Talk:Falun Gong

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[edit] Plan to move from POV to GA

I'm back here for a little while. I've been having a bit of think about how to try and move this forward and about where I've been making making mistakes. One mistake I think has been trying to work on this piecemeal. It's not so much a matter of whether this article is biased for or against Falun Gong, it's also about the wider Wikipedia. I'll be open so that no-one feels I'm ambushing them. I think this entry is heavily biased in favour of Falun Gong - but that the wider context is biased against it. Even in the article while I think most of the bias is towards Falun Gong, there are bits which work against it and I can see that tackling the bias bit by bit would make the Falun Gong practitioners feel that they're in a battle, so naturally they'll defend their position.

I was going to try and write an NPOV compromise but I've given that up as a bad job too. If people here don't buy into the philosophy behind it then it could be the best article in the world and it would be hacked away from both sides. I can assure you it wouldn't be the best article in the world and I'd encourage correcting it, but then why write it in the first place when you all can do better? So this is a long post explaining notes in my sandbox.

[edit] Good Article status should be the goal

Well duh! Everyone agrees with that. I'm assuming no-one is deliberately making a bad article. Even if you are that anti-social there'd be better pages to vandalise. What I mean is that its better that the article gets GA status than perfectly reflecting your view. Perfection with so many people here will not happen. GA status could.

As an example right now all the points have counter-points and rebuttals from the Falun Gong believers. Critical points are edited and ameliorated. The result is not a Good Article. It's an NPOV banner. Wikipedia has a reputation for having colonies of nutters and someone reading the article and seeing the comprehensive put down of opposing views will get that opinion of Falun Gong. The average wikipedia reader is not stupid. Ok some are, but are these really the sort of people you want to win over? Neither side has to accept this plan, but if you don't come up with an alternative then both sides lose. The sceptics will not get their opinions read and Falun Gong will be discredited as long as the NPOV sign stays.

So here's a link to the draft in the sandbox and a description of what I think is important.

[edit] We possible we should abandon the pro and anti stance in the article

Start with a look at the links. I'll have to ask for some forbearance from Asdfg12345 because I'll use a couple of his edits as examples. One was that he felt that links should be balanced between pro and anti. This doesn't work. For the sake of argument let's assume James Randi was listed as a link. Now if he changes his mind about Falun Gong and decides its all positive what do we do? Kick him and another pro- link out to maintain balance? Surely if his expertise is noteworthy when he's anti- Falun Gong then it's still noteworthy if he changes his mind. I can see why Asdfg12345 is keen on balance. I agree with the aim but in practice it doesn't work and it only helps us think of the article as adversarial.

This came to me when I thought to put Epoch Times in. I think it's a relevant link for people wanting to find out about Falun Gong. Does that mean I have to get a token anti- link for NPOV? The way I'm looking at it is "Is the article better with the Epoch Times link in?" The answer is yes. It should go in.

What I have done is suggest Falun Dafa goes at the top of the list. If there's just one external link on the page it should be this one. The others go in alphabetical order. I know there's a lot of national Falun Dafa sites and I'm not saying they should all be included, but I think there are a few more Falun Gong sites which should be listed than are currently.

[edit] Lets not count exactly, but last words should be balanced

The other big issue is that the Falun Gong believers are very good at getting a last word on the end of anything critical. I can see why, without implying anything sinister. FG practioners are going to know their subject but again it's unworkable in the long term. If you are thinking one side versus the other then any right you're claiming for yourself has to also go to the opposition. We cannot have both Falun Gong practioners, skeptics and Chinese government supporters all having the last word on every article. This is somewhere where there'll have to be some give and take. I'll concede in some cases it does make obvious sense for one side to have the last word and I'll give a couple of examples.

Regarding the homophobia claims. I think they should go in, with citations from the papers raising the issue, and one of the nastier quotes from Li Hongzhi rather than the 'dark state of mind'. Now I realise I'm picking on Asdfg12345 again. He's said homophobia has little to do with Falun Gong. I checked the speeches starting from the beginning and by the time I'd got to 1999 I'd found dozens including a string of speeches where Li Hongzhi had raise the issue. It was late and I was disillusioned so I stopped there. I was a bit disappointed to find that Asdfg12345 was so emphatically wrong. I've since gone back and looks at the 2000 onwards speeches. It's like turning off a switch - the homophobia disappear. Then you get to the 'treat homosexuals as sentient beings' quote. I wouldn't say it was a full 180º turnaround, but it seems to be past 90º. In that instance I think it would make far more sense for the FG comment to go at the end. That way we can see where the claim came from, and why FG practitioners today wouldn't recognise homophobia as a feature of Falun Gong.

On the other side there was the Canadian case against Falun Gong practitioners which said that they do not react well to criticism. And the reaction was: "Please show the court page instead of placing your personal libels on math department http://www.math.mcgill.ca/triples. I would write to the department to disclose your abusing schools' resource." from fnhddzs. Irony is alive and well and living in Quebec.

In this instance I'd suggest not too graphically explaining what the allegations against Falun Gong were and make clear that the allegations (as best as I can tell from the court report) were groundless, but in this case end with the observation that Falun Gong does not react well to criticism. An FG rebuttal at the end really wouldn't help the cause.

Alun, could you read the case decision again? The suit was brought against a Chinese community paper by FLG disciples, and FLG lost the case with the judge citing free speech protection and FLG being a controversial movement. Bobby fletcher (talk) 07:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

One help with balance could also be the model X then Y. Not X then Y then X again. Whichever way you load it, it'll look unbalanced. It's a judgement call as to which claim goes first, but top 'n' tailing arguments is a bad idea.

[edit] Falun Gong should be treated as a religion for Wikipedia purposes

That means it gets kid gloves, which I know will annoy Dawkins atheists, but that's Wikipedia convention. I also know the term religion annoys FG practitioners. The reason I'm saying it goes in the religion category is based on the ethnographies. It's not perfect because 'religion' is a western concept. On the other hand this is an anglophone encyclopaedia for a largely Western audience. This also has other implications.

The primary focus of this article should be the belief. I think the Chinese government's banning of the Falun Gong also has to go in this article, but first and foremost when you practice Falun Gong I'm assuming you're doing this for some spiritual benefit rather than to smash the Communist Party. I've cobbled together a belief section in the sandbox and I fully expect the Falun Gong practitioners to say it's awful, and they'll be right. It's a cut 'n' paste job of what I thought were highlights from the Beliefs and Teaching of Falun Gong page. Now I'll be open about this. I think the Beliefs page should be deleted. What I think should go in its place are pages about beliefs. What are the details of the five practices? They should at least have a page of their own or, if there's the material, a page each of their own. Fa rectification might need a page. The relationship between the two major books needs to be explained and I'm sure that the Falun Gong practioners can come up with more.

If you look at all the other beliefs pages then they have separate pages, plural, for their beliefs. One page looks a bit weak, especially when there's more on the suppression. I'm not belittling that, but perhaps pages showing how Falun Gong is something similar to Tai-Chi rather than Heaven's Gate would show why the suppression is unjust. At the moment ignoring the main article I'd say there's a 2:4 split in the articles listed on the right as Falun Gong articles in favour of the Faluns Gong's fight with the Chinese government. Is it really true that fighting the Chinese government is twice as important as the beliefs and practices to a typical Falun Gong practioner?

All points are good and well spoken. Even the fight with the Chinese government is based on a policy and not with the government itself. The beliefs should be emphasized and the fight left out of the picture. Then the reader can get an understanding about FG beliefs that is not clouded with the politics of China, that issue should be addressed elsewhere and not dragged into every section of the article.208.242.58.125 (talk) 15:10, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Additional information

After the beliefs section there's the history. That's going to need balance. I accept that Falun Gong may have been protesting about beating in Tianjin, but they didn't turn up there on a whim, and there needs to be a mention of He Zuoxiu's article too.

I've not filled out the propaganda section at all. I'm really not keen on trawling the web to read the two sides presenting themselves in the worst light. I'm sure everyone has their own favourite examples.

[edit] Outside mainland China

This reiterates that the Falun Gong are in a struggle against the Chinese government. If that's all there is to this section it can be deleted. It's redundant as we can cover the issues in the other sections.

Instead what can be said about internationalisation of Falun Gong? Why forty languages for translation? How did it spread? Which countries has it been particularly successful in and why? I know this could sound like a pro-FG section, but as I see it it's about information which is lacking elsewhere in the article and could be useful if the reader lives outside China but wants to know more. And let's face it, if they're reading Wikipedia they're very likely outside China.

[edit] How to move on

First off is there anything in the plan above which is unacceptable at a general level? For instance is there anyone that cannot agree to last words sometimes not belonging to Falun Gong? Is the treatment of it as a religious belief flatly unacceptable? There's no point hammering out details if the foundations aren't agreed.

After that I suggest that people work on material together and then see how they can integrate it. At this stage you may want the help of a mediator. I'd suggest contacting WP:MEDCAB at this stage. I wouldn't suggest me as there's an RFC out against me, so I may be a nasty person with a secret agenda.

If you do want to argue details you can pick at intro (text below). It's an attempt to make an NPOV intro. I know it leaves some statements unchallenged but it's an overview of what the article's about. It's the first word not the last.

Falun Gong or Falun Dafa is a spiritual practice introduced to the public in China by Li Hongzhi （李洪志） in 1992.[1] It has five sets of meditation exercises and seeks to develop practitioners' hearts and character according to the principles of Truthfulness, Compassion, and Forbearance (真，善，忍）articulated in the main books Falun Gong （法輪功）and Zhuan Falun （轉法輪）.[2][3] The teachings deal with issues such as "cultivation of virtue and character", "moral standards for different levels", and "salvation of all sentient beings." The books have been translated into over 40 languages.

Followers of Falun Gong do not consider the practice a religion. Instead they see the roots of the practice as scientific, though the traditional Chinese concept of science includes practices and methods not usually included in the Western concept of science. Sinologists have argued that its heavy emphasis on morality means that Falun Gong is better understood in the West as as religion.[4].[5] However the term religion is a modern import into China and its use is often associated with a political agenda.[1]

In April 1999, a silent rally of 10,000 Beijing practitioners protested at the Chinese Communist Party headquarters at Zhongnanhai[6] against a critical article written about Falun Gong.[7] In an attempt to eliminate a political threat[8], the Chinese government then began large-scale violent persecution of the practice in mainland China.[9] Amnesty International has condemned the suppression of Falun Gong and similar groups as "undermining the exercise of fundamental rights."[10] However the Chinese goverment has argued that Falun Gong is an 'evil cult'.[11]

The number of practitioners is not known and estimates vary from two million according to the Chinese government to a hundred million according to Li Hongzhi.

This isn't a quick fix, but looking at the edit history I don't think you'll get a consensus and solve the NPOV problem with a couple of quick edits. I hope this is a help and if it's not then I apologise for stirring everyone up again. Here's the link again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alunsalt (talk • contribs)

Aaaah, breath of fresh air! You are admirably the first editor in a long time who appears to be working this project from a non-partisan perspective. I agree in essence with each of the main points. Another change which I feel needs making is that the article title 'Persecution of Falun Gong' is non-neutral, and needs to be renamed 'Suppression of Falun Gong'. The most common description in the mainstream press is "clampdown", "suppression" or "alleged persecution", with FG exclusively using "persecution", as if it was de facto and divine given; some human rights groups occasionally also allege "persecution". Much of the more detailed allegations of maltreatment and torture and associated graphic images of people who may or may not have been torture victims are sourced only from WP:SPS or primary sources (directly from FG) and should be deleted. Some practitioners came around and renamed the article "persecution", without any significant discussion, and have resisted attempts to change it back. Ohconfucius (talk) 03:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Alun's perspective is sound. I'd be happy for him to make another attempt at a major revision of the article. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 06:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Love your work, Alun. For about two or three weeks starting now I won't be able to access wikipedia, but after that, I would gladly join this effort. I am in broad agreement about what you are saying. You made a lot of disclaimers, which is good, because there are many points I would take you to task on. You indicate that these should all be worked out as details, which is useful.

