Talk:Faye Wong

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	Faye Wong was a nominee for Social sciences and society good article, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
March 14, 2007 Good article nominee Not listed

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WikiProject Biography     (Rated B-Class) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page. Biography Portal B This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ] This article is supported by WikiProject Musicians, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed biographical guide to musicians and musical groups on Wikipedia. More information about this article... The following comments have been left for this page: i have nominated this article for Good Article status. i originally rated it 'b' (for WPBiography) because it is frowned upon to rate articles higher than that without a more detailed review, and because the other ratings had it as 'b'. it seems to meet all of the criteria for GA status, and any additional improvements will likely need to be suggested by those more familiar with the topic (i am merely looking for technical criteria such as formatting, citations, infoboxes, etc.) --Sapphic 18:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC) (edit) WikiProject Chinese-language entertainment     (Rated B-Class) This article is under the scope of WikiProject Chinese-language entertainment. If you would like to help improve this and other Chinese-language entertainment-related articles, feel free to join the project. B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (see comments) More information about this article... High This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale. WikiProject China     (Rated B-Class) This article is part of WikiProject China, a project to improve all China-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other China-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome. B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale. (see comments) More information about this article... High This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale. WikiProject Hong Kong (Rated B-Class) Hong Kong Portal This article is part of WikiProject Hong Kong, a project to coordinate efforts in improving all Hong Kong-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Hong Kong-related articles, you are invited to join this project! B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. See comments Mid This article has been rated as mid-importance on the Project's importance scale. Hong Kong To-do: edit purge Clean up all MTR station pages. They are literally all over the place. Two model pages are Tsing Yi Station and Sheung Shui Station. They each describe a feature special to the station, Station layout, exit, and connections, as well as neighbouring stations and the station "box". We will also need plenty of updated pictures (e.g. removing all KCR-related images except those on the KCR article). Check that all pages have basically the same language structure as Tsing Yi Station and Sheung Shui Station. Links to location maps are good too. (Should also perform these checks on Chinese Wikipedia.) Clean-up pages that link with TVB, especially its series pages. WikiProject Buddhism (Rated B-Class) This article falls within the scope of WikiProject Buddhism, an attempt to promote better coordination, content distribution, and cross-referencing between pages dealing with Buddhism. Please participate by editing the article Faye Wong, or visit the project page for more details on the projects. Guidelines: Chinese Manual of Style - Naming conventions Indic Manual of Style - Naming conventions Japanese Manual of Style Korean Manual of Style - Naming conventions Tibetan Proposed naming conventions B This article has been rated as B-class on the quality scale. ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale. Article Grading: The following comments were left by the quality and importance raters: (edit · refresh) i have nominated this article for Good Article status. i originally rated it 'b' (for WPBiography) because it is frowned upon to rate articles higher than that without a more detailed review, and because the other ratings had it as 'b'. it seems to meet all of the criteria for GA status, and any additional improvements will likely need to be suggested by those more familiar with the topic (i am merely looking for technical criteria such as formatting, citations, infoboxes, etc.) --Sapphic 18:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
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WikiProject Echo has identified Faye Wong as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the Chinese language Wikipedia.

Archives

Archive 1

[edit] Cleanup Suggestions

What should be done about the cleanup tag? The Chinese Wiki page on Faye Wong has quite a bit more information, perhaps we should get some ideas there (as suggested by the echo tag above this page)?--Lasersharp 18:39, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

We should start with listing sources where this information has come from. I suppose most of it is from Faye Wong websites. I've got my information from the following websites:

Josh's Fayevourite Faye Wong Page:

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/8598/faye/

All About Ah Faye:

http://www.wongfaye.org

As to where these sites get their information concerning certain things is a different story. There is numerous sources such as magazines, interviews, movies, and so on. I think I'd be difficult to get sources for everything on here, to be honest. Jason Gervais 10:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Can somebody add some information on her Only Love Strangers album? It's the only empty field right now. --Lasersharp 16:06, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed the stub tag from Only Love Strangers, as it should be okay now. We should now concentrate on the Scenic Tour one now. 1998 was the year she was interviewed by CNN, but I don't know much information about that. I've seen the interview, but I don't have a date as to when it took place. Maybe someone can help with that. Jason Gervais 19:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References

