:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Please check these changes. I've fixed the problems I saw and found across the article. I don't think there are other problems, but please let us know if there is anything else. Rama's arrow 16:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment – I agree with Tony, it could do with some refining... I'll try and copyedit tomorrow. The high elevation and lower temperatures in the summer made it attractive as a hill station -- reads as if high elevation is a necessary factor for building a hill station. Instead how about "temperate climate"? ; and neighbouring countries --> name them at least in the =Education=' Climate section needs to be merged with =Geog= or be promoted. Englishmen would be incorrect.. I'm sure there were Scottish missionaries too. Why is 'Sadar' italicised? Will review later. =Nichalp «Talk»= 18:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Object – I've got to object. The article needs some more work with a copyedit and MoS. Some points:
  • I've embedded some comments in the text. Please go through them
  • Chogyal -- why italics?
  • Campbell became the first superintendent of the sanitorium in 1839 -- why this information?
  • the latter annexed the Darjeeling -- when?
  • Tea estates developed all around Darjeeling -- why?
  • rapid communication --? Rapid would be slow in today's terms. I'm sure the invention of the telegraph would have made communications faster.
  • Non-Regulation District -- why?
  • ...described by the British as the "Darjeeling disaster. Sentence is an anticlimax
  • who visited Darjeeling every summer -- cpedit
  • The population growth of the area was slow in the first half of the 20th century -- choppy prose; flow with the text
  • ... Darjeeling became a part of the state... -- Darjeeling was merged with the state of WB
  • 6,982 ft. or 2,134 m -- metric units first
  • Sadar -- italics? why?
  • looming over the town is a famous sight -- -touristy prose
  • barely crossing -- "barely"? rarely would be a better word
  • see temperature -- cpedit
  • drop below freezing, inducing snowfall -- the temperatures need not drop below freezing at ground level to induce snowfall. It can snow even at warmer temperatures.
  • two police stations, at -- comma unnecessary
  • collected from them -- from them is redundant.
  • a nearby small perennial creek -- creek by definition in India is usually a tidal estuary
  • as well as neighbouring countries -- would that be Sri Lanka?
  • "tough" competition?
  • crafts of Sikkim and Tibet. -- reduce overlinking
  • a three hour (approx. 90 km) drive -- use distances not time.
  • Imperial units lacking for many metric units throughout the article
  • Walking, biking, ... the monsoons due to landslides. -- cpedit needed
  • ICSE and CBSE are known by their acronyms
  • Remove external links not pertaining to the town.

=Nichalp «Talk»= 11:01, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply. Thanks Nichalp. I've addressed most of your comments. See this, this, this and this changes. However, the following is not done/partially done: effect of the "Darjeeling disaster" (trying to find out references);copyedit of temperatures; and "Walking, biking, ... the monsoons due to landslides" copyedit. Please help. One question: is it necessary to merge Climate with Geography because of the brief content of the "Climate"? Though WikiProject Indian cities states that Climate should be merged with Geography or could be a stand alone section, there are examples where cilmate is a subsection under Geography (eg Chennai, Kolkata). Regards, and thanks a lot. Thank god you are back!--Dwaipayan (talk) 10:53, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

  1. smooth communication between -- I don't think it's necessary.
  2. This scheme of administration was applicable to less advanced districts in the British Raj -- can be merged with previous
  3. Darjeeling disaster" was...population is bland. Rewrite as: In 1898 Darjeeling was rocked by an earthquake..killed..(is the magnitude given?)
  4. Last few sentences in +Transport is choppy.

=Nichalp «Talk»= 19:45, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply
"Smooth communication"..removed. "scheme of administration"...merged (please see). "Darjeeling disaster"...changed. Transport...changed (please see). Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. I also have a few comments. First, the name of the city is written as "दार्जीलिङ" in Hindi, shouldn't it be "दार्जीलिंग". The Sikkimpolitical.png map requires time and effort on part of the reader to locate Darjeeling. Is it possible to highlight Darjeeling using some different colour scheme (this may require creating another map). There is break in continuity of sentence flow when one reaches the "Darjeeling disaster" part. It comes out of the blue without introduction, inherently assuming that reader is aware of it. A better structure would be: "An earthquake in 1898 (known as "Darjeeling disaster") caused considerable damage to the young town and the native population." The article mentions that Darjeeling was merged with West Bengal after partition, but I couldn't find any mention of its status before, and that may require mention (I may have possibly missed the mention). Repetitive wikilinking of measuring units should be avoided. The article uses endashes where emdashes would be more appropriate. I find it odd to find that there are only two police stations at Darjeeling and Jorebungalow. "110231 lb" needs to be changed to either "110,000 lb" or "110,200 lb" according to WP:MOSNUM. Why is Satyajit Ray (as a director) singled out? Such references are usually needed only when there are multiple movies of the same name. The "55" in NH-55 can be linked to the list of national highways. Rest looks fine. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 05:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
reply History image changed. Darjeeling disaster...changed. The status of the region before 1947 has been mentioned. Over-wikilinking of units removed. Yes, there are 2 police stations (as the reference says). WP:MOSNUM has been followed now. Satyajit Ray removed. NH 55 linked. More will follow. Thanks a lot.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the Hindi is correct. The Bengali uses a final anusvara (nasal sign) so it would be correct to use ङ over ग. In addition, a Google search has way more results for "दार्जीलिङ". Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 14:53, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I've reluctantly struck my objection; I'll be keen to see this text polished over the next few weeks. I still see a few uncomfortable constructions, such as the following examples in the lead:

"Darjeeling is noted for several British-style public schools attracting students from many parts of India and neighbouring countries." These two ideas would be integrated better thus: "Darjeeling is noted for several British-style public schools, which attract students from many parts of India and neighbouring countries." Among other things, this avoids momentary confusion over the grammar ("schools' attracting")—or is it "Darjeeling's attracting" of those students? Maybe both, but your grammar should be clear in choosing one, unless you want to reword. And please don't tell the readers what to note. ("Darjeeling has several ...")

What does "Over time" add in the second para? So vague, so remove, because we know it must have taken time to occur, or specify the time frame in a way that is useful for the readers.

"Led to it being developed as ..."—Ungainly construction. Try nominalising it: "... led to its development as ...".

"a few villages of Lepcha woodsmen"—There were womenfolk, presumably, so let's be modern and reword ("woodspeople"?).

Some commas are a matter of personal preference, but I think on close reflection that most people would be happy with a few more judiciously placed commas.

It's borderline. Tony 03:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Lead sentences changed. Hopefully copyedits by others will improve the article.--Dwaipayan (talk) 14:31, 17 August 2006 (UTC)