I can't give a comprehensive response to all that you've said right now, because of time constraints. I mostly came on to put a wikibreak tag on my page. I'm happy to see where it goes and help as I can when I get back. I am 'for' the general movement here. I am biased toward Falun Gong, I know that, and do not shy away from admitting it. I think Falun Gong is a good thing, it's as simple as that. At the same time, I am serious about constructing high-level encyclopedic quality articles on the subject. I would not bother investing time in trying to dish out pro-Falun Gong propaganda on wikipedia. No one would buy it, anyway. My primary concern is that the articles are neutral. I have read and am familiar with nearly all the academic literature on Falun Gong, and I nearly always back up what I say with high-level sources, and I make a strong effort to adhere strictly to wikipedia rules. I have backed out of disputes numerous times when I am outgunned, outclassed, or outsourced. I am aware of my bias, but above all am serious about making good, neutral articles. A few miscellaneous points, some thoughts, some responses:

I think the general movement in this article should be to treat Falun Gong in its cultural and historical context. This is the best way the subject is going to be properly understood and dealt with. There is some of this already, can do with more. Primarly this is two things: the ontological context (i.e., cultivation practice, qigong, theories of supernormal abilities, multiple dimensions, the divine nature of the universe, the unity between matter and spirit, etc.) and the historical/cultural context (the qigong boom of the 80s and 90s, cultivation practice as passed down through history, the qigong and cultivation discourse of the time). There is quite some material on this, already, and its presence may be strengthened by adding it more to the lead, I think. (David Ownby, probably the foremost expert on Falun Gong in the world, has recently published a book on Falun Gong. If you have a serious interest in this subject, I'd say you should read it.) Actually, you should actually read Zhuan Falun, or listen to the lectures, if you want to get a grip for yourself on what Falun Gong is about.

I agree about having much more on the teachings of Falun Gong. This is important. It's just a matter of someone doing it. And 1) I have not had much time, plus, worse, 2) I have not used my time well. Going forward, I would certainly like to see more of this. The persecution emphasis comes about I guess because it's such a huge and prominent thing.

You are right that I do not consider Falun Gong homophobic. I have a number of homosexual friends, who I get along very well with. Falun Gong's stake in it is metaphysical, not social. That homosexuals want to have equal marriage rights does not worry me, for example. I never meant to misrepresent anything to you, and whatever I have said has simply expressed my own perceptions. I think I said it was "mentioned two or three times", well, this is obviously wrong if you have actually searched and found a dozen independent instances. I just said that off the top of my head, because I could remember a couple of questions in I think it was the Switzerland conference. Apart from the Switzerland conference I am not too sure what there was. I remembered the LA "treat them as sentient beings", too. You may take from this that I do not actually consider it too important, and neither do practitioners in general. My previous affirmation still stands, an empirical measure of the significance of the subject in the teachings: it would not fill up 5 or 10 full pages, and while there are over 1000 pages of teachings, that's like less than one percent. When treating the teachings of Falun Gong in and of themselves, homosexuality should be put in its proper context. Some journalists and others have criticised Falun Gong for it though, so that should also be aired somewhere (whatever will replace the third-party page, maybe?), and yes, I think it should also be responded to by Falun Gong or sympathisers, which is my next point:

That criticism of Falun Gong has followed the form of thesis-antithesis. i.e.: someone is criticising Falun Gong, then Falun Gong or other defends it. This seems to me a fairly natural way of laying out the debate. Falun Gong or others would not be defending Falun Gong if it were not criticised; their argumentation is more-or-less a response to the criticism. You did not have Falun Gong or others pre-1999 arguing how Falun Gong is not a cult, because the CCP was not persecuting them and concocting propaganda. After 1999, you have a stack of this defence discourse. That's just a small point. Top-and-tailing it is not fair, you are right. Note also that mainstream academics on Falun Gong engage in analysis and discussion, rather than sensationalist "exposure" pieces; this is an e.g. of mainstream vs fringe views.

I like the ideas about how the overseas stuff should be treated. One thing to note here is that most of this is post-1999, and mostly response to persecution. I.e., the parades, public events, media outlets, websites, non-profit organisations, and so on, set up by practitioners, are all a post-1999 phenomenon, a response to the persecution. You would not see any of this otherwise, and you'd only hear about Falun Gong because you saw them exercising in the local park; it's fundamentally an inward-looking discipline. The overseas page now sucks because it is basically a chronicle of overseas persecution/response, so it's lame. It needs to be more theme-based, and select good examples from a few places to illustrate the different themes. Falun Gong is also one of the largest and most sustained dissident groups from mainland China, throughout the whole history of the CCP. This is a big deal.

I don't think a mediator is necessary? It's ironic you would suggest it, because I understand that mediators are basically in cases where there are two disputing parties, which is just what you have signaled should be put a stop to! It don't think it's needed. I want the pages to be great, neutral, and pass community review to become featured. I think the subject deserves it. I also acknowledge that I will have to budge in my own conceptions for this to happen. As of yet, if there are no indications that getting a neutral set of pages is going to be all out warfare, then I don't think mediation is appropriate or necessary. I welcome change to the articles, and a good dose of neutral outside opinion.

A final thing in response to confucius. The definition for persecution is: "the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group by another group or individual" (wikipedia) or "A program or campaign to subjugate or eliminate a specific group of people, often based on race, religion, sexuality, or social beliefs." (wiktionary). Isn't that what's happening to Falun Gong in China? is it biased to say that? Disqualifying the pictures of tortured people or protesting in Tiananmen getting beaten down is a surprising move. I don't know if it's because you are saying they are faked or what? On the Behind the Red Wall documentary, there is video footage of Tan Yongjie, pictured here at a doctors surgery, with the doctor talking about his burns. It's not like these pictures are made up, or the fact of the persecution is actually in question, is it? Do you really question that practitioners are being rounded up and jailed, put into forced labour camps, and tortured? Gao Rongrong's pic is also on an Amnesty factsheet. These qualify under fair use, and are used to illustrate the article. Personally, I think it's like trying to delete pictures from the holocaust or Rwandan genocide article, saying they are biased. I would just say: "oh, come on now."

The big problem with this article on Falun Gong is one of credibility as so many of the abuse claims put forward by the Falun Gong organization are not only unverifiable in nature, only partially verifiable or only verifiable as fabrications such as the pictures of "abuse victims" that were debunked by a reviewing MD, but their claims otherwise strain the mind to be believable for anyone intimately familiar with China. For instance, the Rhombus Disease Hospital in Shenyang that Falun has claimed to be historically used to cut Falun Gong members up for their organs and dispose of their bodies to the magnitude of thousands of people happens to be and has always been in an unguarded very public place, and is itself an unguarded public hopsital that anyone can walk into all located in a densely populated portion of China. For what they claimed to have happened without anyone knowing or reporting on it other than Falun Gong members and would require a rather harsh stretch of the imagination. The problem is that most people outside of China have no idea what life inside China is really like, or for that matter what the level of individual freedom inside China is really like, so it is easy for them to make uneducated assumptions; problems exist in China, but I'd hardly correlate them to Orwellian proportions. If you'd like to argue with me about it, then I'd suggest you do your homework, as I grew up in Beijing and half of my family still lives in the Shenyang area. Giving deference to Falun Gong for relating things in a truthful manner when they make such outlandish claims is like accepting the words of Alex Jones as a respectable source of journalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beerman5000 (talk • contribs)

This is where I naturally come to better understand the controversy surrounding FG and organ transplantation. The 'debunking' of pictures that you mention doesn't appear in this article or in the organ harvesting article. If it's true, then it needs to be added. Fuzzypeg ★ 01:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

What I would like to see is neutral language that is a simple necessity of a neutral non-biased article. One cannot state something as fact when it is unproven to be fact and may very well be utterly untrue and thus propagate rather harmful falsehoods. Beerman5000 (talk) 08:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

This line is quite biased in its approach: "In an attempt to eliminate a political threat[8], the Chinese government then began large-scale violent persecution of the practice in mainland China.[9]" It alleges violence of which there is no proof and alleges that the government merely saw the religion as a political threat when according to them it was banned for being a form of social fraud in which the founders sought money and power from followers at the expense of their followers. Both mentions of violence are unverifiable except by Falun Gong sources. This is still just re-voicing propaganda. An argument could be made for repressing it as a religion, but not for any "large-scale violent persecution" of which there is NO record other than what is said by Falun Gong members themselves. If any personal epithets were at all useful in relating my experiences with Falun Gong, I'd relate them now, but personal stories of unverifiable nature are NOT useful; so, why do so many people here feel that just because claims are levied somewhere online or in some publication they must be related as the "Gospel" truth when Falun Gong has such a highly questionable ability to relate the truth? Beerman5000 (talk) 08:50, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I've seen photos of FG protesters being beaten by plain-clothes police. It seems fairly well established that a huge (huge) number of FG practitioners are held in prisons in China; are you suggesting that China didn't use any violence in detaining any of them? And Amnesty International deal with plenty of individual cases of torture victims from Chinese jails, quite a number of them FG. You're saying Amnesty International just make all this up? Sorry, I don't mean to make this sound accusatory. But what are you saying? Fuzzypeg ★ 01:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This is misleading. There is no reliable source making these statements about those photos. This all comes from blogs and rumours. I suggest anyone who wants to read about this for sure go read the Kilgour Matas report, and I'll copy a line here because they respond to these photograph concerns. Actually, it's not long and I'm going to copy the whole thing here. Usually I don't respond to this kind of nonsense. Most people who peddle this rubbish aren't going to change their minds about this persecution and the reality of it anyway; they have dug in and chosen their side, and they'll say the sky is yellow as long as you say it's blue because you're "the enemy". I copy here the relevant section--Asdfg12345 03:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 29) Corpses with missing organs

FROM http://organharvestinvestigation.net/report0701/report20070131.htm#_Toc160145141

A number of family members of Falun Gong practitioners who died in detention reported seeing the corpses of their loved ones with surgical incisions and body parts missing. The authorities gave no coherent explanation for these mutilated corpses. Again the evidence about these mutilated corpses is attached as an appendix to this report.

We have only a few instances of such mutilated corpses. We have no official explanation why they were mutilated. Their mutilation is consistent with organ harvesting.

In the first version of our report, appendix twelve had a photo of a person with stitches after his body was cut open to remove organs. One comment we received back is that the stitches the photos show are consistent with an autopsy.

We observe that organs may indeed be removed for autopsies in order to determine the cause of death. A corpse which has been autopsied may well have stitches similar to those shown in the photo. Outside of China, except for organ donors, that is likely the reason why organs would be removed from a corpse. Similarly, outside of China, when people are blood tested, typically, the test is done for their own health. However, the suggestion that Falun Gong practitioners who are tortured to the point of death are blood tested for their health or that practitioners who are tortured to death are autopsied to determine the cause of death belies the torture experience.

The corpse whose photo we reproduced was that of Wang Bin. Beatings caused the artery in Mr. Wang's neck and major blood vessels to break. As a result, his tonsils were injured, his lymph nodes were crushed, and several bones were fractured. He had cigarette burns on the backs of his hands and inside his nostrils. There were bruises all over his body. Even though he was already close to death, he was tortured again at night. He finally lost consciousness. On the night of October 4, 2000, Mr. Wang died from his injuries.

The purpose of an autopsy report is to determine the cause of death when the cause is otherwise unknown. But in the case of Wang Bin, the cause of death was known before his organs were removed. The suggestion that Wang Bin would be autopsied to determine the cause of death after he was tortured to death is not plausible. There was no indication that the family of Wang Bin was asked for consent before the organs of the victim were removed nor provided an autopsy report afterwards. The suggestion of an autopsy is not a tenable explanation for the stitches on Wang Bin's body.

