Talk:Fathom
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[edit] etymology
Article stated that fæthm meant bosom. I found two sources saying it meant outstretched arms so I changed this. Oska 11:30, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)
- I don't know whether this was one of them but if not, then it's another. Jimp 2Nov05
- In the singular it was indeed bosom. It's the plural that meant outstretched arms and has come down to us as the measurement. Old Moonraker 15:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- The Old English word can be translated in various ways, e.g. bosom, outstretched arms, embrace, grasp, protection, expanse, abyss. In each case, the sense may be literal or figurative or somewhere in between, depending on the context:
- In the singular it was indeed bosom. It's the plural that meant outstretched arms and has come down to us as the measurement. Old Moonraker 15:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- (Note: The letters þ and ð were used interchangeably by Old English scribes for the dental fricative sounds which we represent with th in Modern English.)
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- The OED does indeed claim a distinction in Old English between sg. bosom and pl. the embracing arms. But both examples it cites of the latter sense refer to the outstretched arms of more than one person. The entry in Bosworth & Toller, at the link above, cites examples of both singular and plural with the sense embrace (sg. on fremdes fæðm, pl. of brimes fæðmum), as well as examples of both singular and plural under the sense lap, bosom, breast (sg. on bates fæðm, pl. to fæder fæðmum). But in some cases, especially where the meaning is figurative, this distinction between bosom or embrace may be more or less arbitrary, or at least open to interpretation. As a measure of length, the Old English Corpus Glossary (c. 800) glosses Latin passus as sg. faeðm. This is cited by the OED under the sense "The length covered by the outstretched arms, including the hands to the tip of the longest finger; hence, a definite measure of 6 feet."
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- Even if the OED is correct, it would be misleading to say that the name derives from the Old English word fæthm (plural) meaning 'outstretched arms' , since fæðm is grammatically singular.
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-- Dependent Variable.
[edit] Why is depth measured in fathoms?
As an English man born in England in 1954 and brought up in England, I have been aware since Primary School that depths of water were measured in fathoms. However no-one has ever told me why this should be; why do we measure depth in fathoms?
In those pre-metrication days length and distance were generically expressed in combinations of inches, feet, yards and miles. Horse races were measured in furlongs, but that was about the only unusual measure in use ...apart from the fathom. It struck me as perverse that fathoms should still be in common use. There must have been a important reason.
The (to me) obvious answer occurred to me a few years ago after mowing my back lawn. As I coiled the mower cable I realised I was forming each loop of the coil from the length of cable between my two outstretched arms – my personal ‘’fathom’’. I was also aware how easy this coiling action was. I’m not particularly fit, but my left hand, (holding the growing coil) swung easily back and forward like a pendulum, balancing the action of my right hand. As my left hand stretched out, it pulled the next length of cable through my right hand (“measuring” the “fathom”) and as my two hands came together I made another coil. How long is my cable? Easy! Count the coils; it’s that many fathoms! How long is a rope stowed aboard ship? Count the coils; it’s that many fathoms!
This, to me, seems an obvious explanation of why a fathom is a measure of length corresponding to the outstretched arms (see wiktionary), rather than being an mere defintion, but I’ve never heard anyone give it as a reason and I've never come across it in any book, not that I have looked too hard! Does any Wikipedian know of an authority for this idea other than me in my back garden?
Further thoughts:
- If I am correct, the determining factor for using fathoms as a unit of measurement is not that you’re at sea but that you are using rope. Have fathoms been used anywhere other than at sea because people were measuring with coils of rope? The article says fathoms were used in Cornish mines – is this the reason?
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- Not just in Cornwall. It was used throughout the UK. See Scottish example at http://www.mining-villages.co.uk/252.html. --ML5 14:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Found a link for "throughout UK" and added it to ML5's correction — thanks for putting me right! --Old Moonraker 15:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
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- The article list units of similar length from other cultures. I wonder if any of those relate closely to coiling rope?
- This also seems to tie in with the “encircling”, “embracing” meaning of fathom (see wiktionary again). It seems very reasonable for a circular loop of rope formed this way to be called, effectively, “an embrace” of rope.
Brother Francis 12:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- It's an interesting theory, but unfortunately, without an authoritative cite, it is mere speculation, and shouldn't be in this article. Rhialto 13:40, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
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- I agree and so I hope there is someone out there who is able to cite a reference. In time, because that's how some coils of rope are (there's nothing speculative about the way I coil my mower cable!), I would consider proposing text that addresed the matter for this discussion to consider ... but before I do that I hope for a citation. Brother Francis 23:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- It's because depths were originally measured using a lead sinker attached to a line. The lead was dropped over the side of the ship and allowed to bottom. The line was then hauled-in manually using the distance between the outstretched arms as a measure and the number of 'arms'-used counted. This gave the depth in measures of approximately six feet. When the person doing the sounding was lax or lazy he wouldn't wait for the sinker to bottom and would haul-in prematurely giving inaccurate readings - hence the term swinging the lead. Ian Dunster (talk) 10:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ian Dunster's suggestion, of measuring rope as it's hauled in by counting the number of "arms", is highly persuasive: does anybody have a WP:SOURCE so it can be put in? --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:25, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- It's because depths were originally measured using a lead sinker attached to a line. The lead was dropped over the side of the ship and allowed to bottom. The line was then hauled-in manually using the distance between the outstretched arms as a measure and the number of 'arms'-used counted. This gave the depth in measures of approximately six feet. When the person doing the sounding was lax or lazy he wouldn't wait for the sinker to bottom and would haul-in prematurely giving inaccurate readings - hence the term swinging the lead. Ian Dunster (talk) 10:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
- I agree and so I hope there is someone out there who is able to cite a reference. In time, because that's how some coils of rope are (there's nothing speculative about the way I coil my mower cable!), I would consider proposing text that addresed the matter for this discussion to consider ... but before I do that I hope for a citation. Brother Francis 23:22, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
- I included a description of this in the article back in 2004. It has been removed in the interim period. Oska (talk) 09:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Mines
I can't think of a better wording right now, or I'd fix it. But reading this article, mainly about a maritime measurement, on being told that it was used for the depth of mines, I naturally assumed the military kind of mine. It was only when, out of curiosity, I followed the link, that I found it concerned mineral extraction! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.202.205 (talk) 03:01, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
- Ouch—good catch! Now fixed, using your terminology. Thanks. --Old Moonraker (talk) 22:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
