Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Adore (album)

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 03:52, 21 April 2007.

[edit] Adore (album)

  • A (not very successful) album by The Smashing Pumpkins. It is currently ranked as a Good Article, has had two Peer Reviews (June 2005 and February 2007), and most recently was the Alternative music WikiProject Collaboration of the Week. I now believe that it is fit to be a Featured Article, or so close that only a few minor edits will make it so. --Brandt Luke Zorn 03:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Oh, and I suppose this would additionally count as a self-nomination. --Brandt Luke Zorn 05:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - I think the outtakes section needs to be sourced. Also, it seems a little weird that of the two audio clips used in this article, one isn't even from the album in question. Wickethewok 20:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment I've removed the Smashing Pumpkins clip that isn't from this album - the rationale for putting it there in the first place was that it influenced much of this album. I'm currently looking for citations for the Outtakes section. --Brandt Luke Zorn 22:58, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment The Outtakes section is now sourced. --Brandt Luke Zorn 07:26, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Object per 1a. At the end of the articles there's a table under "Charts" which violates 1a, and as this is FAC and not FLC it can be turned into prose. LuciferMorgan 04:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • You mean you want the chart tables turned into prose? If not, I'm confused over what you're asking to be done, and I haven't yet seen a charts section without tables. --Brandt Luke Zorn 05:30, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
It's not WP:POINT as I've objected per the 1. a. criterion actually, so don't hesitate to forget that. Furthermore, if I objected at your FAC ShadowHalo but not here (as they have the same issues) then that would mean I'm picking and choosing which I object to which would be biased wouldn't it? LuciferMorgan 22:16, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • So it should have a description of chart performances similar to, say, Hollaback Girl#Chart Performance? There's already (somewhat) a discussion of the album's sales here, though it isn't as in-depth as the Chart Performance section at Hollaback Girl. --Brandt Luke Zorn 17:44, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
My point is the table is redundant. You have a "Reception and Aftermath" section already so are duplicating info - if you wish to keep the table info you could integrate the info into that section. LuciferMorgan 22:19, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I see what you mean, but the Reception and aftermath section is more general in its description of sales - e.g., it shows how many copies were sold total and other broad information. The charts section is more specialized in that it shows how well the album and singles did on specific charts, in a manner that is easy to read. Prose version of chart performance can be, despite their benefits, difficult to read and tedious to write. Besides, even if the entire chart performance was typed out in prose, a table still wouldn't be redundant, because it just presents the same information in an alternative method. --Brandt Luke Zorn 00:47, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Strongly disagree with tables to text. Ceoil 00:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
No, objecting to 1(a) is not WP:POINT. And neither is objecting at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Love. Angel. Music. Baby. But once you have brought it up there and at Wikipedia talk:Record charts and the consensus from every user (aside from yourself) who has voiced an opinion is that the tables of chart positions should be kept, then continuing to make these objections at other articles is becoming pointy. If you disagree with the MoS, the answer is to generate discussion at the appropriate talk page(s), not to disrupt the FAC process with tangential discussions of the guideline in question. ShadowHalo 03:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Support. It's very good, but needs some work and a thorough copy edit:
  • "It seemed that these comments were unfounded, however, a year later in June 1997 when the Pumpkins released their first single since their last album, Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness, "The End is the Beginning is the End" for the Batman and Robin soundtrack." - Badly ordered snake sentence. Loose "It seemed", and cut in two.
  • "In August 1997, the three remaining band members entered" - remaining? Statment has not been qualified.
  • "and they instead recruited previous producer Flood to serve as engineer" - awkward phrasing.
  • "Listening carefully, one can hear the original "Lost Highway" recording in the bridge of the song." - WP:NOR.
  • "Its instrumentation is similar to that in "Eye"." - needs to be cited; rephrase as "to that of Eye".
  • "Adore is drastically different in approach and style from previous Pumpkins albums, and distorted guitars were notably absent from the album." - "drastically" in paticular needs to be cited.
  • "The use of electronic instruments and drum machines gives the album an ambiance not heard before in the Pumpkins' music" - cite.
  • The "Outtakes" section, to me at least, is low value info and borderline trivia - my preference would be to remove.
Overall a strong article, and I look forward to registering a support. Ceoil 00:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment Ok, I've fiddled with the problems you've mentioned and I hope that the article is now satisfactory. The one thing that I'm still reluctant to do is to remove the Outtakes section; However, if a considerable amount of other people complain about it then I will remove it. --Brandt Luke Zorn 01:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Not a fan of the Outtakes section, but overall: nice work, have switched to support. Ceoil 10:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you for your support and your work on the article! --Brandt Luke Zorn 05:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Oppose - There are a few things that I believed should be fixed/added before this article becomes an FA:
    • The lead should be expanded a little, can actual sales figures be included (rather then just saying there were less sales then Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie?).
    • Please reference the following statements:
      • "In January 1996 The Smashing Pumpkins released "1979", the band's most successful single and their first foray into electronic music." - mainly ref it being their most successful single.
      • "Melvoin died of an overdose, and Chamberlin was arrested and charged for possession."
      • "The song incorporated electronic elements, yet retained the hard rock edge of the band's previous material, making much of the Pumpkins' earlier statements of a change in style seemed unfounded." - without a ref this seems like OR.
      • "Corgan later remarked that the recording of the song and the experience with Rubin was unsuccessful, and it was not included on the album." -where did he remark this?! Needs a ref.
      • "Adore is drastically different in approach and style from previous Pumpkins albums, and distorted guitars were notably absent from the album."
      • The Music section has only two references. Much of it could be viewed as either POV or OR without adequate references. I'm not going to list every individual statement that needs refs here. But it is a lot.
      • "These odd venues were usually shortened sets, however, and full shows were played in more traditional venues."
      • "The Pumpkins hired a much larger number of musicians for this tour than they ever had previously."
      • "The line-up for the tour, excluding the core band members, included Kenny Aronoff on drums, Mike Garson on piano and keyboards, Stephen Hodges and Dan Morris on percussion, and Lisa Germano on violin."
      • "This large line-up enabled the band to put together new arrangements of their new songs, leaving most of them to sound quite different from their album versions; for example, the quiet acoustic song "To Sheila" was turned into a lengthy, powerful song with a full band, and the electronically driven single "Ava Adore" was turned into a distorted short rock song."
      • "It finished with merely 2 singles - a third, "Crestfallen", was planned but never released."
    • Wiki-link "July 11"
    • They donated money to charity, which charity (or charities)?
Anyway I do think those references should be added. Thanks. - Shudda talk 23:07, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
The first thing that I want to note is that this reference covers the entire paragraph involving Chamberlin and Melvoin overdosing. I'll either find citations for or remove the other statements, but that was the first thing that I wanted to say. -Brandt Luke Zorn 01:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
A reader wouldn't necessarily know that. To quote a ref multiple times use <ref name="name"/>. - Shudda talk 05:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Okay, the information has either been removed or cited, and I used the <ref name="blah" /> thing for the "Chamberlin gets the boot" paragraph. If you see anything else that seems odd, feel free to bring it up. --Brandt Luke Zorn 05:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, reading through have found some other things, please comment:
  • "Adore is drastically different in approach and style from previous Pumpkins albums"
  • "Piano is dominant in most songs"
  • "Apart from being the first album without Jimmy Chamberlin, Adore was the first album to not include writing contributions from Iha"
Things that I havn't struck havn't been addressed. Was also wondering, I heard, I believe it was on the documentary the band released when they disbanded D'arcy say something along the lines of "We were planning on spending 8 hours a day 5 days a week in the studio recording Adore - yeah right". She was basically complaining they spent huge hours recording, as in previous albums, when they had originally decided not to work so insanely hard on this album. Seems rather important not to be included, can someone look into this? - Shudda talk 01:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not familiar with the documentary you've mentioned, and imdb doesn't turn up any results for a documentary. Was the documentary part you saw part of another smashing pumpkins film? I have fixed, removed, rephrased, or removed everything you've listed. --Brandt Luke Zorn 02:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
There was supposed to be an Adore documentary, but it was never released. They may have shown parts of it on MTV around the time the album came out. WesleyDodds 02:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
If anyone can find a copy of this or otherwise cite it from a reliable source, that's fine. But I don't think that it needs to be a priority to feature it, especially if we can't even confirm that any released copy of it exists right now. --Brandt Luke Zorn 03:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe it's this documentary "Full circle". I can't be sure until I've seen the documentaries though, I'm looking up on youtube but may not have any luck. - Shudda talk 03:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
On YouTube, the part of the documentary covering Adore ([1]) doesn't have any input from D'arcy at all. I may add something from the video as a reference, but it doesn't look like that's the source you were referring to. --Brandt Luke Zorn 05:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, well it's something that would well be worth finding and adding. If I do find out where it is from I will post on the articles' talk page. - Shudda talk 10:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Comment. A well-written article. There's not much about the lyrical themes of the album however. Did the album have a lasting legacy? CloudNine 12:38, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
I added a section on lyrics to the "Reception and aftermath" section, and there already is a section on the album's legacy in the "Reception and aftermath" section. If either needs editing, just ask. --Brandt Luke Zorn 00:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Great. Those were the only things that I felt should be in the article. Changed my vote to support. CloudNine 08:21, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.