ENDS

Anyway, I'm wary of little talk and no action, so I'll stop here, wish you all best of luck in engaging with this complex topic, and rejoin sometime in two weeks to see what great stuff you have cooked up.--Asdfg12345 13:35, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The following articles, among others, are found on Wikipedia: Persecution of Jews, Persecution of Christians, Persecution of Muslims, Persecution_of_Bahá'ís, Persecution of Hindus, Persecution of Atheists, Persecution of Zoroastrians, Persecution of Rastafari, Persecution of Jehovah's Witnesses, Persecution of Germanic Pagans, Persecution of Buddhists, and Persecution of Wiccans. Before we can consider changing the article name, you'll have to explain why we should stray from these naming conventions. ✔ Olaf Stephanos ✍ 13:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

WP:Title#Controversial names currently states: "Generally, an article's title should not be used as a precedent for the naming of any other articles." 'Persecution' can be correct by the dictionary and still POV. Many new religious movements could be called cults based on dictionary definitions, but calling them that in titles would be POV. WP:NPOV currently states: "The neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject: it neither endorses nor discourages viewpoints." 'Persecution' endorses a viewpoint, however justified that viewpoint may be. --Simon D M (talk) 15:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

On the related subject of saying what FG is: The term new religious movement seems to be commonly used by academics with reference to Falun Gong. Of course, many new religious movements object to being called religious, often preferring to be called spiritual paths or cultivations systems or some other term that only covers a part of the subject. --Simon D M (talk) 16:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

RE: balance, there needs to be some I'm sure, but for many non-adherents the suppression will be more notable than the beliefs. But as things stand there is too little on beliefs and practices on the main page, too much on the suppression, and too little on the criticisms of FG. --Simon D M (talk) 16:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

If there has been historical development on the issue of homophobia, that should find mention on one of the pages. --Simon D M (talk) 16:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

By the way, Falun Gong's organ harveting allegation has been discredited by multiple undercover investigations:

US State Dept:

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2006&m=April&x=20060416141157uhyggep0.5443231&t=livefeeds/wf-latest.html

http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RL33437.pdf (section CRS-7)

Chinese dissident Harry Wu:

http://www.cicus.org/info_eng/artshow.asp?ID=6491

http://www.zonaeuropa.com/20060806_1.htm

An expose from the Ottawa Citizen:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/observer/story.html?id=2c15d2f0-f0ab-4da9-991a-23e4094de949&p=3 (page 3, 4)

Bobby fletcher (talk) 05:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where/How to edit?

With a bit more thought then I propose we work in three phases.

[edit] Phase 1

We set up an article skeleton in a neutral sandbox. It could go in mine, but I'm wary of making it look like I'm the arbiter of what is or isn't neutral. Shared space would be better. Would a sub-page below Talk avoid auto-deletion?

For this phase we all add in the material we think should be in the article - without deleting anyone else's opinions. So for example under Outside mainland China OhConfucius can put in a sub heading with his name on it. If I want to contribute to that section too then I put in a subheading with my name on it, and work under my sub-heading without touching his. I realise that this will make the draft article MASSIVE and very repetitive, but it will also lay out what we're discussing.

[edit] Phase 2

I'd expect we'll find that the material will fall into three categories.

Uncontroversial material

That can go in without a problem. It may need copy editing but that's all.

Material where there is more than one opinion to be represented.

When we see what other people have written we'll want to compile the opinions and re-write them in the light of other opinions. Sometimes it'll be easy to say what is X and what is Y in the X then Y model. Sometimes it won't and we'll just have to barter over who is X and Y in that case. I'll also add the clarification this will have to be X then Y - not Y's opinion of X then Y.

Contradictory Material

The Propaganda section will produce plenty of this, because someone's going to say "Claim A isn't propaganda! It's a fact!" We'll probably be questioning WP:SPS and WP:RS a lot. I've no easy solution to that.

In this phase it also makes sense to look at the headings. For example I'd be amazed if "Propaganda" was ok with with everyone

A lot of this discussion is not going to be easy. That's why I suggest bringing in a mediator at this stage. I wholeheartedly agree with asdfg12345 that in the long term this is not a good idea. Right now though we've got a discussion with a lot of history and we're human. Even if everyone is working with the best intentions divisions aren't going to magically disappear by turning a new leaf. Someone with experience of mediating would be a big help in this phase.

[edit] Phase 3

With the bulk of the article done we now look at the introduction, We make it fairly minimal if we can and have it mention what is in the article below, not present things as conclusion. Again this may need a mediator.

With the main article ready we then need to discuss what the satellite articles are going to be and how they'll be arranged. The page doesn't exist in isolation and we'll need to look hard at how the various Falun Gong and Qijong pages relate to each other.

[edit] The current article

My only plans for this for now would be to leave it, as it's going to be wiped if we have a new article to put in. I know that means leaving a bad article up for a few more weeks, but I can't see a simple solution to that.

Equally this will be a discussion about the article not about the truth or otherwise about Falun Gong. Just because someone follows Falun Gong that won't rule them out of the discussion any more than being a Catholic rules you out of editing the Catholic pages. I'm not interested in 'enlightening' Falun Gong practioners or showing them the error of their ways. There might be a problem for bias to look out for in some situations, but if we're serious about improving coverage of the beliefs then it's a huge asset for many more.

It's also not about blaming any people for the current article. One of the things which is visible in the archives is that people were doing what they thought would make the article better. It's a collective problem that the process has run into a dead-end.

If some people have a serious problem with this model then I'm not offended, there may be a better way of doing this. This way is not quick but is it workable? Alun Salt (talk) 23:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Let's Go

I've been waiting for the barrage of comments, but the lack of it suggests to me that we may have a relatively uncontentious way forward. Ohconfucius (talk) 05:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

uhh? I would encourage others than myself to take the lead in this process. I think Alun's ideas are pretty good. "Propaganda" of course wouldn't be the best section heading—which purported propaganda is it referring to? The vilification against Falun Gong, or Falun Gong's response? I think the CCP stuff has plenty on it and can just go in the persecution article. There is some literature on Falun Gong's discursive media and publicity strategies, how it attempts to represent itself. I think this would be a good section in the Overseas page. There's stuff written in journals, books, and newspaper articles about all the websites, media networks, and so on, practitioners have set up to transmit their message. Assembling all this would make an interesting narrative.

For now, can we clearly identify what the issues are with the current version, and then share on strategies for improving them, then set in motion a concrete process for actually doing so? This seems to tie in a bit with what Mr Salt has already said, though I think it would help now to talk directly about the article, and identify: where it falls short, what we'll do to improve those aspects, and how we are going to do that. Is this a good direction?

one more thing, quickly, is that the main article is, apart from a few sections, almost a feeder of all the daughter articles. It introduces and links to them, which are all aspects of the Falun Gong article series. I would say on the main page there should be some more care to explain more on Falun Gong in itself, i.e., it's teachings, context, then follow with the daughter article blurbs and links. To get to this point effectively though, the daughter articles themselves need to be clear and good. Three daughter articles so far stand out as needing significant improvements/overhauls:

Teachings page
Overseas page
Competing representations (or whatever it will be) page

Work on the main article therefore might be across these sections, also related to the above:

getting the lead simple, introductive, interesting
more on the context of Falun Gong, as this doesn't belong to any daughter article and needs to be here
more on the teachings, where the teachings section on the main page, while still linked like any other daughter article, is accorded significantly more text to introduce itself

There could be more, important stuff to do though, and as I say, I may be better placed by not taking a lead, this is just my 2 cents right here.--Asdfg12345 05:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

There's now an article listed at Talk:Falun_Gong/sandbox. I've suggested a target date for the end of April for everyone to contribute, which allows for Wikibreaks, re-thinks etc. If it turns out there's a mad rush at the end of April, we can just extend Phase One a bit. I've put in sample entries in each of the sections so you can see which are mine. Feel free to place your proposals above or below them and disagree vehemently with me if you wish, but in your own section so we're not tripping over each other's edits. I realise a month isn't quick, but at least this way we're not dropping a surprise deadline on anyone. Alun Salt (talk) 13:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Important phenomenon

Asdfg, you have now reinstated the quotation about FG being an "important phenomenon". I have pointed out repeatedly that those words are empty praise, meaning approximately "really cool" or "frickin' awesome". I am now taking the quotation out yet again. If you must have a quotation from Penny there, then please find one where he says something concrete and substantive, such as "the fastest-growing religion" or "the dominant form of qi gong in the media". If, indeed, he has said something along those lines. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 11:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Benjamin Penny, a noted sinologist, claims that Falun Gong is one of the most important phenomena to come out of China in recent years. A WP editor claims this is not a concrete or substantive fact, but merely an opinion, or perhaps they're claiming that it is not clear enough what his statement is about. Either way, they believe it is thus unworthy of inclusion in the article.

My first observation is that Penny's statement wasn't properly cited. Look in reference 6 for the exact quote.

My second observation is that the editor in question needs to make clear whether they're arguing against including this statement on the basis that it is merely opinion, or on the basis that it is unclear or simply a form of praise.

If this statement can be cited, then of course it's a "concrete" and "substantive" fact. The substantive fact being that Penny said it, not necessarily that what he said is true. But that's fine. It may have been only George Bush's "opinion" that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, but that opinion came from a major spokesperson who was supposed to be well informed regarding those issues, so the article on the Iraq War quotes his opinion. Pretty much everything in wikipedia comes down to opinion (for instance it is just the opinion of a bunch of physicists that the speed of light is constant with respect to any observer); the reason that any of these opinions are valuable to the reader is that the sources are made clear, so the reader can decide who they agree with. I can't see why citing an opinion would be seen as a problem, unless someone has misinterpreted the verifiability policy.

If the argument is that it's unclear, or simply a form of praise, that doesn't make sense to me. If it were praise (nothing to suggest that it is, though), it's praise by a noted sinologist, which makes it worthy of inclusion. What he's actually saying though is simply that of the various phenomena emerging from China in the last ten years (presumably ranked against other phenomena like bird flu, or that bizarre fascination with Louis Vuitton handbags), Falun Gong is fairly important. Big on the "newsworthy" scale. Likely to rock our world. Something like that.

If Penny's statement had been impossible to make sense of, I would possibly agree with its removal, although I would first check the source to see whether any vital context was missing. However this is plain English, and all the context necessary to understand it is supplied. He's a sinologist. He thinks Falun Gong is an important phenomenon. He doesn't say it's frickin' cool. That's not what "important" means.

If you still disagree with that statement's inclusion, then please clearly explain which WP policy you're basing your claim on. Cheers, Fuzzypeg ★ 04:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Nobody, sinologist or otherwise, is suggesting that FG is too unimportant to warrant an article in Wikipedia. So the article isn't improved by quoting people who say it's important. It's just redundant information. You might as well quote every single Chinese politician who has deemed FG important enough to mention in a speech. Please revert your edit. I'll wait a few days. Martin Rundkvist (talk) 08:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why you bring up notability policy, which allows articles to be written about quite obscure and unimportant subjects. The fact that FG has an article in no way makes the quoted statement redundant. The reader cannot imply that FG is one of the most important phenomena arising in China in the 1990s, simply from the fact that it has an article in Wikipedia. Oh, and if a Chinese politician had said the same thing as Perry, that would definitely be worth quoting, and I'm sure that politician would be in prison by now!

Enough of these non-sequiturs. As I've already asked, please clearly explain why this is an unsuitable quote to include in the article and which Wikipedia policy you're basing your argument on. We can only have a reasonable debate about this once you explain what your actual position is and stick to it. Last week your argument was that "important" was synonymous with "frickin' cool", and this week you've changed tack entirely, saying that because FG has a WP article the quote doesn't add any new information. Rather than answer any of my points from my previous post, you've advanced a new, equally bizarre argument. Please choose your argument(s), explain them clearly, and stick to them, and we can start to debate their merits.

Thanks, Fuzzypeg ★ 02:12, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the important phenomenon bit by Penny. The sentence is irrelevant. Intranetusa (talk) 20:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notable Sources supporting FLG "Controversial Religious Movement" description

Can we use it now? WSJ here, has said "religious movement":

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120767826129498577.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

You can find many instances of such from notable sources. It should be acceptable in wiki.

In conjunction with other notable sources declaring FLG "controversial movement", such description should be okay, per wikipedia policy. Matt, unless you object... Bobby fletcher (talk) 05:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Are there any drafts in the works?

Hello, I just got my hands on some free time, I did not read everything on the talk page just yet, so I would like to know if there are any drafts in the works, on the Category:Falun_Gong pages. Thank You --HappyInGeneral (talk) 10:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, go here. Ohconfucius (talk) 03:35, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Ohconfucius, in the mean time I read today the talk page. Good work Alun, this opens up for a really civilized way of doing things :) --HappyInGeneral (talk) 11:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Disputing TheZirk's blanking of fact from notable source

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Falun_Gong&diff=205082733&oldid=204143956

This fact from notable source has been discussed, please check the talk archive first before blanking Bobby fletcher (talk) 20:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The given link doesn't work. would this link be more reliable? Or is there another reliable site where this judgement is quoted? Fuzzypeg ★ 00:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I see you've already changed the link. Sorry. And that's probably the safest way to ensure the link doesn't go out of date, to simply link to the search page. Well done. Fuzzypeg ★ 00:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Not very appropriate or relevant, IMHO. There's more about the judge's view that the movement or followers do not accept criticism well than the case itself. The title is also dubious from a NPOV standpoint: a heading saying 'controversy' and text saying a judge believes it is controversial. Big deal. Tell us something new? Clearly inappropriate here, regardless of whether a reliable source is available for that comment - a case of an editor trying to make a point here, methinks. Come back when you have something pertinent to say. Reverting for now. Ohconfucius (talk) 06:54, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

There is editorial disagreement here, true; but that doesn't necessarily mean that Bobby Fletcher is trying to push his view and you are not, Ohconfucious. You may not agree with the judge's decision, but the fact is it is a judgement based on measured evaluation of evidence, made in the supreme court of Canada and setting a legal precedent for Canada. Remember that a judge's job is to sift the evidence and make dispassionate judgements. It's their profession. Statements like that are not made lightly, and carry a lot of weight, as much as, say, Penny's statement that Falun Gong is one of the most important phenomena to arise in China in the 1990s. The statement is clearly attributed, so readers can decide for themselves whether it's simply a reflection of the judge's own biases.