I think we ought to have a standardized reference section, for example see Madonna's page Lasersharp 06:06, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, let's do it. I'll be happy to help. Do you have another source for the world record? Guinness World Records have changed their site, and it now features only a selection of the 40,000 records in the Guinness World Records database -- not including Cantopop. I guess we can still refer to them as the source, stating the date you checked it (June 2006), without a link. Fayenatic london 20:50, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

OK, that's done. Now we can add more references to the article when we find reliable sources. Fayenatic london 14:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

looking good, thanks for your time!Lasersharp 03:22, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the third one, where it says Faye quits for love. There is no solid proof she quit or anything. She's on a break from singing for awhile, I believe. Maybe it should be reworded? Jason Gervais 18:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The text of the Wikipedia article is correct, "her manager confirmed that she might retire". The reference text is a direct quote of the headline given at the source page, which I think is normal practice for citations. However, you have a point, so I've moved the quote marks to indicate that "to quit" is part of a news headline rather than a fact. Fayenatic london 13:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

- Rejoice with me, I found a copy of the old Guinness World Records page at the Internet Archive! I'd never even heard of that site before, but read about it on Wikipedia while trying to research whether we can post links to YouTube. I didn't reach a conclusion on that. I noticed that someone has just added a YouTube link to Madonna on Letterman so let's see if that is allowed to remain. Fayenatic london 14:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

- Well, all four Youtube links have just been deleted from the article I just mentioned, citing copyright violations, so I guess we should not link to YouTube videos in our Refs. However, I don't see why we couldn't give some search criteria that help to locate relevant evidence on YouTube. Fayenatic london 21:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel we should link to VeryCD in the references, since that place is full of illegal activity. Haven't the people involved with this site rip and share Faye Wong's material and make it readily available as a torrent? Jason Gervais 09:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello? I posted the last comment almost a month ago. Jason Gervais 23:52, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

I've left it there so far as it includes some info I haven't seen on other pages, e.g. a longer list of Faye's favourite artists including Whitney Houston and Zhang Ya Dong (张亚东). If we can find another source for these that appears to be more original/reliable, then let's include that and drop VeryCD. Fayenatic london 10:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tag Removal

Are we ready to remove the tags on the top of the article or should more work be done to clean things up? I just finished cleaning up the intro to be more neutral Lasersharp 22:15, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are only 10 references so far, and a lot of unsourced claims that can't be verified from CD sleeve notes. I think we should give much more evidence. If anyone needs to check the pattern for the Ref format that is now used in the article, click on the References section, as it is documented there. We should also add an "External Links" section. Fayenatic london 22:26, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I added some references, but forgot to adhere to the reference format rules. I will correct it when I have some more time. Lasersharp 04:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Album Covers

If anyone has some time, I think we ought to place an album cover next to each album introduced, like the one done for Fable already. Lasersharp 04:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

My initial reaction is that this would be more than is required for an encyclopaedia article. The discography article has links to external sites which include these. However, I've been thinking for some time that we should at least include the cover of Chang You (1998) as it was such an iconic image. One question first: are we sure there are no copyright problems over album art? Fayenatic london 10:59, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I checked and there is no problem showing album art. It's one of the categories of image that is always OK. Fayenatic london

How can we add covers for her other albums when the article isn't exactly coherent? It seems that it's kind of split into two. I like the idea of splitting the years up as was done with EMI period (1997-2001) and Sony period (2002-Present). However for Innovation as Faye Wong it's completely different. I'd be a disaster if we add covers in there at present time. Jason Gervais 06:44, 11 Janurary 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Standardization of Album Sections

We should reformat the stuff under "Alternative Experiments" so that each album there is contained in a separate subsection. In essence, it should in my opinion adhere to the format set under the "EMI Period" section. Lasersharp 17:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've done that. Fayenatic london

