User:Famekeeper
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Famekeeper had to return to Wikipedia to prevent personal attacks and investigation from getting out of hand , and is now User:EffK .
[edit] FK(nowPureSoupS or PS) asked his wd be corrector
FK posted
"I ask Str1977 : you say then categorically that you were not responsible for the edit of ip number 24.91.139.250 ?
"This mysterious editor operated wildly , and on 20 April at 09.36 removed the following I placed on this Pope Pius XII page :
"...
"This users total contributions to WP are here, and ended with one more after the above : [[1]]
"This was not you , Str , before you logged a name , then ? "Famekeeper 10:34, 5 September 2005 (UTC)"
Yes, I categorically say that I was not in any way responsible for that edit. My IP before logging on always began with 132...
I hope that satisfies your inquisitiveness.
PS. Please don't you again alter the structure of my talk page.(FK :Ouch! - Str1977: Forgiven.)
Str1977 13:38, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Open Short Summary
It appears that I am ordered to provide a spec. on the case and it to be as brief as possible .
WP-Minority view doesn't belong in WP regardless of whether it is true or not , or regardless of proof , and 'Majority viewpoint should be easy to substantiate from reference texts' . 'If only the favourable (or the unfair) facts of a point of view are shown , the article will still be neutral' WP- 'Un-biased characterisation of disputes'. 'Explanation which encompasses not only what motivates individuals who hold those beliefs and practices , but on account of how such beliefs and practices came into place' . WP- 'we might give those with morally repugnant beliefs insight that will change those views'. 'Fair characterisation describes but does not advocate ' . 'Belief is objective fact' . I 'describe or I imply , insinuate or subtly massage'.
[edit] FK Summary for McClenon 22 July 2005
sUMMARY :That this article obfuscates the deep and continuous historical comment concerning the Party action or inaction on March 23 1933 when Monsignor Ludwig Kaas a longtime close friend and associate , in vatican policy and direction on the European political plane , of Cardinal Pacelli , gave the suicide note for democracy . I refer to multiple historical sources ranging from the mere word condonation by the Party - to those calling Kaas one of the two most important actors in this death of suicide , by way of others calling it representative of a Pope-Hitler quid pro quo ( short-lived but crucially historic nevertheless ). I claim that the repeated rv of the associated section demonstrates a POV , whereas the section is NPOV as sourced . That this article needs to have true and un-inhibited reference to these conclusions from history since they are not interpretations but are relevant as history and that whilst they relate mostly to questions about the vatican influencing german catholicism and Kaas over the period , they are in fact necessary even on the level of simple Party history . In so far as Kaas acted within the party during the alleged or suspected or real arrangements of such influence during especially 1933 , reference to this must be allowed in full , in accordance with its importance . Quotes from Kaas concerning Adolf Hitler made at the end of his 5 year chairmanship must be allowed as relating to this tenureship and to his judgement of Hitler during this time . Timeline dating should be allowed as revealing the exact over-lapping nature of Kaas/vatican/Centre actions ; Kaas' friendship with Pacelli revealed ; and a full relation of the historians concerns that a quid pro quo existed , (despite Party internal differences), should allow for further expansion of the historical relationship between german Party catholicism with the vatican ; and the allegations and proofs as can be sourced , placed on/page . I herewith call for all of good will to help in this expansion , as they may be capable because of their access to sources . Meanwhile mediate .If it please you , I withdraw until called upon further , leaving here my contribution subject to reverts:-
"Controversy exists concerning the extent to which the 1928-1933 Chairman of the Centre party , Monsignor Ludwig Kaas , acceded himself to , and influenced the party towards , the reportedly expressed instructions of the papacy . This remains un-proven but Kaas is reported as having ,in May 1932, relayed the exhortation of Pope Pius XI, from a letter written by Cardinal Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli , for the Centre catholics to assist Hitler to power in every way necessary . This was allegedly required in order to counterract burgeoning german Communism . Approbation by this Pope for the appearance of Hitler as a strong counterracting force is on record during , and Kaas as a churchman acted beneath the papal orders throughout, the Enabling Act-Concordat negotiations . Monsignor Kaas' own approbation of Hitler is equally on record at this time . Certainly the self-serving actions of the party at the enabling Act vote on March 23, 1933 remain the subject of studied controversy , as it remains the epitome of democratic suicide . The mysterious Centre party vote for the two-thirds majority , enabled the legal ascent of Hitler to complete Dictatorship . The defection en masse of party members to Nazism coupled with a softening in the Hierarchical attitude to Hitlerism came along with pro-Hitler communications from the vatican . The historical allegation is that the Enabling act represented the quid pro quo for the (still in force) reichsconcordat " . Famekeeper 16:52, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Formal Request for Mediation I have posted a formal Request for Mediation concerning any neutrality and POV disputes about this page. Robert McClenon 17:18, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
