Talk:Far right/Archive 1

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Notorious POV

While some apply the term to fascists and neo-Nazis, those groups share as much with the left wing as they do with the right. Sometimes the term "far right" is used pejoratively by those on the left wing to describe any view they perceive as hostile to socialism.

I can't begin to describe what is wrong with the neutrality of this sentence. Rather than get involved in a pointless edit war with notorious edit warrior Sam spade I've marked this page under dispute and let someone else fight it out. --Axon 17:34, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A wise thing to do. It surely isn't NPOV anymore. Djadek 18:43, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't know where your coming from, but facism surely isnt right wing, and your edits to this page surely arn't NPOV. Sam [Spade] 21:25, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I really don't see the point of this line of argument: perhaps you would also like argue that black is white, poor is rich and war is peace. I rather thnk you do know "where I'm coming from": Facism is, by definition, a right-wing movement, is commonly held to be as such by a vast majority of people and arguments against it are generally along weak and easy-to-dismiss lines such as "National Socialism has the word Socialism in it". I would bother to discuss this with you, Sam, but judging from your rather unpleasant habit of auto-reverting any edits you dislike, I think discussion would largely be a waste of time.
I would actually suggest this page be deleted altogether and a redirect created: the content more properly belongs in the Right wing page where it can be watched more carefully and this page can only ever be a magnet for the more extreme political elements to vent their spleens. --Axon 10:29, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree with that. Why would "far right" be a separate article from "right"? That's like having separate articles for "coal mines" and "deep coal mines". The only purpose of this article is to give people something else to argue over. -- Bblackmoor 00:11, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Your lack of interest in discourse is telling. Sam [Spade] 13:54, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Fascism and Nazism are most clearly right-wing (and extremely right-wing at that) by all accepted definitions of the Right and Left in politics. You can only exclude fascism from the right-wing if you re-define the "right-wing" to suit your own agenda.
Just so there can be no confusion, let me remind you what the key values of the right-wing are:
  • Tradition and "family values" - clearly upheld by the Nazis (the perfect German mother, as embodied by Magda Goebbels; the patriarchal German family; traditional Germanic culture, etc. etc.)
  • Hierarchy and obedience to authority - again, clearly upheld by the Nazis (see Fuhrerprinzip)
  • Patriotism/Nationalism/love for one's country - "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles..."
  • And last but not least, private property - see Hitler's pro-business policies
-- Mihnea Tudoreanu 14:11, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
For whatever it might be worth, "Deutschland über alles..." is not about the primacy of Germany over other nations, but as a rallying cry for Germans to put aside their internmecine differences and band together as Germans, rather than as Prussians, etc. This is pretty obvious if you pay attention to the lyrics (and understand German). It was written at a time when Germany was one of the last nation-states in Europe which still operated more as a collection of principalities than as a unified state. It's actually unfortunate that the "Deutschland über alles..." movement was succesful: it undermined Germany's role as a buffer state between other countries, and made them appear more threatening to their neighbors (who were already pretty twitchy). -- Bblackmoor 17:10, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I am fully aware of this, but I was referring to the Nazi use of the song. At any rate, I don't think there is any dispute over the extreme nationalism of the Nazis. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 12:34, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As for fascists vs. socialists vs. "far right", if you go far enough to the right you reach the far left: they both hit "totalitarianism" if you go far enough. "Left" vs. "right" is a false dichotomy, anyway: the real political spectrum is from "libertarian" to "totalitarian". -- Bblackmoor 17:10, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why do some libertarians insist that our current simplistic and biased political spectrum should be replaced with their simplistic and biased political spectrum? "The real dichotomy is not between left and right, it's between libertarian and totalitarian, because we want to portray ourselves as the good guys and make our enemies look 'bad' by association with totalitarian governments". Those sort of tactics are disgustingly hypocritical. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 12:34, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
How charmimg. Of course "libertarian vs. totalitarian" is simplistic. "Luminance", "contrast", and "hue" are all simplistic, as well. It's only one axis. The difference from "left vs. right" is that "left vs. right" doesn't measure anything objectively -- it's a mish-mash of unrelated concepts that just happen to be clumped together at a certain place and time. It's like putting potatoes and forks in the same category call "plateness", and putting spoons and crackers in a category called "bowliness". It's a completelty self-referential taxonomy. -- Bblackmoor 00:11, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
True. But when did I ever voice my support for the "left vs. right" axis? I completely agree with you that it's simplistic and misleading. Any one-axis model is simplistic and misleading. And why is that? Because the political spectrum consists of three major opposing tendencies, not two. Therefore, any one-axis model will privilege two of those tendencies at the expense of the third, or it will privilege one of those tendencies by squashing the other two together into the opposite end. The three tendencies I'm talking about are the Conservative Domain, the Liberal Domain and the Socialist Domain. Each of these "domains" is built around one core concept. The core concept of the Conservative Domain is hierarchy. The core concept of the Liberal Domain is property. And the core concept of the Socialist Domain is equality. Each domain has an "extreme", which seeks to take the core concept of that respective domain as far as possible and destroy the core concepts of the other two domains. If you look at things this way, the differences between fascists (extreme conservative domain), libertarians (extreme liberal domain) and communists (extreme socialist domain) become clear. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 12:50, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Besides, "totalitarianism" itself is a false category. Totalitarianism only means that the state has absolute power. But what does the state do with that power? The answer to this question outlines the immense differences between all the very different kinds of "totalitarianism". -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 12:34, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What does the state do with that power? Historically, it kills its citizens in rather large numbers. Anything else is kind of beside the point. -- Bblackmoor 00:13, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Typical libertarian garbage. You willingly impose a simplistic (not to mention warped and flawed) vision of the world onto yourselves, for fear that an honest look at complex reality would shatter your ideology. First of all, historically speaking, the number of people killed by the state is very, very small. Of all the people who died in the 20th century, only 3-5% were killed either directly or indirectly by that state. And most of those died in the two World Wars. If you take out wars and indirect causes (i.e. people who weren't killed directly by the state, but by some thing that the state could have prevented), the percentage plummets below 1%. That's nothing compared to the number of people whose lives were saved, lengthened or improved by the state. Hell, just by eradicating a disease like malaria inside a single country's borders, a single state could save more lives than all the states in all of human history ever took away.
But besides that point, the notion that "all states are the same no matter what they do" is utterly idiotic. A state that funds the military is not the same as a state that funds hospitals and schools. And even among totalitarian states, one that imposes a certain religion on its citizens is not the same as one that imposes atheism. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 13:02, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