[edit] Structure of article

Spurred by Gh87's insertion of a "wikify" tag, I also rearranged the article, separating personal life from music career. Somebody else quickly removed the tag anyway. Fayenatic london 23:21, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Another user has contacted me to say the article has too many subsections, and it ruins the article. I'm not sure I agree, but I do think the article looks worse since I rearranged it. The reason is that I introduced two new "level 2" headings, Music career and Personal life, so all the other headings had to go down one level. Level 3 and 4 headings look too similar to each other. Level 3 and 5 look better in my opinion -- I tried it in two browsers; does anybody agree? See demo here: [1]. That's using level 5 for the album titles. However, leaving out a level of titles does not follow the Wiki Manual of Style.

There are problems with the content as well, e.g. the commentary under Faye_Wong#1997_Faye_Wong refers to her motherhood, but at the moment her motherhood is only mentioned in Faye_Wong#Personal_life i.e. after the end of Faye_Wong#Music_career.

So, I propose to re-order the article as it was, mixing music career with personal life. All the headings in both these sections will become one step more major. Do others agree? Fayenatic london 23:53, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Ya, now that I looked it over, it is a little tedious. I probably shouldn't have made the suggestion to subsection it even more earlier. Now I think it's better grouping stuff together inside her Music Career in bigger sections separated by years (i.e. 1968-1989, 1994-1999 etc). How does that sound? We should only add personal life stuff in the music career section if there is evidence her music changed due to changes in her personal life, in my opinion. Any other information should still be in a separate section on its own. Lasersharp 01:17, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I've restructured it again and it seems much better. However, I haven't taken any personal stuff out of the section on music career. Fayenatic london 13:04, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Statements that still need to be sourced

I suggest copy+pasting them here so we can all look for them? Lasersharp 01:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I would like to see some evidence for the claim that she is "Widely considered the most commercially and artistically distinguished female vocalist in recent Chinese music history". Obviously this depends how you define recent, but as a Hong Kong resident, my impression would be that either Teresa Teng or Anita Mui would better fit this accolade if "recent" is taken to mean the last two or three decades. Rodparkes 03:49, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The three sources for this statement describe her wide appeal during the last 15 years. I guess I could've reworded it to be "one of the most..." although neither Ms. Teng or Ms. Mui wrote their own music. I'd like to hear what people suggest here. Lasersharp 23:51, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The statement really is very specific. It suggests that Faye Wong is pretty much the most popular singer above all singers in recent Chinese music with no exceptions and that this is a common belief within the industry. I think alot of Faye fans would probably agree with such a statement, but this is like saying "The Shining" is the greatest movie ever and would everyone agree? No. Faye was and still is very popular in the industry, but such a statement suggests that nobody has successfully competed with her. I'm not sure about album sales, but I'm sure when her albums released she had some sort of competition with other artists. Anyway, I think it should be changed to add "one of the most..." Jason Gervais 23:49, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese characters

I didn't realize there was a Wikipedia style guide that says not to use Chinese characters if there is an article about the subject that already includes characters. Where is this style guide? That would certainly be something I should familiarize myself with...

I am a strong proponent of adding native text to article when it helps disambiguate transliteration differences. I spent most of my early wikipedian days mainly adding native text to title term of articles. On the opposite, I also dislike having unnecessary native text imbedded in the articles because it disrupts the flow of reading. I wrote more of my opinion on this matter on my user page. I am also interested in a link to the style guide if any. Kowloonese 22:16, Mar 4, 2005 (UTC)

The style guide is at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (China-related articles), and the first section "Insertion of Chinese characters" mentions the guideline. -- Curps 23:33, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I have just discovered the {{linktext}} function, and have added it around the Chinese characters in all versions of Faye's name, "tianhou" in the top section, and Decadent Sound. As a result, you can click on any of those characters to go to a page that gives its pronunciation and meaning. Do others think this is helpful, and should it be extended to other Chinese characters in the article, especially song titles? Fayenatic london 00:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New picture?