Perhaps it doesn't require its own heading, but I believe the statement should remain somewhere in the article. Fuzzypeg ★ 00:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not disputing the validity or the credibility of the quote, or its sourcing. Whether I personally agree with it or not is neither here nor there. The problem as I saw it, and stated above, was that the paragraph is not pertinent. There's nothing about the case, except that the judge said FG is a controversial movement. A supreme court justice's opinion may be important, but this comment is not exactly cited in a context which allows us to understand it for what it is. I'm sorry, I still don't see why it should belong. Ohconfucius (talk) 01:55, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[...]

"The evidence is not sufficient to allow the Court to come to the conclusion that the contents of the impugned articles... are false, grossly inaccurate, published to incite hatred and derision in Canada or persecution in the People's Republic of China"

or in plain English: "The court rejected the plaintiffs claim of class action, and stated that there was insufficient evidence that the journal had published false and grossly inaccurate articles in order to incite hatred and derision of Falun Gong practitioners"

I still doubt the case is worth citing. The source document is a primary source, and although it may have picked up coverage, but there are no secondary sources I could find. If include this apparently minor civil case, there could be endless edit wars over the Truthful, Compassionate, and Forbearant (sic) behaviour of FG practitioners in this case and also further afield in their attempts to silence the movement's critics. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ohconfucius Please Don't 'blank' or DE fact from notable source

As you can see, more than one editor disagree with you. BTW There are plenty of secondary soruce:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=La+Presse+Chau&spell=1

I question why you are using Google HK and the case title instead of how this news would be reported? Look like you are trying not to find news about it. If you noticed all the Falun Gong media made a huge fuss over this case. I didn't think you are insinuating Epoch Times is not reliable source? Bobby fletcher (talk) 19:54, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Kindly do your homework before you accuse me of blanking fact from a notable source. I did find mentions of the case. On a more precise search, I found 28 unique Ghits: the only secondary sources appear to be Clearwisdom and Epoch Times, neither of which I consider reliable sources. What is more, I found no direct reference to the judge's statement as to the "controversial movement", even in the two abovementioned (hardly surprising, though, as FG don't like criticism). Notwithstanding, I still completely challenge the relevance of the "fact" you posted, as previously explained. Just because something exists and can be cited doesn't mean it Should be cited -certainly if it fails the relevance test. It's up to you to find a primary source and a rationale for inclusion. So far, you do not appear to have, so reverting for now. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:04, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

What, prey tell, is the "relevance test"? And why do we need secondary sources when the primary source is perfectly reliable itself? Perhaps you could point us to the WP policies or guidelines regarding these. Thanks, Fuzzypeg ★ 02:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Discussion with Ohconfucius copied from User talk:Fuzzypeg and User talk:Ohconfucius

OK, I've now read the case. You asserted that it is ground-breaking, but I cannot find any sources to back your claim up. AFAICT, the case was a set up by 232 Canadian FG practitioners as a sort of 'class action libel' case against a small-run Chinese newspaper whose persistently critical views and articles offended them. They succeeded in taking it all the way to the supreme court. The case was summarised by the judge as" as to the effectiveness of a class action in the context of collective defamation, as opposed to its availability, there is no certainty [...] "The evidence is not sufficient to allow the Court to come to the conclusion that the contents of the impugned articles... are false, grossly inaccurate, published to incite hatred and derision in Canada or persecution in the People's Republic of China"

I still doubt the case is worth citing. The source document is a primary source, and although it may have picked up coverage, but there are no secondary sources I could find. If include this apparently minor civil case, there could be endless edit wars over the Truthful, Compassionate, and Forbearant (sic) behaviour of FG practitioners, attempting to silence the movement's critics. I'll leave it for you to decide whether that's desirable. Ohconfucius (talk) 03:37, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi, you said "You asserted that it is ground-breaking". Where did I assert this?

Now regarding whether we do or don't include this reference, your argument seems to be that it is only a relatively minor case, and leaving it in will only promote edit warring, as other minor cases are added to the article. If I've misunderstood you, then please correct me.

My response to this would be that while the case itself is relatively minor, it prompted the judge to make a broadly-stated comment about Falun Gong in general. The text quoted in the article refers not to the specific civil action, but to the Judge's summary of the Falun Gong movement in general. This quote is interesting, because it is an appraisal from an independent westerner who is (or should be) dispassionate and informed, and it is valuable, because it is one of the few distinctly negative appraisals from someone who (frankly) doesn't work for the Chinese government. I think it provides a valuable point of balance. Any sane person is going to waqnt to find better information than the rantings of the Chinese government, but once you take those out of the picture you're left with a very idealistic depiction of a movement without flaws. Statements like this judge's one, from independent sources, help balance that picture out and give the reader some sense of context. They understand that FG may be flawed (depending on the one's perspective), and if so those flaws largely come down to the fact that it promotes mysticism, and that it has a tendency not to accept criticism.

A little bit of bland criticism like that shows up China's extreme criticism for what it really is. It provides an independent perspective. Fuzzypeg ★ 06:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

You said "setting a legal precedent for Canada" which is pretty ground-breaking. But again, I have found no sources to back it up. By your own apparent admission, it is indeed a pretty minor case. As to summarising my reasoning, you missed the bit about it coming only from a primary source, as far as the comment is specifically concerned ;-). Your interpretation about the judge's comment about it being a "useful and interesting" general statement provided to give balance (third paragraph), relying only on a primary source and in the absence of a reliably published commentary to that effect, appears to me to be original research. I am arguing that, without context of the legal case and the deliberations of the judge, the stand-alone comment lacks pertinence. Ohconfucius (talk) 08:19, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

If you think that legal precedents are "ground breaking" that's your words, not mine. I don't see them as ground breaking; any supreme court ruling is seen as a legal precedent, that's just the way it works.

My wording was "relatively minor", which is a relative statement. I didn't call it a "pretty minor case". My intention was to say that the importance of that particular civil case between the FG practitioners and the newspaper was of relatively minor interest to the article, since the article already describes plenty of more extreme examples of mistreatment and misrepresentation of FG practitioners; the comments of the judge regarding FG in general are more important, though, since they fill an under-represented gap in the article: independent criticism of FG.

I didn't miss your statement about secondary sources, I just didn't realise you were expressing that you have a problem with primary research. Primary research is fine in WP. A secondary source that summarises this and other cases would have the added bonus of providing the information more succinctly as well as giving extra contextual information, but until such a secondary source is found, a primary source is just fine.

My comments about why I think this information is useful to readers are not original research, at least not as Wikipedia terms it. If I was adding those thoughts to the article then it would be OR, but this is merely discussion about the article. By your reasoning, everything on these talk pages could be called OR and ignored, and we'd have constant edit warring because there would never be any meaningful editorial discussion. Editorial discussion is not OR. If you don't agree with something I say it's because you simply don't agree, not because it's OR.

If you think more needs to be mentioned about the trial for the information to be "pertinent" then we can mention a little more about the trial. All that needs to be said is that it was in the context of a case claiming defamation against FG practitioners.

Oh, and I'm copying this to the article talk page, since other editors might have an opinion. Fuzzypeg ★ 02:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I suggest the quote belongs either in the "Outside mainland China" section, or the Third-party views on Falun Gong article. Fuzzypeg ★ 02:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I just don't see how the judge's statement (paragraph 40 of the judgement) relates to the topic in question. Why we should have a statement by a judge, cited out of context, saying that Falun Gong "is a controversial movement, which does not accept criticism" should be inserted? Just because there is no independent criticism which could be cited does not appear to be a good reason. The movement is controversial and opinions are extremely polarised. The fact remains that this case was reported nowhere, AFAICT, except for Epoch Times. If you really looked hard, you will find plenty more relevant criticism elsewhere without resorting to putting in stuff which is problematic. I have found relevant criticism in some of the articles Ian Johnson has written, and I am sure there is more. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:40, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you leave other people's edit alone, until the dispute is resolved? Obviousley, more than one editors disagrees with you, but you keep blanking the fact from the article. There are other ways to improve the article besides blanking. You say there are more relevant criticism but I don't see you using them to replace what you deleted.

Also can you find ONE place in the wiki that followed up on the brief mentioning of this decision in the lead? Detailed discussion of this case is necessary to back up the summary in the lead. And everything quoted is relevant to Falun Gong's controversial nature. As this wiki is not FLG promotional material, facts like this should be allowed.

I'm going to revert your blanking, until we can come to an agreement, or have the dispute arb'd - please do not DE other's good faith edit of notable facts until we reach a resolution.

I disagree with your challange - what now, should we go to arb?

BTW, I tried to add an article from Asia Times by Italian journalist Francisco Scici, but it was blanked too - citing something you said which you never responded to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Falun_Gong/Archive23#STRONGLY_Disput_Asdfg.27s_.27blanking.27_of_notable_source_with_invalid_rationale

Bobby fletcher (talk) 22:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, why don't we try and find some other opinions? The statement which you keep on reinserting is not only irrelevant, but as it stands grossly misrepresents the judgement, which is about a class-action libel case brought by FG practitioners against a small-circulation Chinese journal in Canada. You are trying to score a point about the controversy of the movement by using a court ruling, and using it completely out of context. Ohconfucius (talk) 12:29, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Ohconfucius, how about you add some of the critique by Ian Johnson that you mentioned. Hopefully that would make this court ruling redundant and we could drop this argument. You talk about opinions being extremely polarised regarding this controversial subject — that's precisely why I feel an independent and highly reputable source such as a supreme court judge is so worth including. But if there's some good summary discussion by Ian Johnson then I'd be happy to go with that. Fuzzypeg ★ 05:47, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Ohconfucius, I must again ask you to not DE other editor's goodfaith edit until your disagreement with multiple editors is resolved. The quoted portion of the judgement is never meant to reflect the case itself - it is meant as a notable source declaring Falun Gong controversial - because some other editors disputed the characterization of "controversial", hence the need for such fact to be cited. Also, this case was mentioned in the lead, naturally a discussion of the summary item is appropriate in the body of the article, therefor relevant.

BTW, if you are not aware of some other people's representation of what you said, I'm going to put the cited links back in.Bobby fletcher (talk) 18:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The way you keep on reverting me, completely ignoring my arguments, makes me suspect that good faith may not figure very highly on your agenda. I don't think there's any contention FG are controversial, but we just don't need irrelevant and out-of-context citations here. This article is crap enough as it is. Although I still do not believe the paragraph belongs, I have now put the text into a relevant context, I hope there is no more argument on this point. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:04, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I can say the same thing about you - TWO editors disagrees with your blanking, yet you keep doing it. And none of the suggestions made to you was acceptable (move the fact, replace it with another fact). And even now your edit has removed the quote that speaks about why the judge thought FLG was controversial.

If Falun Gong's controversial nature is such a widely accepted fact, why has there been so much problem with it getting removed in the article? At one point all critical facts were POV Forked to another article, and this wiki became FLG promotional material. Bobby fletcher (talk) 02:53, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Read my lips: "If you find something relevant and within context, I'll buy it". It's neither, so stop trying to push it like it is. I just changed it to make it relevant - I don't think I removed very much that was relevant. The judge didn't award against FG practitioners for being controversial or for "teachings promise supernatural and healing powers, purification with a wheel in the stomach, and reject science". The comment was made en passant. For the hive of activity this article has been, it's suddenly gone all quiet. Could all the action be over at 2008 Tibetan unrest or 2008 Olympic Torch relay? I'll have you know that two people (over one) hardly counts as a majority, and certainly isn't consensus as far as it's know on wikipedia, so will you kindly stop your 'holier than thou' attitude. I welcome other comments. Ohconfucius (talk) 03:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Two people is more than one. Also you read the decision wrong. According to [26], [30] the silent plaintiff were dismissed as a class:

[26] accordingly, the class action should go ahead on that basis

[30] Accordingly, these 220 silent petitioners have not discharged their burden of proof and their claim shall be dismissed.