.....................

The PUBLIC PERCEPTION of Fascism as Far Right is not at issue in the article as currently written. The public perception can be right or wrong. Presumably, an encyclopedia exists to do more than catalog any mistaken idea that is commonly held by the uninformed. There is in the article only the observation, certainly true, that the movement is not simply more conservative than conservatism. Fascism and Naziism are not, for instance, Monarchism, and they are anything but conventional when it comes to religious matters, yet no one is disputing the mention of religious traditionalists or fundamentalists as properly belonging to the category!

Fascism and Nazism may not be Monarchism, but, with a few exceptions, they support exactly the same policies you would expect from a reactionary monarchist. Hitler did not declare himself king, but he was a de facto absolute monarch. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 14:11, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Fascism DOES indeed incorporate revolutionary and social themes historically derived from the Left and did or does see the traditional Right as one of its enemies (along with those on the Left). Anyone who hasn't studied Fascism enough to know this needs to study the governmental policies and philosophy of Fascism more closely.

Stalinism also DOES indeed incorporate reactionary and social themes historically derived from the Right, and it sees the traditional Left as one of its enemies (along with those on the Right). To be more exact, many stalinist leaders adopted social policies close to what you might expect from an American conservative: Restrictions on abortion, a complete lack of rights for homosexuals, nationalist fervor, etc. (see North Korea as the best example of social conservatism on the part of a stalinist regime). In addition, stalinists are notorious for hating and attacking left-wing movements such as social democracy, socialism and all communists who don't agree with them.
Given those similarities between Stalinism and right-wing politics, would you conclude that Stalinism is part of the political Right? -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 14:11, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It might also be noted that Axon objects to and wanted the removal of the sentence that makes the observation that some on the Right consider the term (Far Right) to be perjorative. This sentence is, however, virtually an exact copy of a sentence on the Far Left page, but with the terms reversed. How can parallel descriptions and language for the opposite ends of the political spectrum NOT be neutral?

I second all of that, naturally. Sam [Spade] 13:54, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
The reason I deleted those sentances is very simple: it is patently obvious that they express as fact that which is actually opinion.
The commonly held view (not just public opinion, but held in general by most political thinkers as well as the average man on the street) is that Facism, and by extension the Nazis, is a right-wing movement. Opinions that Facism is a left-wing movement are certainly held by some groups and individuals, most notably in America, but are certainly a minority view. This is not detailed anywhere in your edits and in fact they give the (false) impression that this view is not only the common one, but is actually self-evident, undisputed fact.
Finally, bias on one page is not really an excuse for bias on another page. Otherwise, we might as well just turn Wikipedia into one big war zone and see who can fight it out by editing the fastest and most.
Also, it is considered good manners to sign your edits. --Axon 15:23, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)
He's an anon. Sam [Spade] 17:16, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I took a stab at NPOVing it, but I figured that it would be premature to peel the NPOV tag off of it before you guys had a look. I think it's important to note in this debate that none of these left-right definitions are established in a vacuum; the twentieth century saw stark changes in the meaning of these constructions.