How about a new picture on the article? The currently one displays her as ugly, and that's something she's not. C'mon, just look at it. Please find a new picture. I know it's hard with all that copyright mambo-jambo, but this one scares people away. --Count Zar 12:35, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

agree, a constant rotation would be nice. the current image is for shock value I guess :) Lasersharp 07:58, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I actually added the previous photo, and I saw nothing wrong with it. Her being "ugly" is simply only a matter of opinion and is not a good reason to change a photo over personal beliefs. However, I do agree with a rotation of the image every few months (say every three months?) just to keep the article interesting. Jason Gervais 10:23, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't really like this one from 2046. You don't really get a good look of what she looks like with this one. Her back is turned to the camera, only shows half of her face... maybe appropriate for a character profile in the 2046 article, but not in Faye's article. I think we need one where you can get a good look of what she looks like. Jason Gervais 06:54, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the problem is finding one that adheres to Wikipedia's licensing regulations.Lasersharp 15:18, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

An idea would be to find photos which her fans took during promotions or concerts and have the authors release their rights on Wikipedia for this article to use them. Lasersharp 16:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

How about using low-resolution images taken as screen captures from music videos? Most of the images on Madonna (entertainer) are justified this way, e.g. [2]. I could do a few of those if you think it's a good idea. Another suggestion is to use alternative images from album covers. Fayenatic london 19:59, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

those are good ideas. Lasersharp 21:08, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Are pictures within album booklets fine as well? I think we should pick something within her 1998 Scenic Tour album since I think the front cover image for that album is her most popular one, isn't it? I guess maybe it's just a matter of opinion on that one though. Jason Gervais 10:20, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know whether the new link to a Russian fan site should stay at the end of the article, but the site does have some pictures that would be ideal if we could use them! Anybody know enough Russian to ask? [3] Fayenatic london 22:36, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Not too keen on this new image either. I think the image this comes from is an important album for Faye Wong and would reflect the article well but perhaps it's just a matter of taste but I've never really liked the images of Faye for her Restless album, so again, maybe this is just reflecting my judgement. Maybe some alternate images could be posted here in the talk page and we pick what would work best? Jason Gervais 20:18, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough - it was the best that I could do in a few minutes, when Image:FayeWong2046presskit.jpg was tagged with a threat of deletion; it needs more detailed justification. The justifications used for the images in the Madonna article may help.

The reviewer left me the note below, which I found surprisingly strict. Let's ask on the wongfaye.org forum or livejournal etc for donated images. Fayenatic london (talk) 00:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Image:Restless PRC cover.jpg should not be used in the infobox. Essentially, album covers can illustrate the albums and screenshots can illustrate the video; however, since they're copyrighted they shouldn't be used to illustrate Faye Wong herself. I'll put a photo request on the talk page to see if a free image can hopefully pop up. ShadowHalo 22:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

any luck on finding a photo that can be used? In time I'm sure someone has got to have taken a photo of Faye that they're willing to release the rights for the article. Unfortunately many of these phototakers are probably in Asia. perhaps we ought to ask in faye's asian fan sites? Lasersharp 01:18, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I just contacted a Flickr user ("770") who apparently took several during a concert, let's see if the user agrees with a license change (the current one does not allow commercial reuse, which makes it incompatible with Wikipedia). You can see one of his pictures here. An advice: don't try to contact him for other images, as I have already seen some Flickr users who felt too much "pressure" and just "disappeared". Now, we can just wait. -- ReyBrujo 02:52, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

How about this one? It's taken by the fan and it shows a relatively recent Faye clearly. Lasersharp 06:02, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I find it abit blurry and low-quality like. I think we also need a picture of JUST Faye Wong in it, nobody else with her, beside her, etc. Jason Gervais 18:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.101.37.31 (talk • contribs).