I have several times asked Famekeeper for that summary, in particular with focus to facts that have been deleted, or on POV presented by sourced scholars as POV that has been deleted. I have not yet seen a summary of less than 500 words of what User:Famekeeper thinks is the substance of the censorship.Robert McClenon 02:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
from [[2]]
[edit] User Str1977 and User Famekeeper
I like you Str, because a battle is less boring that righteously bureaucratic farts. However you have given me the run-around too long . It is a waste of the resources all round. As far as my understanding has deepened during this battle, you are to be thanked for being the cause . Now , however , the intellectual denial of reason and sourced truth , so much your stock-in-trade, is un-bearable . I think you should be ashamed of yourself as a mind , because your bad faith is in complete contradiction with your avowed christianity . You have tried to sweetly patronise me to death many times, and you do not mend your ways , such as on the Reichskonkordat at present . You say you accept , now, the existence of the secret Annexe , but yet you even yesterday deny that it is relevant to the man who devised and drafted it,Ludwig Kaas , where you would at first deny , and then exclude it as irrelevant . This is but the latest example of a complete intellectual bad faith . There would seem to me to be no profit whatever anymore in stimulating this your intellectual bad faith . I am forced to preserve my time by abandoning all contributions to the WP , for you now to doubtless reverse and remove the secret annexe (placed by another editor in its Reichskonkordat article). You have throughoput my experience of you done nothing but damage or damage limitation to all associated articles, every one . I am shocked and amazed . I also appear to be alone . You share the mien of other users and you have tricked them into seeing you as benign , whereas in the very rarified field of my interests , no one is informed enough to come to my side. You have throughout capitalised on this one weaknes I have , and you have shown no quarter. Neither have I . But this cannot go on , either you accept the truth as sourced, or you are against the Wikipedia .Famekeeper 10:21, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Mr FK, if you value my input I am flattered.
However, mere disagreement with you is not "intellectual denial of reason and sourced truth". I have other things I might be ashamed of but that does not belong here. As for avowed christianity - the truth must be the basis for everything and this is were we had our dispute. Hence all further conclusions from them are wrongheaded (and indeed patronising). As for christianity - I am afraid I have to say that you haven't grasped it. You have dug into canon law (though jumped to conclusions from some things) but that christianity is not mere morals but "faith, hope and charity" I have at least not detected in your discourse.
As for the annex question: of course you could argue that anything about the concordat should be included in the Kaas article as he had a hand in it (though not he alone) but that means including the entire concordat article into Kaas. Encyclopediae don't work that way. This is why there are links. I never disputed that the secret annex belonged into the concordat article - I only countered your analysis which I see to be onesided. I will certainly not removed it from there and if someone else does will even restore it.
I have tricked no one into thinking me benign. Mere politeness is no trick. Concise statements are no tricks. Believe me, Robert agrees more with you that he agrees with me, but you have done everything you could to gain his antipathy. If this is the weakness you are referring to, you are right. I don't gloat over that. I'm even sorry about that. But that's the way it is.
I gave no quarter since I am defending the truth as I see it. You are doing the same but you don't have a monopoly on the truth. Str1977 08:53, 5 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Shortest History Summary Possible
My disgust is relieving me of strength to confront more strange behaviour in the usual articles, to do with the papal collaboration with Hitlereism during Weimar Germany . So I have by now potted the facts down to a few lines by way of truth-full micro-explanation:
-
-
- Illegal the assembly that passed the Enabling Act for Adolf Hitler (constitutional protection of deputies transgressed) , Illegal the Government of Adolf Hitler's Nazi Party contravention of section 2 of Enabling Act .Illegal the Government of Nazi Germany from 28 Febuary 1933 deputy detentions ( as found by the Nuremburg Trials, Illegal the Roman Catholic reichskonkordat per the versailles treaty , by internal catholic law illegal the popes Pius XI and XII subjects excommunicated at offence Illegal present continuance by present German Government of Vatican treaty .Guilty Contumacy charge against Holy See of 1933 proved by the existence of Secret Annexe : 'RESULT : WWII , HOLOCAUST Ends
-
[edit] Scholarly POV ?