Hence, the disagreement. Adam Faanes 09:09, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I tried my own overhaul, after refuting below some of the communist / far-left comments above. Sam [Spade] 21:06, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Response

Dr. Goebbels said, "Germany is a republican Fuhrer-state". He also said, "Besides, I pay homage to the French Revolution for all the possiblities fo life and development that it brought the people. In that sense one could say, if you like, that I am a democrat."

Meanwhile, Hitler said "1789 is undone" upon taking power - referring to his intention to erase the effects of the French Revolution from history (particularly democracy, Hitler's hated enemy).

Nazism is called the "Brown Creed". (brown refering to the brownshirt SA, the working class)

The SA was the (first) Nazi paramilitary organization, not the "working class". It is true that most of their members were working-class, which is precisely why Hitler purged them during the Night of the Long Knives. They were useful in his rise to power, but he got rid of them as soon as they had outlived their usefulness.

Hitler said, the Third Reich was a "people's republic"; (eine volkische Republik).

Hitler also said "We stand for the maintenance of private property... We shall protect free enterprise as the most expedient, or rather the sole possible economic order."

Hitler said, "I am not only the conqueror but also the executor of Marxism--of that part that is essential and justified, stripped of its Jewish Talmudic dogma.". He also said, "This revolution of ours is the exact counterpart of the French Revolution."

I suppose the first quote is the only one among the thousand of so Hitler quotes about Marxism that doesn't portray Marxism as an entirely vile Jewish conspiracy responsible for all the evils of the world, isn't it? As for the second quote, it says "counterpart" as in "mirror image", or "opposite".

And while we're at it, how about the dozen or so Hitler quotes saying he was a Christian, and the other dozen or so Hitler quotes saying Christianity was an evil Jewish plot to weaken the Aryan race? There's a Nazi quote for almost any occassion, and the Nazis contradicted their own previous statements hundreds of times. Clearly, Nazi propaganda is not a good source of any coherent political views. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 13:24, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

National Labour Law of January 20, 1934

[1] "National Labour Law of January 20, 1934, the state would exert direct influence and control over all business employing more than twenty persons. In other words, both employers and employees were put under the control of the government." Large public works projects, 100% employment, these sorts of things are socialist. Sam [Spade] 18:07, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh, so Ancient Egypt was socialist? Those pyramids were pretty big public works, after all...
Let me make one thing clear: Government intervention in the economy is a feature of (most forms of) socialism, but it is by no means the sole domain of the socialists. Governments have been funding public works for 5000 years, millenia before even the earliest roots of socialism began appearing. The heart of socialism is the idea of EQUALITY. Not public works, not full employment, not anything related to the government. These are all details, secondary features that weren't even originally invented by socialists. At the center of anything socialist lies the principle of Equality. Without this principle, there can be no socialism. Those who try to separate humanity into "superior" and "inferior" people - or "superior" and "inferior" races - strike against the very heart of everything socialists hold dear. Think about it for a moment: What unites the greatest enemies of socialism? What do libertarians and fascists have in common? Where do Ayn Rand and Adolf Hitler agree? On the principle of Inequality. Whether through the State or through the Market, the anti-socialist attempts to impose inequality and hierarchy. And those are the things that socialists despise above all others.
But the Nazis were anti-socialist through much more than just their hierarchal ideology. For example, the National Labour Law which you've just quoted enforced the following measures:
  • all labour unions were abolished.
  • employees were forbidden to strike.
You can't get much more anti-socialist than that. The Nazi model of economy-state relations was corporatist, not socialist. The state intervened in the economy, but it did so on behalf of business, not on behalf of the workers. This is the antithesis of socialism.
Besides, Nazi interventions in the economy did not go any further than the interventions of most other national governments starting in the 1930's, including those of the Allies. So if these policies were enough to make Nazi Germany "socialist", then, by the same token, you're living in a "socialist" country right now.
Overall, you seem to be using "socialism" as a label for "anything that isn't pure laissez-faire capitalism", which is where your confusion comes from. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 13:06, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Socialist states always ban labour unions and strikes. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 13:56, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
And which "socialist states" would those be, exactly? If you're referring to the Soviet Union & its clones, then the fact that they banned labour unions and strikes is an argument in favour of the view that they were not socialist states of any sort. After all, "socialists" banning unions are a bit like "capitalists" banning private property. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:00, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If we were to accept certain Socialist propoganda's, perhaps. Thank God I don't. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 16:05, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Funny. I was under the impression that "accepting certain Socialist propoganda's" is exactly what you are doing - since you insist that the claims of certain self-proclaimed "socialists" (like Stalin, for example) about their political views must be taken at face value and upheld without question. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 16:30, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Political compass