BTW, no one ignored your argument - let me repeat agin - this fact is notable, relevant to the article "Falun Gong", and is made in the context of other editors blanking the the "controversial" edit on the basis of non-notability.

Your arguments were ddressed - you simply choose to ignore them. Bobby fletcher (talk) 03:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

So what if it's en-passant? Even if FLG won, the judge's NOTABLE STATEMENTS re FLG's controversial nature, and her noting controversial aspects of FLG's teachings would still be relevant to this article. Get it thru your head - the lawsuit and who won is never the point. Bobby fletcher (talk) 03:24, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] My own analysis

As an American with no connection to either China or Buddhism, I came across Falun Gong when going through a search for truth, that included looking at many spiritual beliefs, and what I came across makes me believe that almost every article on new-age religions such as Scientology sides with the religion rather than what the religion actually represents. I did see many pamphlets from Falun itself that posits the founder of Falun with Buddha himself, which the founder is now denying. The articles here are some of the most vehemently pro-falun that I have ever encountered and whitewashes everything that has been said about the religion. I believe that a major rewrite is in order. EgraS (talk) 01:29, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

This article was hijacked by Falun Gong disciples and I suspect also reporters of FLG newspaper Epoch Times, and turned into Falun Gong promotional matierial. Those of us who simply wanted to add facts otherwise where blanked, incessantly challanged, some even arbed to death. Trust me this is not over. They are quiet now because the FLG editors probably emailed eachother to lay low, wait out the impartial editors who have come here, and after Martin, Alum, etc., are gone - they'll come back and hack it up again.

Just look at the history of this Wiki you'll see what I'm talking about. Bobby fletcher (talk) 03:39, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll do some additional research on all the claims in this article and play my part. EgraS (talk) 05:14, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Just so you know what you are getting yourself into, check the 2 most recent talk archives. The Epoch Times reporter I suspect is the coordinator in "defending" these Falun Gong wikis. He's Australian, and just happen to disappear from Wikipedia while the Olympic torch go thru Australia? IMHO it's not a coincidence. These FLG disciples/editors is known to tag-team stuff they don't like, and a single editor only has 3 revert (else it's WP violation and arb, look at top of talk.)

Also, check the rewrite section and sandbox Alunm started. Bobby fletcher (talk) 17:36, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

As an editor who came to the FG articles fairly randomly (I was looking for more info on FG), I'm not interested in taking anybody's side. I'm just interested in being able to read a balanced article that contains the major relevant information. I've been very sad to see the state of the discussions here. This is not the climate of friendly collaboration that WP is trying to create. Both sides seem eager and willing to descend into sniping about each other rather than just discussing the material in question. Wikipedia actually has guidelines to deal with most editorial disputes, which should allow us to avoid these personal accusations. Certainly I don't believe such accusations help anything. Do we really expect an editor to say "You got me. I'm a fanatical FG member who's plotting to subvert Wikipedia to spread our lies. Sorry, my mistake" or "That's right, I'm a Chinese agent employed to subvert the Wikipedia to spread our lies. Sorry, I'll stop doing that"? No.

Lets not worry about each other's motivations, lets stop these accusations. If someone's going against WP guidelines then it doesn't really matter why they're doing so. They will be demonstrably wrong and if they try to persist they'll look like a WP:DICK, not to mention that they'll feel like a dick too. However if we focus on the article content and keep personal snipes out of it, then we can hopefully regain a little of that pleasure that good writing and good debate should bring. Fuzzypeg ★ 22:37, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

100% in agreement with you :) This attitude is very much needed! Please stay some more! --HappyInGeneral (talk) 16:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay Fuzzy, here're the facts about the DE editor Asdfg has made:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bobby_fletcher#Editor_Asdfg12345.27s_blanking_of_facts_from_notable_source —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobby fletcher (talk • contribs) 05:27, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dragon Springs

According to this article, and this one too, Falun Gong practitioners are in the process of building a large temple complex in upstate New York. I don't know if these sources are good enough to be used in the article, but it seems that some mention of this place would be beneficial to the article. What do you guys think? Strellson (talk) 14:37, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Here are some more factual citations on the Cuddebackville Falun Gong compound. Acccording to a reporter, two deaths have occured in recently months. I have citation for the construction accident, if anyone can find the citation for the other (a practioner appearantly died from refusal of medical care) please post and help edit these facts in:

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080506/NEWS/805060313/-1/NEWS

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080219/NEWS/802190319

Bobby fletcher (talk) 05:36, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 15/5 rem paragraph from lead, yes/no?

I removed the paragraph from the lead because I thought it was extraneous detail, and that the lead should be a summary of the article, and that it was getting into the detail of nutting out what people think and why in too much space. there are four paragraphs, max, to explain the key issues about Falun Gong. Aside from this, Singer is a very controversial figure and her theories, I'm not talking her musings on Falun Gong here, are highly contested and not accepted among many scholars. Further, when it comes to Falun Gong she's a nobody, and her views are decisively fringe and radical. there are no mainstream academics and researchers of Falun Gong who support them, at all. I didn't consider so much that I was removing criticism, because the paragraph contained as much praise as criticism, but moving extraneous information to the appropriate section. There's a huge amount more to this topic than this, and spending that many words on it just seems odd. Mrund, let's hear your justification, and others may be interested to discuss also. --Asdfg12345 13:00, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I don't really see why scholarly views and scholarly views alone should feature in the lead section. If so, I think some of the text in the passage inserted by MRund would be relevant as anything else. Specifically, I believe that the lead should state what FG is, where it came from, that it was banned by the Chinese Govt following a large-scale demonstration in 1999. I know it may be problematic, but I think that because they are markedly different, there should also be a summary of the varying types of views from the different classes of third parties, namely mass-media, sinologists, "cult-ologists". Ohconfucius (talk) 02:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Concerning specific text in the lead, I believe "Two months later, the Chinese government began a large-scale persecution, including widespread propaganda, torture, illegal imprisonment, forced labour, and psychiatric abuses." is too "in your face" and should be considerably abridged for the lead. The statement is much too emotive, and too much a composite to be adequately attributed here in the lead. I would certainly remove the more subjective "large-scale persecution" and "widespread propaganda". We can substitute this whole sentence with a mention of allegations of torture and other HR abuses, and referenced to Amnesty or HRIC. I believe that for brevity and a cleaner start to the article, "Falun Gong comprise 66% of all reported torture cases in China, and at least half of the labour camp population" could be removed from the lead altogether. Even if we cannot agree to remove, I don't see that we need 7 references seeing as the comment came from the UN (if memory serves), so that one citation alone should suffice. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The lead already states what Falun Gong is and where it came from and that it the persecution started after the Zhongnanhai appeal.
I don't see how that sentence is emotive. Itis a description of the actions taken by the Chinese authorities against Falun Gong practitioners. Of course it can easily be attributed, either one reference for each point, or a bunch of references at the end. There are innumerable references for each of these points, as you would know. Was the persecution not large scale, the propaganda not widespread? Actually, according to countless sources and most that discuss the persecution in any depth, it was both these things. I don't believe these are subjective terms. All media was used to vilify Falun Gong, the whole police force was mobilised against practitioners, even the army was involved in some aspects, and a special, extra-constitutional agency was set up specifically for it. They had mass book burnings in the streets, constant news bulletins with "new findings" about the "cultic nature" of Falun Gong, stop work meetings, and so on--can we say that something encompassing every aspect of Chinese society wasn't widespread and large scale? In these circumstances, they are not subjective descriptors, like "horrible" or "vicious", or what have you.
The two facts you mention, 66% and majority forced labour, are key facts in this whole thing. It's terribly significant that Falun Gong alone are 66% of reported torture cases, when the next group down is something like 7%. And that Falun Gong alone are more than half the entire labour camp population, when the rest consist of a multitude of other groups. These are obviously very significant pieces of information.
7 citations is obviously overkill, 66% is from UN, two thirds is from US State dept., and both those sources also testify to the psychiatric and other things. I don't mind on this point.
Related to this, and something else to consider which I am sure we agree on: the persecution of Falun Gong is the primary aspect of Falun Gong's notability. There is no question of that.
The reason views such as those of Singers are not accorded much space is because they are fringe and radical views. They should be outlined in the appropriate section, but they do not constitute the majority of, or the mainstream discussion or perspective on Falun Gong.
I think the lede should actually be something like this: it should have a paragraph or half a paragraph for each topic Falun Gong involves across these pages, more or less. So that introductory paragraph, which also serves for the teachings, then a paragraph of the persecution, a paragraph Falun Gong outside mainland (something quite important and entirely overlooked so far. But don't worry, Ownby and Porter have done good studies, and Ownby presents demographics and analyses, explanation of the form Falun gong practice currently takes, (like on average they spend 13 hours per week on their activities, they are in this or that income bracket, whatever) etc.), and somewhere in there if there are miscellaneous details we could add them in--this might include also a mention of the qigong historical context. I understand that this part could be hard to do because these pages are still so much up in the air and many things still need to be nailed down. A whole lot needs to be straightened out here, across nearly all the pages. I think the lead will have to be an outline of the topic and a quick explanation of the key information covered across the wiki articles. But since we aren't even at that point, in the end it does not really seem to make sense to talk much about the lead and how we should do it, because it's going to change in the end anyway. For now, I'm happy if other editors are happy, and we can cross that bridge when we come to it.--Asdfg12345 06:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Details here really need to be cleaned up

There is a huge amount of discretion needed in this article. How many people actually believe that half of all people sentenced to "hard labor" in china are members of Falun Gong? Almost ALL prison terms in China include labor as rehabilitation. China has about 1.4 billion people in it and this article says HALF of the people serving labor sentences are FALUN GONG? That doesn't just sound ridiculous, it's also patently untrue. I'm seriously tempted to start citing sources in other articles that use Alex Jones as a source to bring attention to the less than accurate nature of this article in many places. I won't, because that would be "vandalism" and I know that Alex Jones is a habitual liar. This article is based entirely on the same kinds of inaccuracies and pro-agenda propaganda.

I'm not saying their claims should be removed; I'm saying that they should be related AS claims and not AS facts. I can sight testimonies from dozens of sources that say Falun Gong is manufacturing these stories. The crazy thing about this, is I don't particularly even like the government of the PRC, I just think that allowing slanderous and libelous language to be written as fact, without FACTS being involved, more than a little counterproductive. it feds into what I feel is an agenda to drum up hatred for the PRC (and the chinese by proxy). It also has the nasty side effect of white-washing the misdeeds of Falun Gong. Beerman5000 (talk) 08:19, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Falun Gong is a joke, 99 percent of what they say are lies. 69.137.88.55 (talk) 21:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC0

this website is designed to present things from a neutral position. I don't like this article anymore than you do, but it seems that clearing up the outlandish claims presented in this article is going to be rather difficult since so much of what Falun Gong claims is reported as truth by biased, unsuspecting, or just plain ignorant media agents. it should be noted that I don't use the term ignorant as an insult, but the whole truth of falun gong seems to have evaded quite a few people. Telling people NOT to seek medical care or risk certain damnation is an evil thing to do indeed. What is worse, the organization is clearly only telling people not to seek medical care because they see it as a 'threat' to their business. after all, if people start listening to MD's for medical advice rather than some qi-gong guru they'd pretty much be out of work since so much of their practices could be served by any number of other excercise programs. The spiritual side and promise of eternal youth, magic powers and longevity if you truly master their disciplines are what set them apart; in short, without outlandish fictional claims that have the nasty side effect of destroying people's lives and health Falun Gong would be out of business. I can't see how the label "evil cult" would be misplaced given that understanding. yet, it is not the place of this article to place such a label; it is the place of this article to relate facts and facts without regard to intentional distortions; something that this article has soundly failed to do. Beerman5000 (talk) 13:14, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Falun Gong tells more lies than the communist government.