I get quite upset at the way some editors seem to wish to deny sources that weight which they deserve . I believe this is against the main principle of Wikipedia , and I warned right at the beginning that I did not wish to have to sail close to the wind copyright -wise , but that I would not lightly do so . I have been forced to do so .
[edit] JWales Final Responsibility re:Auschwitz Testimony Against Pope Pius XII etc
[edit] Naive MPOV(mine)
I'm sorry Jimbo , but I see the responsibility to settle intractable disputes rests with you . I seem to run into intractable dispute on your WP , so I ask you to take responsibility . No one else can take this your place . I refer you to the articles Pope Pius XII and Hitler's Pope as the centre of this dispute and ask you to put yourself into the position of final arbiter now, OK ? I particularly think that the surviving Roman Jewess's words be taken as an issue : I wish you therefore to show or not show , that an Auschwitz survivor be called POV ( rv'd ,Pius in WWar 2) . You will see that the difference between the two articles at this minute is simple : one (PPII) is the 'censored' or whatever version of the other (H's P).
Having been battling to and beyond the brink for 8 months on the one article , I say that only you can survey this with any authority to do anything about it . Let you be the judge of all the WP requisites, knowing that your judgements are real , and that ultimately you yourself will equally be judged . Auschwitz survivors are definitely in a minority and this responsibility for arbitration I lay at you because you are the organ . I will consider myself in-active until you please let me know that I am required . As various users may find this disappearance odd , I post this letter to you for them to see elsewhere .
[edit] FK Aug 7 2005
FK has tried to repair Pius XII and Ludwig Kaas.
[edit] The vatican's Media Conference and the Wikipedia
Can I repeat my un-answered question? (New Media /Old Media -cleared out)
It was reported on Euronews this Spring , just prior to the death of Pope John Paul II , that a special conference was being held in the Vatican over the issue of new Media (ie the internet and presumably things like the Wikipedia . Film appeared from within the modern conference hall , there seemed to be about 150 people maximum in a hall capacity of about 600 . There were Cardinals , not many , in the front rows , noteable for their cummerbund colours around their waists . There were people in civvy clothes as well . This was their new modern confernce hall , showing their arrival into networked communication .
Euronews said that the conference was called by the Roman Catholic Church to study the new phenomenon of internet information dissemination . That the church was aware of negative information on the internet which could cause harm to the church and faith. That the church should being aware of these new tools, also see it as a positive opportunity for the faith . - Euronews quoted the conclusion reached at this conference-three days I think it lasted . It concluded that indeed there was an urgent need for Catholics of all places to enter into these new media channels to counterract all such malign influences , and for them to recognise and take active part themselves in this new media as catholics . This to the faithful , was by way of being an order for a concerted entry into cyberspace , and was presumably reported through catholic media organs at greater length than the 5 minute Euronews report . This was broadcast repeatedly several times daily for a week(they repeat info that way) .
I ask you again, in the fear that you may not have understood what I referred to , as the chief of a large media organ , if you are aware of this catholic conference's concluding instruction to the faithful ? Famekeeper 10:57, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
- I was not aware, and I can't imagine why I should care. I will gladly join with the Catholic Church and invite Catholics and people of every belief to get engaged with the Internet and New Media generally. I think that positive dialogue and discussion is a net value for everyone, and I am very pleased to hear that the Catholic Church is encouraging it.--Jimbo Wales 11:02, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
-
- The instruction however was to each of the faithful to personally involve themselves to the fullest to combat all encroachment on the teaching of the church . If it were positive we'd be delirious but rigidity and prevention are not at the cutting edge of positive dialogue . If Condoleeza Rice can have a Foreign Policy u-turn re :the Middle East (more democracy , less kings ), that's a positive . U-turns and recognition of the reality is positive , obedience to dogma ain't . Sino-japanese relations as of now require positive dialogue , but maybe you will be able to help (just an example ) . I can see your point . Anyway , you opened the door , and I say thanks .Famekeeper 21:14, 3 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Famekeeper Summaries:End of Weimar
From 6 November 1932 to 31 January 1933 the Nazis were a barely restrained minority outside of an Army Reichswehr General anchored Cabinet ruling under Decree(48) of the Weimar Constitution.
From January 4 Hitler and ex-Chancellor ,non-Party Franz von Papen planned themselves to replace this General Kurt von Schleicher led Cabinet .