User 770 agreed to relicense the image, allowing me to upload it to Wikimedia Commons and use it here. Yes, I know some will say that it is a 3 year old image, that it does not look as good as a promotional image, etc. However, this is a free image, compatible with our goals, and according to our Fair use criteria #1, if we need to choose between a free and a fair use image, we go for the free one. If you don't like it, well, feel free to find a better free image ;-) -- ReyBrujo 21:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

thanks for doing that. when we get more free photos available can you help us upload it to Commons? Lasersharp 07:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure, no problem. You can also register an account there if necessary. -- ReyBrujo 13:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External Links

As you can see, that section was tagged. We should discuss on what links should stay and which should be removed. Links which helped create the article should remain while the others should be removed. Jason Gervais 09:42, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

They should all stay, I used all of them for information on the artist. I don't understand the tag at all. Lasersharp 18:45, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't tag it. I figured they all pertained to the article and just wanted to make sure. If there is nothing else to add, then I guess we should remove the tag. Jason Gervais 20:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   a (fair representation): b (all significant views):

5. It is stable.

   

6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.

   a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): [[Image:|15px]] c (non-free images have fair use rationales):

7. Overall:

   a Pass/Fail:

I'm failing this article for GA status. Here are some things to fix before nominating again. References go immediately after the punctuation mark (Hi.^[1] instead of Hi. ^[2]). Don't link lone years. There are huge sections of uncited text. The image in the infobox is replaceable and should be moved to an appropriate section or deleted all together. All of the copyrighted images need detailed fair use rationales. Trivia sections are bad. There doesn't appear to be any reason to need to know her eyeglass prescription; move any relevant information to the appropriate place and delete the rest. ShadowHalo 22:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Talkpage Cleanup?

Maybe we should consider cleaning up the talkpage alittle bit? Not sure how cleaning up talk pages work out, but I guess they are archived or something? I just think this page is getting alittle crowded. Jason Gervais 20:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Good idea. Easily done - just add /Archive_01 (or whatever) at the end of the URL to create a subpage. I've moved what I judged to be completed discussions to Talk:Faye_Wong/Archive_01 and made a link to it at the top of this page. - Fayenatic london (talk) 01:05, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What parts still need sources/references?

I'd like the community to help us list the parts of this article that still need to be sourced, in order to increase its verifibility. Lasersharp 17:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• All references to how albums were received by critics
• album sales
• rising profile in Asia from 1997
• contracts e.g. EMI contract value
• "spokesperson" for brands (should be easy)
• direct quotation from Faye in 1997, and indirect quote re "To Love"
• the section on Nick Tse. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

• "Best Actress" award at the 1994 Stockholm International Film FestivalY 20 April 2007 and in 2046. - The 2046 article states her roles in the film and gives sources; do we need more evidence that they were notable? - Fayenatic london (talk)
• She is known to many Final Fantasy fans for her Final Fantasy VIII theme "Eyes On Me"
• Proof that she is labeled a gay icon among the gay community.Y Done - not that it connects this to her movie roles. It only refers to Taiwan, so I've changed the article accordingly. I'll add the quotation to the archived talk page discussion on the subject. - Fayenatic london (talk) 20:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
• Adopting her mother's maiden name because the Wang family was persecuted during the Cultural Revolution (her grandfather was a Republic of China congressman when it governed the mainland).
• Faye has named the Scottish post-punk group Cocteau Twins among her favourite bands Y 20 April 2007

There is more but I have to head out. Jason Gervais 10:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How did she learn Cantonese?

It's not made clear in the article how someone from Beijing could learn to speak Cantonese well enough to sing in it. It's not an easy language for non-Cantonese people to learn. Is it because her parents are Cantonese speakers? Badagnani 04:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fansites

I thought for certain that there was some guideline or policy specifically against including fansites in the "External links" section, but I couldn't find any. I left a note at the Talk page of Wikipedia:External links to ask if anybody can point to any relevant guideline or policy, or if fansites are actually allowed.[4] Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 15:41, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I've replied there - more contributions welcome. The discussion there is instructive. - Fayenatic (talk) 19:34, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Alot of these sites were used as references to the content in this article. As to what was used for what I don't know, but I'm pretty sure someone posted those particular details before somewhere. Jason Gervais 21:17, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Alas, I fear not. Anyway, here's an updated link to the archived discussion on the External Links talk page. - Fayenatic (talk) 20:10, 7 January 2008 (UTC)