Take a look at the report by Falun Gong on recent earth quake in China, one article on their website claims Chinese refuse to let outside help come in in order to cover up dark secret. However, as the day article was written, there are rescue team from 13 countries in China. There are so many lies like this, it is not even funny. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.137.88.55 (talk) 21:03, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

No kidding 98.240.20.14 (talk) 22:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I am a Falun Gong practitioner, I can tell you that I'm very sorry for the all the people who lost their lives, lost relatives or where injured because of the earth quake or because of human negligence. Could you please cite your sources? Thank you. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 23:00, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Look at report here [1], Falungong hosted a party to urge people quite communist party in the time of earthquake.Foxhunt99 (talk) 21:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid it's just a blog, and fails WP:RS. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Try: Peaceful Rally Attacked in New York City's Chinatown --Asdfg12345 03:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

And that source too. ;-) Ohconfucius (talk) 03:58, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah that is from Falungong news paper, of course they are going to argue they are innocent. I am not any fan of the chinese communist party, but picking a time of earthquake to have a rally like this shows some seriously lack of compassion. The Chinese government acted super fast, way better than what the US government did in Katrina. Yet, the falungong attacks the government for not responding? That is just disgusting. Even the Taiwan governemnt give Millions of dollars to Chinese government. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Foxhunt99 (talk • contribs) 16:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This is not an appropriate forum for complaints about either China or Falun Gong. This is already a very active talk page; please limit yourself to discussing editorial content (that is, what material is to be included in the article, which sources to use, etc). Unless the recent earthquake is going to be a topic of this article, discussion about it should be taken elsewhere. Fuzzypeg ★ 01:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Fuzzy, I'm a newbie, so please help me understand the rules. Supposed I am a reporter working for a newspaper, and I post/promote articles from that newspaper - is that a violation of Wikipedia's policy? Like self-publication? Thanks!

Bobby fletcher (talk) 05:41, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

No it's not a violation of the rules, however Wikipedia does have warnings around this. Read the conflict of interest and reliable source guidelines for more info. Fuzzypeg ★ 04:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Number of external links

Ohconfucius, wasn't you who come up with the idea that we should limit the number of external links? Please let us know what do you think now about this issue, so I can start collecting links and be in an agreement on this point with you. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 16:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:EL states that external links should be kept to a minimum.

I also do not believe there should be a crude 'equality in number of links' criteria as to what to include. I also don't see why they should be categorised as "critical sites" and "other sites", but apparently that was the consensus. In order to avoid running foul of WP:UNDUE, the number of critical links should by rights exceed the number of those eulogising, but I won't develop this any further. I may not necessarily agree to what became of the pared down list, but for a while there was calm on those waters. However, somewhere along the way, a FG editor removed the Asia Times link as "an attack piece", which could be interpreted as "I don't agree with it". I have examined both: I consider that Rick Ross a rather comprehensive resource of press cuttings which are probably only rivalled by CESNUR; the Asia Times article should be kept because it is a long and detailed criticism of the Falun Gong phenomenon and actions which cannot be reflected in the article because of its length - All the more important seeing that most of the criticisms of FG have been relegated to a 'third party view' article.

I certainly object most strongly to your threat to inundate this article with additional links - I have no doubt in what quantities and what content these links will include. ;-) Any attempt to restore the external list to its former overpopulated state will be resisted. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Why would you consider things that come from me a threat? Am I your enemy? If so why? Have you ever heard of balanced according to WP:Undue? We are building an encyclopedia after all which should contain all relevant views. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 13:32, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I have just replaced the Rick Ross link with CESNUR. Ohconfucius (talk) 02:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Distortion of cited references

An accurate representation of information from references is the foundation of Wikipedia. This is not done in some cases for this article. I relate here one example: "An extra-constitutional body, the '6-10 Office' was created to 'oversee the terror campaign,'[43] ..."

There is in fact no report or any claim by a credible source for the existence of such an organization. The cited reference, an article in Forbes, mentions the "6-10 Office" as an allegation made by some Falungong "survivors." As even the Forbes article includes no other source, this claim of "extra-constitutional body" that "oversee[s] the terror campaign" cannot be independently verified. Yet, the prominent placement of the above statement in the section titled "The persecution" and its wording clearly misrepresents its claim as a fact or at the very least as the result of some reputable investigation when it could just as likely be the ravings of some cultist lunatics fabricating stories to harm the reputation of the PRC government. Statements like these border on slander, especially given the inescapable similarity of the alleged "6-10 Office," if it exists, to other infamous organizations like the Nazis Gestapo and the Soviet NKVD.

I have not read all the cited references, but I wonder how many other statements in the article are opinions from editorials or even insubstantiated sources masquerading as facts. It is hard to judge whether this article has unacceptable pro or anti-Falungong tilt, but it is not hard to find inaccuracies in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.7.239.91 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Balance

The article extensively discusses the various alleged persecutions that the Falungong practitioners have experienced under the Chinese government. However, no where in the article is the anti-government activities of the Falungong mentioned. In addition to the persistent protests that disrupt Chinese diplomatic functions throughout the world, the Falungong controls through its followers numerous media outlets that have openly and aggresively attacked the government of China, including a disruption of a joint news conference by President George Bush and President Hu Jintao. Although these are not official organizations of the Falungong, their extensive reach and their social impact should be discussed as an important factor in the Chinese government's decision to outlaw Falungong. Furthermore, the extremely hostile attitude taken by these self-proclaimed neutral media outlets toward the Chinese government, their repeated attacks and calls for the destruction of the Chinese Communist Party, and the fact that no official from Falungong has called a stop to these deeply polarizing political stances by the most influential publication associated with the Falungong at least brings to question that Falungong is a simple religious movement and not, as the Chinese government accuses, an act of sedition orchestrated by some under the guise of religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.7.239.91 (talk • contribs)

All these activities started to take place only after the Chinese Communist Party started imprisoning and torturing Falun Gong practitioners to death for their peaceful beliefs. They are also all peaceful responses. Right and wrong has not been clearer. In terms of the article, there is a lot more work to do on it. If you would like to contribute, I would suggest reading the core wikipedia policies WP:NPOV, WP:V, WP:OR, creating an account, and drinking a bottle of good will.--Asdfg12345 22:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

After i read this unsigned post just now, i felt the strong urge to show you guys what it reminded me of: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5849499994484879153&q=ewige+jude&ei=jPY-SK-eD5zG2wLE6s3pAw&hl=en

don't get this the wrong way... i just want you guys to understand that it is not possible to just simply go ahead and torture and kill people and put them in labor camps and exterminate them. You need prejudices to justiify it, and as stupid as it sounds simple prejudices like these just now are totaly sufficiant... i mean they where sufficant for Hitler and Nero anyway.

--Hoerth (talk) 18:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Asdfg, actually that's incorrect. The Falun Gong undertook anti-government activities such as protests, which caused the CCP government to ban Falun Gong and begin its persecution. Intranetusa (talk) 20:22, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

In China, it is every citizen's right to appeal to the government. All they did was exercise their constitutional right to appeal; they did so peacefully, seeking redress for illegal beatings and imprisonment. Do you really regard that an anti-government activity warranting a brutal persecution (which most members of the politburo at that time even, did not)?--Asdfg12345 00:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Controversiess

Someone should add controversies regarding his:

1. His anti-homosexual comments
2. His comments on how people have race gods, and interracial relationships are immoral
also claims divinity from God(s)

Intranetusa (talk) 20:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It would be original research for us to call whatever aspect of Falun Gong controversial. Mention of the subjects you raised above, as far as I am aware, is less than half a percent of the total teachings; subjects should be covered proportionally. --Asdfg12345 00:48, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

True, but those opinions are still expressed by the founder and the most important person of the religion, Li Hongzhi. Falun Gong as a whole and the average adherent may not be as controversial, but Li Hongzhi still portrays the characteristics of a manipulative leader. He has claimed all of the things above, and claimed he has mystical powers given to him by God. I believe he at least deserves some criticism in this section because he is still the most influential figure as the founder.

Btw, I reverted it my original edit. Plz don't delete the entire criticism section, but feel free to alter it to make it balance out as neutral and valid criticism. Intranetusa (talk) 02:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, you aren't allowed to add unsourced content. Secondly, the view that Li Hongzhi is a "manipulative leader" is a fringe theory in the literature on Falun Gong. That means that it is not backed up by academics who research Falun Gong, for example, two of the most prominent are David Ownby and Benjamin Penny, and neither of them subscribe to this view. It is not part of mainstream discourse of Falun Gong. It was first part of the propaganda campaign used to persecute the practice, and it has not really been picked up in the west; only among "cult-busters", who are not part of mainstream academia. In the literature, this language is mostly seen as an excuse the CCP made up to lock up and torture practitioners. There are heaps of journal articles which talk about this.

Secondly, you have put Academic views and third party views under the Controversial heading, and you have quoted the teachings of Falun Gong way out of context, disproportionate to their space within the teachings themselves, you have no sources, and you have said they are controversial without a source. The fact is, even if you find a source, these are all still fringe theories; the serious people who research Falun Gong do not use this kind of sensationalist language. You might want to look up David Ownby's new book on Falun Gong called "Falun Gong and the future of China". This is a complex topic. You may feel that you are making a valuable contribution, but you seem largely unaware of this subject based on these edits.

I am unable to undo them because I refuse to do more than one revert per day. But you have violated core wikipedia content policies such as WP:V, WP:UNDUE, WP:OR. I don't feel that this is a productive way to contribute. The pages are still 'under construction', so to speak, and I believe, like you, that what people consider to be Li's more outlandish comments be properly treated, in accordance with their space among both Falun Gong texts and third party texts. But at the moment that's not what you have done. Please read the above policies. If you have access to academic journals, I am able to provide some names of authors for your consideration. There are big problems with the edits you have made--for an example of what I mean, see here and here. I hope you will consider what I have just written.--Asdfg12345 02:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The "cult" label which you are talking about here was first used by the CCP in 1999 as an excuse for its persecution. In the first few years after the onset of the persecution, some so called cult critics repeated CCP propaganda without knowing independently studying the facts. The International community, The academic community and All major Human Rights organizations have strongly condemned such claims made by the CCP. The last statement in the intro is at best a fringe opinion and must be presented with sufficient background in the third party section. Dilip rajeev (talk) 03:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted certain recent changes - reasons - WP:OR and WP:UNDUE. Picking out random statements from the teachings and presenting them as "controversies" is not encyclopedic. As Asdfg pointed out it is extremely disproportionate in comparison to the space the topics occupy in the teachings. Further it is a user's OR that the statements are somehow "controversies" - not what reliable 3rd party sources have stated. Dilip rajeev (talk) 03:44, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

At this stage it's mainly this: "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed." -- though beyond that there are other issues remain in terms of context, quality of the sources, undue etc.. I don't think these things should be excluded, but addressed appropriately--Asdfg12345 07:19, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

@Asdfg12345

I have added the sources for my information - BBC and New York Times. Now there shouldn't be any reasons to delete the changes. And these are not random statements. If the pope had worked his entire life to help people, but then said "let's exterminate all the Jews," would that be a random statement that doesn't deserves attention? These statements are important because they represent the extremist views of the leader of the Falun Gong. You can't ignore the valid criticisms leveled at this guy. Intranetusa (talk) 16:51, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

see comment below. By the way, that's a vile and misleading comparison. You ought to retract it and apologise. Li Hongzhi saying that certain sexual practices are immoral, or metaphysical this or that about gods, aliens, beings in other dimensions, souls correspondings to colours, reincarnation, and whatever else, is completely different from advocating any kind of violence or hatred. You should be clear on this. There is not a single case of a Falun Gong practitioner responding to the persecution with violence. It's transparently a peaceful practice, through and through. Many practitioners have friends who are homosexual. They don't push their beliefs on people, and don't care that they are gay. These are metaphysical, not worldly concerns. There's also no concept of leaders in Falun Gong. Li founded the practice and publishes his writings and speeches on the internet; he holds definitional power, but he doesn't give orders. That's it, really. I agree with you that criticisms, valid or not, shouldn't be ignored. I thought of a good way of moving forward below.--Asdfg12345 00:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

@Dilip

Please don't play the CCP card. We all know they brutalize and oppress the Falun Gong. But just because the CCP oppresses them, doesn't mean they're not controversial. Being the victims of communist oppression doesn't give them a free ride and make them immune to criticism. Various western organizations (non-CCP of course) have branded the Falun Gong as a cult, and for good reason too. The criticisms I inputed is hardly a fringe viewpoint, many academics have leveled relevant claims that the FG is a cult. You can't blame the commies for everything.