politicalcompass puts Hitler as a centrist authoritarian, Stalin as a far left one. Most political spectrums place Communism and Facism together as Totalitarianism. I think its important to note that while Communism has nothing in common with family values, Nazism certainly has no monopoly on it, Libertarians tend to enjoy family values at least as much as anyone. Sam [Spade] 18:07, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Political Compass puts Hitler as a slightly right-wing extreme authoritarian, and the Political Compass FAQ explains why Hitler IS, beyond the shadow of a doubt, a right-winger. -- Mihnea Tudoreanu 13:06, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Classification

Respectfully, I don't think that it is possible to justify the classification of Hitler left or right based on anything he said. That might sound counter-intuitive since we're describing Hitler, but the term "far-right" has no authoritative and final definition outside what the public deems it to be. The originators of the term are dead a century and a half, and their definition is clearly unsuited to the modern sense; as the far right cannot in any fair way be called universally monarchist today. It is not a question of historical or scientific veracity; it is a question of veracity in the public eye.
What was done on the left-right politics page was to list a series of statements that people classify ideologies left and right based on. I find this to be well-suited to this article as well; it is the only way we can capture what meaning there is in a pure social construct. I will agree with you that certain modern fractures of the far right have little to nothing in common with certain other fractures of the far right, just as many anarchists, Greens, and communists have sharp disagreements on the far left. The best we can do in an article such as this is to explain what the general belief of "far right" is, explain the controversies surrounding that definition, and admit the fundamental contradiction. Adam Faanes 08:12, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I agree w most of that. I want to stress that while the words of certain groups or individuals (in this case Hitler and Nazi's) may be dismissed as propoganda, the actions (such as the National Labour Law of January 20, 1934) should not be. Also, we must give proper attention to the concept that the far left and far right have a great deal in common, both seeming to have a tendancy towards Totalitarianism, revoloution, and anarchism (at different times, in different ways, and for different reasons, of course). A far right libertarian extremist who hates all taxes and govt. intervention, practices combat maneuvers with his militia buddies in preperation for "WTSHTF" (civil war) etc... is not so far off from an anarchist ideologically, as well as theoretically in practice (altho lefty activists tend to do a bit less in the way of gun trafficing ;). Similarly, a far left or far right dictator often has a fairly similar social program. And of course all extremists currently out of power favor revoloution, it seems a given. Sam [Spade] 14:11, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Notorious POV Strikes Again

Sometimes those on the Far-Right are said to be "Reactionary", but this is largely a perjorative from the left, and indicative of their adversarial relationship more than any particular platform or ideology on the Right.

Again, stating what is opinion as undisputed fact. This is self-evidently POV and does nothing to further the neutrality of this article, and seems only to provoke.

Many are of the opinion that the both political extremes have a great deal in common, or are perhaps even identical (i.e. tending towards either Totalitarianism, revoloution and / or Anarchism, or perhaps one after the other in alternation)

This is weasel words - rather than attempt to pass off partisan opinion as general, public opinion this article must state who holds such opinions, preferably with referenced, reputable sources to back up your claims. Who holds such opinions? Do they form a substantial majority? Is there evidence of this? --Axon 16:08, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I find it amusing that you ignore all the above debate and citations, and focus instead upon this new complaint, but I will attempt to address your concerns. Sam [Spade] 16:55, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/587544/posts] [2]

You have yet to actually address my questions directly to substantiate these edits. Your attempts to draw me into a pointless discussion serves no purpose. Others have adequately responded, and I'm sure will continue to do so. My problem with the above edits is that they are blatant POV. No amount of linkage to other right-wing forums can alter this. --Axon 17:26, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Those links are not to forums. I have substantiated. You have postulated. I refuse to be frustrated. In the future, I will ignore you as obstructionist. Sam [Spade] 17:40, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As you wish. --Axon 18:06, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Your attempts to draw me into a pointless discussion serves no purpose. ... My problem with the above edits is that they are blatant POV." Pot, meet Kettle. Kettle, meet Pot. You guys crack me up. -- Bblackmoor 00:24, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Whatever it is you are talking about, please get over it. --Axon 09:58, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What I am talking about is you and Sam Spade, having a tug-of-war over who can more stubbornly impose his own POV on this article. -- Bblackmoor 18:51, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My POV?