Hitler learned from Papen that the General's rule did not possess the power to abolish the Reichstag parliament whereas any majority by seats did . The Cabinet as under previous decree 48 use, ruled without the Reichstag sitting, and the Reichstag was limited to only a vote for its own dissloution . Secondly , Hitler learned that all crippling past Nazi debts would be relieved by German Big Business .
On 22 January Hitler suborned through Blackmail the President's son , Oskar von Hindenburg (thru use of estate taxation irregularities at the President's Neudeck estate) . 5000 extra Acres were soon alloted to the Hindenburg estate .
By this means Papen and Hitler destroyed Schleicher who had asked for abolition and new elections . On 28 January Papen described Hitler to the President , Paul von Hindenburg as but a minority part of the alternative and resulting Papen arranged Government .
On 29 January Hitler and Papen fore-stalled a last minute threat of an official Reichswehr instituted takeover . On 30 January Hindenburg accepted the new Papen-Nationalist-Hitler co-alition with the Nazis holding only 3 of 11 Cabinet seats .
The 30 January 1933 first Cabinet meeting saw only two parties , themselves a minority in the Reichstag - the Nazis and the Alfred Hugenberg led DNVPNationalists (196 +52 seats). Eyeing the CatholicCentre Party Germany's 70 (+ 20 BVP seats , Hitler refused their leader's demands for constitutional "concessions" (protection) and planned for dissolution of the Reichstag .
Nationalist suggestion to balance majority thru further arrests was rejected by Hitler at the January 30th Cabinet , and the Cabinet Nationalist partners were assuaged with its' continuance after elections . Following Hitler's meeting with the Centre leader Monsignor Ludwig Kaas , fresh elections for 5 March were decided for by Hitler .
Hitler's naming as Chancellor on 31 January 1933 preceded during Febuary a concerted banning of Communist-left meetings and physical attacks upon even moderate Catholic Centre Party Figures. General quasi-legal proscription of Communism in early-mid Febuary included the illegal arrest of Reichstag Deputies .
The Nazi provocateur Reichstsg Fire of 27 Febuary gave Hitler pretext for Reichstag Fire Decree assent from the President , removing civil liberties .
Hitler and the Nazis were able to use State Broadcasting and aviation in a massive attempt at the electorate but this last democratic election produced a bare working majority of 16 seats for the co-alition . Hitler embodied to many disparate interests the necessity for a once and all solution to the perpetual Weimar Republic instability .
Hitler characterised the ills of Germany as emanating from the Communists ,threatening their very lives on 3 March . Centre ex-Chancellor Heinrich Bruning proclaimed the Centre Party would resist any constitutional change , and, insisting on investigation of the Reichstag Fire , appealed to the President .
Hitler at the first 15 March new Cabinet meeting saw obtention of the Enabling Act majority as cardinal and now possessed/ did not possess power to arrest democratic opposition Socialist SPD Deputies . The catholic Centre Party (Zentrumspartei) led by Dr. Kaas remained the question in the equation of a 2/3 majority vote constitutionally needed for the Act .
The Centre Party Priest Chairman since 1928, Ludwig Kaas whilst meeting Hitler in working committee from 15 March , also possessed strong non-political connection to the Secretary of State at the Vatican or Holy See . At the last internal Centre meeting prior to the Enabling Act , Kaas enounced no preference or suggestion as to the vote . He arranged for a letter of constitutional guarantee to be forthcoming from the Nazis prior to Centre support, as solution to his Party's division on the issue .
The 21 March ceremonial opening of the Reichstag was held in a building of overwhelming German historic significance , and Hitler further suborned the Presidency with a bow of respectful humility before the World and its' Press .
The sitting Reichstag convened on 23 March around which this time Hitler orchestrated the full menace of his street supporter paramilitaries .
Otto Wells the Social Democrat leader of 120 seats , alone rose to defend the last hope of democracy and deny support for the two-thirds majority , in a speech that referred to the soul and provoked the wrath of Hitler there and then .
The Communist's 81 seats were entirely vacant lowering the bar for the constitutional majority .
Inserted into his wrathful speech , Hitler delivered a well remembered 23 March reference to churches , hitherto the subject of his virulent attack . He paid tribute to the Christian faiths as 'essential elements for safeguarding the soul of the German people , promised to respect their rights , declared that his Government's 'ambition is a peaceful accord between Church and State , and with an eye to the votes of the Catholic Centre Party , which he received , 'that we hope to improve our friendly realtions with the Holy See' -Rise and Fall of the Third Reich ( Copyright) (William L. Shirer 1959 .