If you read the criticisms leveled at Li Hongzhi for his statements (anti-mixed race, anti-gay, alien conspiracy), then yes he displays all the characteristics of a cult leader. These statements are probably on the level of what Scientologists believe. All I am doing is ensuing there isn't a double standard. If you want to remove all criticisms of the Falun Gong because you support them, then do the same for Scientology. Intranetusa (talk) 16:47, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

See, there is a section on 3rd party views and the "cult" label issue is discussed at length there. This is an encyclopaedic article - not about praise vs criticism. How much sense would it make to pull out a couple of quotes out of context from a Buddhist work and put it in an article on Buddhism as "controversies"? Have you read those controversial statements you talk about in the context of the teachings? For whatever info we add to the article, wiki policies require 3rd party sources and that the view being pushed is not a fringe opinion. Remember that all Falun Dafa teachings are available for anyone to read on falundafa.org - there is no comparison here with things like scientology or anything.

For instance look at the summary of the 3rd party views section - a random statement by a judge has been pulled out and used as summary for an entire article.

There are many positive statments made too - why not use anyone of them instead? For instance a Resolution passed by the Massachusetts House of Representatives states:

" the great compassion and tolerance demonstrated by Falun Dafa practitioners in upholding the principles of their practice under the most severe environment had touched the hearts of people throughout the city, state, nation and world"

.. why not use that instead of that particular statement of a judge? We cant use either as summarry because this is an encyclopeadia - not a tabloid .

We have to present things in an encyclopeadic manner - not like "hey this line sounds controversial to me.. let me add it to the article with my own commentary." Editing in such a manner borders on vandalism.

Dilip rajeev (talk) 20:27, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

A side note, when checking one of the citation's from Li Hongzhi with google this is what showed up: [2] It's quite interesting to see how people like to come up with something and then attribute it to Li Hongzhi, sometimes it's just plainly out of the context and sometimes they write their own. --HappyInGeneral (talk) 21:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

@Dilip rajeev It's interesting you mention encyclopedia, because all you've done is throw lavish praises on this organization and its founder. What you're doing is turning this encyclopedia article into a support group. That is in direct violation of wikipedia policies.

Furthermore you said: "The sources you talk about do not support the content you are trying to add. See talk discussion. Using TW" If you even bothered to go to the links I provided, you would've seen that I took the information directly from BBC and the NY Times. Intranetusa (talk) 19:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

@Happy in General, I went to the link you provided, and it does say the Li Hongzhi said it. Read my sources in the NY Times article and BBC. Li Honzhi's statements are DIRECTLY QUOTED from various speeches he's given. I've cited all of my sources in order to support valid criticisms. Turning this article into a FG praise group is against the entire point of an encyclopedia article. Intranetusa (talk) 19:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello Intranetusa, I'm sorry perhaps I did not give all the details:

All teachings of Li Hongzhi are online either on ClearWisdom.net, either on FalunDafa.org and thus indexed by google.
So when you quote him and the text of the quote can be found only on Rick Ross [3] that means that it is not a quote from Li Hongzhi but just a quote from Rick Ross's website, even if the article posted on Rick Ross's website claims that it is Li Hongzhi's.

Best --HappyInGeneral (talk) 10:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested approach for 'controversial' teachings

I think I thought of a good idea to approach this issue. We should make a section about this in the teachings page. The commentary of news organisations and scholars can be added, around these aspects of the teachings that have attracted particular attention, derision, or whatever (sexuality, race, aliens). I think this would be a good way to approach it for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, this is not much related to the question of whether Falun Gong is a cult, I don't think. It may depend how you define that word, but I think when you say the word cult you are talking about someone ripping people off money, depriving them of their freedom, deceiving them, basically doing bad things to people, more or less. Falun Gong has nothing to do with this. Li Hongzhi publishes his writing on the internet and anyone who wants to can read it and believe it or not. The exercises are also freely practiced. Objectively, it's a set of exercises with a spiritual component; no membership, no heirarchy, no organisation, no money, everything voluntary.

Secondly, two things: generally, the field of 'cultic studies' is not part of mainstream academia. It's very much looked down upon, and real scholars don't do that work. The whole discipline is fringe. Also, the view that Falun Gong is a cult is even more fringe in Falun Gong literature. I am not talking about 1000 word newspaper articles that go for vague and sensationalist remarks, or outright ill-intentioned distortions to make a splash, but studies of Falun Gong from academics who have made it their job to research the issue. This is simply not how they approach the problem. David Ownby says it was a red herring from the beginning.

The other side to the cultic issue, of course, is that it's part of the propaganda campaign, and not to mention this in the same breath is an omission. And I am not just talking about the CCP, but western academics become implicated in the CCP's brutal policies when they engage in this discourse (if you read the 'cult label as a tool of margianilisation' on other pages you will see what I mean)/ The apparently controversial nature of some of Li's teachings can naturally be separated from the supposed cultic nature of Falun Gong, without any loss of meaning. Li has even talked about the alien subject in a Time interview, but that doesn't mean he does bad things to people or tries to harm others with underhanded means. The cultic question is one of particular behavioural or other things that people do--on this, no one has anything on Falun Gong, because all the people that practice it do is perform exercises and read books; they don't pay any money, they don't cut themself from society, they hold down their jobs, live in nuclear families, etc. etc.. The teaching question is simply about what Li has said, and how people have reacted to it. I agree that it needs attention, but you will notice that these pages are chronically neglected, and no one has consistently put in a lot of time to make a comprehensive go at them.

Okay, that's my concrete suggestion then a bit of a longwinded explanation of the thinking behind it. If anyone feels they can't take some of those specific points at face value, let me know and I might be able to refer to a good source. Just one more practical suggestion. I appreciate Intranetusa's going to the trouble, but I got the feeling that a lot of that was just c&p from the BBC or NYT. We can't do that. In particular, if it wasn't, it needs to be in a neutral and plainly descriptive tone. We don't put aspersions and value judgements into sentences, as journalists often have wont to do. Journalists can write in a smarmy, self-important way, make wise-cracks, and dish out vague ridicule etc., as long as their editors okay it. But as an encyclopedia, we have to keep a passive, neutral voice. So this would be introducing the idea that Li has made these statements and how people have reacted. By the way, just a quick point, if some have directly linked controversial teachings with the cultic claim, that should also be addressed. The things I said before were more overall points. I'm saying that the cultic issue and the controversial teachings issue are sufficiently separate to deal with separately on wiki, but if some newspapers want to make that link, it can be mentioned--also though that x,y and z scholars do not agree, perhaps.

I can't do anything more on this for about another 5 days, then I would love to help construct this section. I think it's an important addition, to survey the field here and present a couple of hundred word summary.--Asdfg12345 00:27, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The page is locked, but no one has engaged with this discussion. Martin, this is forming part of a pattern of behaviour for you on these pages. I find it troubling. I believe the disputed texts should be removed to make room for discussion. This kind of nasty edit bickering is so counterproductive in so many ways. I think the original idea contains elements of legitimacy, but the execution was hasty, to say the least. In fact, I've just looked at the offending text and it's blatant copy and paste. This is copyright violation. I'm leaving a note on the admin's page, and I've just put a tag and note below. I assume you are all adults, I think you should behave that way and be prepared, together, to discuss the changes on the page and the best way to approach this subject. For now I'm informing the admin who locked it of the copyright violations, which should duly be removed, and would like to encourage intelligent discussion. Just a note, NYT's comments on the teachings are interesting, but the fact is that scholars are considered more reliable sources; even if it were not repeating verbatim, giving so much weight to one article and its views violates WP:UNDUE. I gave a suggestion for how to approach this, above. --Asdfg12345 08:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

"Li Hongzhi publishes his writing on the internet and anyone who wants to can read it and believe it or not. The exercises are also freely practiced. Objectively, it's a set of exercises with a spiritual component; no membership, no heirarchy, no organisation, no money, everything voluntary."

Then I'd like to know how Li Hongzhi was able to afford million dollar mansions in New York. The FG may not be a cult in general, *but its founder, Li, has benefited monetarily and politically from the organization. Couple that with his fringe viewpoints would *make him a cult leader. And the FG does have a basic organization - the FG funded and created the NTDTV news organization.

"In fact, I've just looked at the offending text and it's blatant copy and paste. This is copyright violation."

Yes, I only C&Ped as a temporary solution. My intention was to create a criticism section in the FG page. This just means I will *have to summarize the criticisms so it no longer in copyright violation.

"And I am not just talking about the CCP, but western academics become implicated in the CCP's brutal policies when they engage in this discourse (if you read the 'cult label as a tool of margianilisation' on other pages you will see what I mean)"

Are you suggesting anyone who thinks the FG is a cult is in league with the brutal communist oppression? Or do you mean others *suggest that?

"The apparently controversial nature of some of Li's teachings...but that doesn't mean he does bad things to people or tries to harm others with underhanded means."

So you have no problem with him calling gays and mixed-race people the tools of the devil? The problem is that that type of hate *speech is the same as those given by Hitler during his rise to power - and ironic too because everyone said Hitler's speeches were *harmless and would never act *out his hatred. Li Hongzhi's hate speech is what breeds genocidal maniacs when they come into power.

Intranetusa (talk) 20:11, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for your comments. I would not like to get into an argument with you, so please let me know if you feel I have adopted a standoffish or combative tone. I would just like to explain my understanding to you. I'm not aware of a million dollar mansion in NY. I saw a photo once, a news crew was interviewing him in a fairly average looking apartment in Flushing. In 1999 WSJ ran an article about how he apparently got a $500,000 house in Manhattan, but a pracititioner in the U.S. had bought it for him and tricked his wife, who didn't understand english, into signing the deed. They refused it and he took the house back. I don't know where he lives now; maybe he lives in a big mansion with a big car and eats out every night? I don't know, and I guess I don't really care. He sold millions of books and audiotapes in China, there's royalties involved in that, as you might imagine. I'm making a bit of a rhetorical point here; if you read the persecution page, or read Ian Johnson's and others' comments, Li didn't end up making much despite all that in China. The books were all banned in '96, which is when it really took off in popularity. All the stuff after that was bootleg, and he said that's fine in his lectures. People even hand copied them for the poor farmers, he said that's fine, it's the same. He lives on royalties from book sales etc. though. Plenty of people make a living from writing books. I assume you do not have a problem with the vocation of authorship, but merely that his book treats spiritual subjects, and alleges things that you do not believe to be true. I'd only say again that this isn't again any laws, and people can write what they want. If it doesn't harm others, that should be allowed. People write about fairy tales and trolls and magical things all the time. As far as you are concerned, Li's works are no more than that, right? They are at least as benign. It certainly doesn't make him a cult leader. But I'm still not clear on precisely what you mean by that. Before using the term again, please define what you mean by it as clearly as you can. Just as a personal note, for myself, I would not issue such harsh criticisms and write as though I knew a subject well unless I had really looked into it. I assume you haven't read the core book of Falun Gong, Zhuan Falun, or really tried to look into it. You have seen some of these apparently controversial teachings, then what some news articles have said. Is that what 100 million people in China got up early every morning for to do exercises? I'd say that if you want to understand the topic you might consider reading the book for yourself and seeing what it's on about. Perhaps at the moment you have formed hasty judgements based on limited information. Anyway, I think this point is just too simple, if he wanted money he could get it easily, why wouldn't he just ask everyone to give me $1 or $10, heck, why not $100?? Why wouldn't he just post on the internet his bank account and ask for donations, watch the money flow in! If he was keen for money, why not just do that? It'd be much simpler. The books are all on the internet for free download, anyway.

Falun Gong practitioners founded NTDTV, Falun Gong didn't found NTDTV. A Falun Gong practitioner in Berlin has no connection to a Falun Gong practitioner in Argentina. You can be on an island and practice Falun Gong all the same. You just do the exercises and read the books, that's practicing Falun Gong. Some practitioners got together in different places and did these things in response to the persecution. Those are their individual actions. The extent of the organisation you will find is on falundafa.org, where people can put their locations, phone numbers and names. So if I move somewhere, I can email the website and tell them I do the exercises at this certain park at this time each week, and read the book at this time, and they can load it on there, so when other people visit the website they will know there is a practice on and such and such time at X place, and a phone number to contact. It's as simple as that really. Activities like protests against the persecution are funded and organised on a local level also, just whatever people can come up with. Call it an organisation if you like, but there's no one in charge, and people just do things as they see fit, discussing it locally and doing it locally. There are no orders or heirarchy involved. There's certainly no money changing hands, that's stipulated clearly in Zhuan Falun.