I find the above suggestion that I have attempted to place my POV in this article ludicrous. My POV is that the left right dicotomoy is a false one, and that the terms as traditionally used have no value. Anyone interested in my POV can review User:Sam Spade/Theoretical Biases. Cheers, Sam [Spade] 12:31, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Laissez-faire capitalism

Laissez-faire capitalism may be referred to as "far right"? That's absurd. Both "right" and "left" politics are strongly in favor of government intervention in the economy (the left imposes forcible redistribution of wealth, while the right favors back-door deals that favor certain industries). "Laissez-faire capitalism" isn't even on that spectrum. -- Bblackmoor 04:20, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But some accuse it of being so, and even more important, it is part of the debate about what this term means. Most political spectrums put Laissez-faire capitalism on the far right. Sam [Spade] 12:11, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"...some accuse it of being so..." Not meaningfully -- this use of "far right" has as much substance as calling supporters of gender equality "Nazi's": it is strictly pejorative, and has nothing to do with the actual meaning of the word "Nazi". The pejorative use of "far right" is covered in an earlier paragraph, and lumping in "laissez-faire capitalism" (or free speech, or freedom of religion, or any other unrelated political ideology) with various flavors of totalitarianism serves only to obscure whatever meaning "far right" might actually have. "Laissez-faire capitalism" is anathema to both "left" and "right", and is diametrically opposed to fascism, communism, etc.
You seem unfamiliar w the political spectrum. Please read the article on it. [[User:Sam Spade|Vote Sam Spade for Arbiter!]] 21:20, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
There is no "the" political spectrum: if you were familiar with the field (or if you had read the Wikipedia entry to which you hyperlinked), you would know that there are quite a few political spectra, and "laissez-faire capitalism" does not fall on the left-right spectrum. -- Bblackmoor 23:16, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Whether the government's involvement with the economy should be interventionist (left) or laissez-faire (right). Note that certain right-wing governments have engaged in interventionist policies (see dirigisme)."

Quoted from political spectrum.

[[User:Sam Spade|Vote Sam Spade for Arbiter!]] 21:26, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

All right-wing governments have strongly interventionist economic policies. All of them. And the more "right wing" they are, the more intervention there is. That some on the "left" call something "right" does not mean that it is so. It's like a dog calling a giraffe "cat-like" (i.e., "if it's not a dog, it must be a cat"). Wikipedia entries should exist to clarify and enlighten, not to perpetuate misunderstandings based on ignorance. Incidentally, the text quoted in the comments in your recent edits had already been removed from the article (by me). Therefore, I assume that you were viewing an outdated or cached version of this article when you edited it, so I am restoring it to its previous state. -- Bblackmoor 23:16, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)
That is ridiculous. And you accused me or enforcing my POV? I'll let you fight about this with someone else, its not worth my energy. [[User:Sam Spade|Vote Sam Spade for Arbiter!]] 23:23, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Laissez-faire capitalism removes all *government* intervention in the economy (all intervention by elected, accountable representatives of the people) leaving the rich free to do as they will. Laissez-faire capitalism is far-right because it leads to plutocracy.

No, people who identify themselves as "left" fear that it would lead to a plutocracy, which is why they incorrectly refer to it as "right". It is a perjorative based on ignorance. "If a giraffe is not a dog, it must be a cat." The cats feel exactly the same way. That doesn't make a giraffe a dog, either. -- Bblackmoor 23:48, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, people on the left fear that laissez-faire capitalism would lead to plutocracy, in the same way they fear that standing in front of a speeding train would lead to death. I'm sure there are laissez-faire capitalists who believe the endearing fantasy that it might lead to something other than plutocracy, but I don't think Wikipedia articles should be based on the discredited theories of the destructively naive.

Feel free to discuss that over in the article devoted to laissez-faire capitalism. What is relevant for this article is that "right-wing" political ideology is (like "left-wing" ideology) directly opposed to laissez-faire capitalism. -- Bblackmoor 00:28, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That isn't the case at all. Laissez-faire capitalism is one right-wing ideology. It may well be opposed to other right-wing ideologies but there are opposing views within the left as well. Most current right-wing politicians support laissez-faire capitalism.

Left vrs. Right extremists

  • Left tends towards internationalism (in theory), the right towards nationalism
  • Left tends towards Atheism, the Right towards traditionalism
  • Left tends towards Radical egalitarianism (in theory), the Right towards hierarchy
  • Left tends towards expansionism, the right towards imperialism

These are a few pointers I think we might be able to agree on. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 14:40, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)