Monsignor Ludwig Kaas had not received the still feverishly promised but plainly absent letter of guarantee . That morning ex-Chancellor Bruning had condemned the planned assent to the Enabling Act as treachery . Now he was officially silent . Kaas at that same morning's Centre conference had presented the choice: between a preservation ' of our soul ' , or a division of the Party .
Following Hitler's speech Kaas delivered the Reichstag Centre vote en bloc for the Enabling Act . Authoritarian Dictatorship was born . All results from this moment were subject to analysis at the Nuremburg Trials .
Shirer writes of the several interested parties,- Hindenburg and his friends, the Junker and Monarchist Barons, Hugenberg and his business/Nationalists , the officers of the Weimar Reichswehr (Army) , the Big Business interests .
The Nuremburg Trials decided that in the case of the aristocratic catholic Franz von Papen and of the Rhenish-Westphalian Industrial Magnates , conspiracy to assist Adolf Hitler to power was not an indictable offence .
History leaves a question mark over the effects of a co-ordination with the Roman Catholic Church and its' desire for the July 20 Reichskonkordat .
The church has answered all slander against the secretary at State and later war-time Pope Pius XII with his nomination for Sainthood .
[edit] Back to WikiPedia:Rfc/Famekeeper page :-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Famekeeper#Response
[edit] Response to Rfc
This is a summary written by the user whose conduct is disputed, or by other users who think that the dispute is unjustified and that the above summary is biased or incomplete.
{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}
Today I remove all my counter accusation . The Rfc has served its purpose , for me . Famekeeper 16:14, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Users who endorse this summary (sign with ~~~~):
[edit] Famekeeper
If you come here ,I explain that I started as Flamekeeper . Out of date Macteetime software ate my cookie and now I have crept down through Fiamekeeper to this . I go on and on , here and there, as I get the time . I complain a lot when I'm feeling something ain't right . I try and keep my language away from insults but I'm human , just .
I have been involved here with thirties scandal . I came here because wikipedia is mirrored and the scandals seemed to be being hushed-up and mirrored all round the planet . I base myself on what I have read in books or articles but as you know there are always two sides to everything , or nearly always , or perhaps in just some things -there's a right and a wrong . I see no right or wrong in art or poetry , only feeling . Wrong seems to be what can hurt people , and wicked seems to be a complacent willingness to do so. I think we are all guilty at least once , like St. Peter .
It causes trouble but then that's why I came to WP, because I saw the trouble emanating from here . I am not alone in realising the propaganda potential of the wikipedia , it's great , you can really put it over , or try . My truth could be your propaganda or vice versa.
I am not from within any recognisable group -I was not caught by any colleges or societies or churches or even national identity . I can feel the joys of humour and poetry in english as it was the cradle coo-coo , I spent a lot of time in french arms and even their poetry , not their armies. And I enjoy the exaggeration and passion of spanish , but the test is, well I can dig the language of cervantes, but the tragic reflection of peninsular mentality , the over-whelming stupidity of Don Juan's nobility quickly sates my sympathy .
I am positively gratified to have been asked if I am in fact a german , by , apparently ,a german. I must say I don't feel that philosophically proficient . Now , reader , If you don't see me around , you might ask if I have been banned and why .... Check back with the scandals , and if all looks rosy, I'm banned .
Does it matter?... Well , as we wait for Yellowstone to blow, we have the time to catch up with what appear to be the messages from our past . Sadly, the oldest and most indecipherable message seems to be that yellowstone or something ,will blow . I guess all that matters is to do your own little but and suffer your own conscience . If I thought I was good , I wouldn't worry . Just, I heard that the most dangerous people , to other people, are the big ones for saying this is good , do this , itll be better : they cause the grief .
Just remember that the pessimist doesn't need to get angry , and only the optimist can get indignant . I get indignant , but I could be wrong . I tend to have a perversely clear view of evolution : things that challenge , cause evolution . We challenge ourselves, and without this , we'd atrophy . In contradiction I believe in the Vedantic / Essene /Thomas view, that the teaching of Jesus was that he and all of us are the children of god equally. But I'm a hypocrite , 'cause I don't treat my little bodily temple that well .
If you read this, you must love the WP, or something . I'm told it isn't a soapbox -so I'll have a whole bath of it ready for you . Your world will get there, we will become one with each other in our diverse humanity , and the next phase could take 300 years to approach this very agreement , if the last times of change are anything to go by . Or are you in a hurry , do you think the WP will speed it all up to 25 ?