I wonder if you read the sections I had hyperlinked above; these outline some of the scholarly work about the cult label and how it has been used to margianilise and persecute Falun Gong practitioners in China. I would direct you there to see what I mean. To answer directly, I was saying others have said that, you'll see what I mean on the respective pages. I would find it helpful whether you indicated to me whether you had read those sections or not. At least then I wouldn't bother you by suggesting it again.

Final point. He never said that homosexuals and mixed-race people are the tool of the devil. I see that you feel quite hostile on this point. Despite that, I think it's important to be respectful of other people, and at least maintain a civil tone. I can tell you that Falun Gong is founded on moral teachings, of truthfulness, compassion, and forbearance. It is about giving up attachments and looking within oneself when coming across difficulties. It is a deeply moral practice, before whatever else. As I say, the questions of homosexuality and mixed-race are metaphysical. He is claiming that modern values are mixed up, that sex outside of heterosexual marriage is immoral. He's allowed to think that, isn't he? People are allowed to believe it, aren't they? Have they done wrong by virtue of that? There is no ill-will or hatred towards any group, don't get confused. The practice is about treating all sentient beings with compassion, no matter what race, sexual orientation, religious belief. Several close friends who I see regularly are homosexual. If Li taught me to hate them, do you think I would be such close friends with them? Why would I hang out with them? Why wouldn't I cut them off, if that's how I felt? Also, heaps of Chinese and westerns are married, for example, among Falun Gong practitioners. There's no big deal. Where's the hatred? As I say, these are metaphysical positions, not worldly passions. There's an enourmous difference. I can't really do anything if you don't want to find out anything further, and have just stubbornly adopted a set of views based on a small amount of information. You should know that Falun Gong is a peaceful practice being unfairly persecuted. That much you should be able to take at face value, notwithstanding your disagreement with some of Li's comments.

I read your comment below. Can I please request that you address the long note I wrote previously, about how this topic of controversial teachings might be approached. Declaring that you will simply paraphrase the disputed text and reinsert it... I mean, we are supposed to work together and talk about how to approach the subject, and reach a consensus. But just declaring what you're going to do does not seem to be doing that, do you know what I mean? Please let me know if you think I am saying something unreasonable here. I don't want to repeat how I think it should be approached, as it's all in the discussion above. I hope you could read it again and let me know what you think. As a suggestion, you may consider weighing up the merits of it, and explaining the reasoning behind your thinking, as I have tried to do for you. If you would like me to substantiate any of my remarks with references to sources, I would be happy to do so. I thought about that long remark before I wrote it, I didn't just make up any old thing. Sorry this note has ended up quite long. I wanted to address your concerns as best I could. I am interested to work cooperatively, rather than combatively. I hope this has been of some benefit. Thanks.--Asdfg12345 21:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Hello, thanks for the response. Your response length is fine, and I'll try to address your concerns. I too wish to solve this issue cooperatively and prevent an edit war or NOI conflict. My responses to your comments and my thoughts on the subject is such:

"Li didn't end up making much despite all that in China...people even hand copied them for the poor farmers, he said that's fine, it's the same."

Why did Mao Zedong hand out his little red book for free? Was he trying to profit as well? Li supporting the handing out of free books just means he is able to spread his ideology faster, increasing support and power for his movement. In the end, Li is a powerful man with a large following, many zealous supporters, and a comfortable home in the states.

"Is that what 100 million people in China got up early every morning for to do exercises? I'd say that if you want to understand the topic you might consider reading the book for yourself and seeing what it's on about. Perhaps at the moment you have formed hasty judgements based on limited information."

First, they're not all Falun Gong followers. Second, they're practicing FG, they're qigong and taichi, martial arts exercises that dates back thousands of years. Just because Li Hongzhi copied ideas from other religions and practices and injected them into FG doesn't give him monopoly over them. As for my limited information, that may be true, but the same applies for you as well. You don't learn about criticisms and conflicting thoughts if all you read is pro-FG books that support the practice - that would be just preaching to the choir.

"I'd only say again that this isn't again any laws, and people can write what they want. If it doesn't harm others, that should be allowed. People write about fairy tales and trolls and magical things all the time. As far as you are concerned, Li's works are no more than that, right? They are at least as benign."

Of course, he can write whatever he want. But when he tries pass off intolerance and fictional tales as a religious movement, and then guise it under elements copied from eastern religions...that's called a cult. Of course, Li Hongzhi, like L Ron Hubbard, can write and say whatever he wants because it's their right to do so. But the public does deserve to know their fringe viewpoints bordering on cultism.

Now, I very well realize the most FG do not support his fringe views - just like how many Scientologists don't follow Hubbard's ideas of DC-8 space aliens, or Jews following the extremist portions of the Torah. But that just means the religion as a whole has become legitimate, but the founder is still a manipulative cult leader. Those under his direct influence and continue to follow him would be within the boundaries of a cult.

"scholarly work about the cult label and how it has been used to margianilise and persecute Falun Gong practitioners in China."

Again, you're basically saying that because we call it a cult, we're justifying its persecution. Quite the contrary. I believe Li Hongzhi is a cult leader, and the FG may be a cult. However, the CCP oppression is still unjustified and they deserve civil rights. CCP oppression isn't a justification in saying that the FG should be immune from criticism.

"I can tell you that Falun Gong is founded on moral teachings, of truthfulness, compassion, and forbearance."

Of course it does. So does Scientology. But does that make up for Scientology's crazy rants by its founder? Islam and Christianity also teaches love and truth - but does that stop fringe elements from going on jihads and crusades? The Falun Gong has compassion and forbearance because it's essentially a melding of Buddhist, Confucianist, Taoist, etc teachings. The problem here is that Li Hongzhi, basically just copied the ideas of other religions, combined them into Falun Gong, and is now profiting from it. What's worse is his cult rantings of intolerance and hatred.

In his references to mixed race individuals and homosexuality, Li makes reference to them being the spawn of a period of the end of the world. So yes, he is basically saying they are devil-spawns responsible for the collapse of society. If you read the quotes in the link I have provided, it specifically references his argument of how each race has their own race gods, and that interracial marriage creates children that will go to hell "without his intervention." If you still doubt Li said this, you can google it and come up with numerous results.

"I can't really do anything if you don't want to find out anything further, and have just stubbornly adopted a set of views based on a small amount of information. You should know that Falun Gong is a peaceful practice being unfairly persecuted."

And you seem to stubbornly defends Li and his cult status. Learning about something does not mean blindly believing and supporting all of its elements. And again, you're bringing up the CCP oppression as if it's the result of our criticism, so I'll reiterate my position. Like it or not, Li Honzhi is a cult leader. Nonetheless, even cult leaders and his followers deserve civil rights and the CCP crackdown is unjustified.

In the end, what I'm proposing is fairness. If an organization is controversial, yet the page contains only positive articles that support it, would be POV. The current controversies section is obviously insufficient and seems edited by those who want to hide the criticisms. All I'm saying is have a section that documents controversies on its founder - such as Li's cult like status and his intolerant remarks.

I don't believe that's too much to ask. I'll reorganize the proposed section and post it here. We can later discuss what to include and/or omit. I'll work with you and others here to resolve this issue.

Thanks Intranetusa (talk) 02:36, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I will just write here what corresponds to the article. I won't respond to your comments about Falun Gong, but I will address those on your user talk page. Here we can keep it very business-like and professional (you should read that page, it's very good). Okay, well I will just put these in point form

the view that Falun Gong is a cult is not mainstream. It's a fringe view. I say this because it is not the way academics who research Falun Gong approach it, they disagree, and others say it is just a political label", e.g.: "By applying the label and embracing theories that posit passive followers under the mental control of a dangerous leader, the government can aggressively destroy the group, all the while claiming to be protecting religious freedom. In this respect, the Western Anti-Cult Movement has served, unwittingly or not, as a lackey in the party's efforts to maintain its political dominance." -- overall, the fringe view aspect means that we do not mention it as though it is a mainstream view; we say that certain people have this view, and this is how mainstream people think of it. I suggested you read a few sections on those other pages, to see what I mean. Basically, the label was first used to try to give ground to a baseless persecution of the practice, and later it was taken up outside China by some "cult-busters". They don't have academic credentials, and their views aren't part of mainstream academia on Falun Gong.
the teachings you point out (about sexuality, races, aliens, not sure what else) form between .5% and 1% of the teachings. I estimate that there are about 1500 pages of Li Hongzhi's teachings on the internet, and I estimate that between 5 and 10 of them deal with these topics. So in Falun Gong texts, these aren't any kind of focus, they seem to be mentioned in passing more-or-less. They aren't defining characteristics of what Falun Gong teaches. In normal circumstances, since wikipedia can't cover everything, minor things would just not be mentioned in wikipedia articles, because there would be no point, given the hundreds of topics covered in all the lectures, to pick out a few certain ones, however,
because these things have attracted criticism or attention, we can mention them in that context. This still goes with caveats, such as they are not definitive aspects of Falun Gong, that mainstream scholars do not find these important aspects of Falun Gong teachings and do not think Falun Gong is focused on these topics. There are sources for all those points. It also means we don't accord undue space or emphasis to these, thereby misrepresenting the general body of scholarly literature, and Falun Gong. I would suggest having an "Eccentric or controversial teachings" section on the teachings page, or having a "Miscellaneous teachings" section on the teachings page, where these things might be covered in a couple of hundred words. I might even be able to do that within the next 12-14 hours.
A final point; I will look at the NYT source again more closely, but unless it says that these are controversial, or specifically describes them in a certain way, we can't simply quote what they say and put it in the controversial section--do you know what I mean? I mean that it's original research to do that. Unless a source said X we can't say or make out that a source said X. So if all the NYT article did is give an imaginative depiction of these elements of the teachings that you find controversial, it's kinda useless, because it doesn't support them being controversial, it just refers to them. --Asdfg12345 02:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I was just trying to do this now, but I got stuck. The proposition I made earlier doesn't make sense, and I think there is some policy against channeling POVs through names for sections. Calling it "controversial and eccentric teachings" doesn't make sense, because why not have a section called "good and fun teachings" ?? People reading it would be like "uhh... what is this?", and I think this concept is similar. I read the whole article, and I can see where you get some of your ideas. I mean, it's an interesting take on the thing. The guy obviously think he's got Falun Gong figured out after he downloaded a few of the books off the internet and flipped through them, pulling out the parts he thought were sensational. That's his busines, I guess. Here, we are supposed to present things like an encyclopedia. We don't go in for sensationalist angles, we can't. Smith doesn't seem to say too much concrete about Falun Gong that isn't already covered by Falun Gong itself. Most of the things he refers to are in the teachings, but as I say they come to probably less than one percent. It would be misleading and misrepresentative to give a big airing to one article, and this author's views, on Falun Gong. If he built an argument or said something coherent, I think we'd be able to make use of it. In particular, if there were a few that said similar things, like "Falun Gong is a cult because of ..." or "The teachings of Falun Gong are controversial because aliens don't exist and blah ..." -- perhaps that would be useful. Because then we could report that so and so have said they disagree with Li's theories about aliens, or whatever. In particular, we can't say anything sources don't say, so having a section "controversial teachings" is definitely out--it would be original research. At the moment, it's like we have nothing to go on. He's just repeated some of Li's ideas that he's taken a fancy to, but not added much apart. I just don't know what we are suppoed to take from that. --Asdfg12345 15:11, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] copyvio on page

Resolved. Copyvio removed. El_C 09:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

{{editprotected}} Explanation for requesting edit of protected article: copyvio, the text in question, is copy and paste from NYT. There is also a copy and paste from a BBC kind of blog, not a reliable source anyway, also c&p job, violating copyright. The text should be removed.--Asdfg12345 08:54, 7 June 2008 (UTC) The URLs to compare the text to are those added as references. Admin should also consider removing the final paragraph of the lede, added by the same user who introduced the copyright violations, until editors can discuss the article together and reach a consensus. The second point is merely advisory, the first has to be done per WP:COPYVIO.--Asdfg12345 08:57, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. El_C 09:02, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I will summarize the criticisms so it no longer in copyright violation when this issue is resolved. Intranetusa (talk) 20:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

In the last paragraph above I responded to this. Just briefly again, I request that you consider my long, original note about how to approach the subject above. Please let me know what you think of that approach. --Asdfg12345 21:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)