Talk:Fancy pigeon

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Sirs, or to whom it may concern, The description of a Birmingham Roller pigeon is in error. It cannot be compared to the feral pigeon. It is a member of the Tumbler family, which are many in variety. They are bred to spin backwards in a form and speed that brings them down by gravity to distances of five to forty five feet, whereupon they break from the spin and come back to a formed kit and repeat the maneuver. This member of the Tumbler family was developed in the Orient many centuries ago and brought to Birmingham England and the spinning aspect was perfected. They have been described as the Black County Roller also, having been developed by the miners of that district of england. A national organization known as the National Birmingham Roller Club might be interesting to check up with to get a better education about this breed. They are indeed a most fascinating bird. rfcallahan@comcast.net

I'm sorry--what reference to Birmingham Rollers?--Onorio (talk) 00:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

The comment was from November 2006. I think he is long gone?--Sting au Buzz Me... 10:56, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Duh. I should have checked the history. I don't know why I bothered to reply anyway. Some sort of compulsion to ask, I guess. --Onorio (talk) 11:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry I've done it myself and was wondering why no reply? Lots of old messages on talk pages on wikipedia. More people getting on here now though which is good. Oh, the edits you were talking about. Just go do stuff (be bold) if there is anything other editors (me or anyone) wants changed they will ;-)--Sting au Buzz Me... 11:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Modenas as homer-type pigeons

May I suggest that we might want to add another category to the list in the article: thieving pigeons. This would include flying flights and domestic show flights (in the US), all the various thief pouters and Modenas as well. I believe I follow the logic of putting Modenas under Homer-type pigeons but since thieving has been such an integral part of pigeon keeping for such a long time maybe it would make sense to create a separate category and possibly it would be a better fit for Modenas? Just a thought. I know I could go ahead and make the edit myself but I thought it might be worth while (and potentially save work undoing things) to discuss it first.--Onorio (talk) 15:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes I'm open to another category. I'm cross referencing with the Australian Standards book (which I need to ref on article page) and The European (or actually German) system. Modenas in Europe come under Huhntauben which covers both German Modenas and USA/UK/Aust type. The Australian classification rolls "Hen" pigeons and Homer pigeons in together. The actual grouping is listed as "Homer and Hen Pigeons", so I might change the article to read as that? Spanish pouters are a tricky one? I'm thinking they might be better in a sporting pigeon group? But from what I see in my research they come under Pouters & Croppers and Kropftauben respectively. At least the Marchenero comes under that heading. A lot of the classification I see I don't completely agree with. I think at least German Modenas would be better under Color Pigeons, but plenty of fanciers would disagree with that. I'll look into this further and get back to you. I'm a bit pressed for time at the moment.--Sting Buzz Me... 01:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Back again. No Modenas belong with the "Homer and Hen Pigeons", I'll change the group name to suit as I can reference this. I just haven't got around to doing the references yet. Another thing with the groupings I see that the American Giant Homer is supposed to go in with the Hen/Homer pigeons? I would have thought they would be a Utility breed? I'm also going to add Thuringen Field Pigeon to the Color Pigeon group. I also need to create a South German Field Pigeon article but still need to upload some pictures. Oh, nearly forgot to say that Thief Pouters belong in Pouter & Cropper grouping. The Flying/Sporting Pigeons group may need to be changed as I can't find a reference for that naming. I can find "Flying Tumblers and High Flying Pigeons" though.--Sting Buzz Me... 01:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, homer and hen pigeons makes a bit more sense to me. I didn't realize that you were using the Australian Standards Book. I guess I missed seeing that in the article. I still find it a little strange that they group those two major groups together but maybe there's some logic there that I'm missing.

As far as I know, American Giant Homers are sort of a tri-purpose bird now. They were developed from racing homers, they were developed to be utility pigeons, and they are exhibited as show pigeons as well.

Yes, I can understand grouping Thief Pouters into Pouters and Croppers. The suggestion to add a "thieving" group came about because I didn't understand the source of the breed groups you were using.

Flying/Sporting is an American designation and that's fine if you want to change it. There's nothing any more or less correct about an American designation than an Australian or a European designation when you come right down to it. All of them are just groupings of breeds of pigeons anyway. I think it may make some sense to note that pigeon fanciers in different parts of the world group breeds differently but I think we already have a note to that effect somewhere.--Onorio (talk) 11:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is noted at the pigeon keeping article I think? I've covered that different grouping are used in this article. The groupings here are pretty close to what we need, but can tweak things around if needed. I believe the Americans should adopt a similar system through their NPA. Does the NPA have an up to date standards book out? I see they have a book titled, "Pigeons of North America in the 21st Century". Have you seen/read it? I was wondering if it was worth purchasing. It might make a great reference book we could use here?--Sting Buzz Me... 12:30, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe I heard something about some discussion of the NPA adopting the European groupings but I don't know if that ever got anywhere. As with any large organization, there's a lot of organizational inertia.

I've seen the "Pigeons of North America" book. I can't remember what I saw but I can remember thinking that it was ok but not something that I had to own. I suppose that's harsh and I know that a lot of work was put into it but it seems to me that I recall it basically rehashing a lot of the info from the Encyclopedia of Pigeon Breeds and the EPB did it better.--Onorio (talk) 19:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I suspect you'll want to edit that subsection I added to Homers and Hen Pigeons. I wish I could have come up with some better wording. I think the way it was structured may have possibly caused some confusion because Modenas aren't really homing pigeons and have never really been used for that purpose. They're hen pigeons in the European grouping and that's what I wanted to make clear by that addition. But if anyone else can figure out a better way to structure that, feel free. I also added the explanatory note regarding the name "Hen Pigeons". I do have a reference for that from a European fancier and I can add it if it seems necessary.--Onorio (talk) 20:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

What do you mean Modenas never having been used as homers? Have you ever read The Pigeon by Levi? "This race was raised in the city of Modena not for show or squab raising purposes, but for the flying sport called Triganieri, which was carried out by its breeders. This sport, to put it briefly, was to send up a kit for flight and, when birds from another loft joined the kit, to signal them down to the home loft, taking all the strangers captive." That makes them very much an original homing variety. But no worries. "Hen" pigeon is fine by me. Unless someone else comes along and changes it? The groupings are mainly so we can better organize breed articles. I gather the eventual infobox will have a section to say what "grouping" the particular breed belongs to? And country of origin etc.--Sting Buzz Me... 11:35, 1 June 2008 (UTC)