Talk:Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)

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[edit] Rewrite

I recently rewrote much of this article in my sandbox and moved it over to the mainspace. It's not quite finished yet; I have to expand the "Concept and creation" and "Characterization" sections a bit more. However, I have purged most of the plot summary, replacing the "Character history" with a more out-of-universe "Appearances" section. I also removed some of the images which didn't offer much critical commentary on the character other than "here's another picture of her". Most of the material I've deleted has been moved to the Buffyverse wiki, so if you want to access the old article, it's more or less all over there.  Paul  730 03:43, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

As I've watched Paul whip this article into much more emaculate shape, it dawned on me while reading some of the material that the full name "Faith Lehane" is not what the character started with. Apparently, "Lehane" is something that was added for the video game and then subsequently stuck with the character afterward. So, really, shouldn't the article be "Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)" or "Faith (Buffyverse)"--personally, I get kind of twitchy with the last one because "Buffyverse" is a fan term, but that to has become a common place for the series. Anyway, back to the name. When I did a Google News and Google Scholar search for "Faith Lehane"--as searching plain ol' "Google" will pick up fansites and other biased entertainment websites, while news and scholarly sources are typically ones that establish notability and have more editorial oversight and neutrality--I discovered that "Faith Lehane" doesn't show up anywhere: Google News and Google Scholar. When I did the same searches but with "Faith - Buffy the Vampire Slayer" as the key word, I actually found hits for the character. To me, it's clear that "Faith" is the most commonly used name associated with the character for this series, even though she has since been given a last name. I think the issue is one that has been plaguing lots of Buffy related articles, and that's fans--and this isn't anything negative against fans, because I'm the same way with my favorite shows--place importance on things that are generally unimportant outside of the fandome. The characters of Conner and Lorne aren't listed under their "full names", because "Conner and Lorne" is how the characters are more commonly associated outside of the fictional material. I think we are placing undue weight on the in-universe material, when we should be placing it the real world concept. This is the same reason why Jason Voorhees is not listed as "Jason Elias Voorhees", or Michael Myers isn't listed as "Michael Aubry Myers", because those middle names are not what the characters are known by away from the fiction material. Jabba the Hutt has a full name in the IU world, but his article is still "Jabba the Hutt". There are plenty of other examples, but I think there seems to be a current trend to keep articles "up-to-date" with their topics, which is not what Wikipedia is for. It isn't a current events website. Now, no one take this as I'm saying we shouldn't mention her "full" name in the article, because I think that it's part of that character and certainly deserves mentioning. I just believe that it shouldn't dictate the title of the article. To the outside world, she's simply known as the Slayer "Faith". Spike isn't William the Bloody, though the redirection exists because fans of the show might actually search for him under that name.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The character in the show is called Faith, and that's all she's called. The fact that Whedon gave her a surname some time later for a roleplaying game doesn't change that, although it's worth noting somewhere in the article. Hobson 00:00, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Currently, the explaination of her surname is a footnote, which can be found by clicking the "A" next to the name in the lead.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:04, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I suggest the intro should read "Faith is a a fictional character created by Joss Whedon for the television series Buffy the Vampire Slayer." Perhaps the text currently in the footnote could then be added to the end of the Concept and Creation section?Hobson
I could see that. There could be a little side note in the text on Whedon needing to add a surname for the character for a video game, or whatever the text reads exactly.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 00:23, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed Lehane from the lead per Hobson's comment and worked the footnote into the C&C section. It probably needs to be better worked into the section through. Should we mention Lehane at all in the lead? I was going to write an editors note asking people not to re-add it, but then I remembered Jabba the Hutt has his full name in the lead.  Paul  730 09:14, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I would pull a "Jabba the Hutt" and insert it as they did for that article.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:39, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Pulled a Jabba.  Paul  730 12:53, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry I moved the page without checking here first. Anyway: My take is that if Whedon ever officially named the character, that name should be used as the article title (Faith Lehane), simply because it is more professional looking. If it's debatable that he ever did name her, Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) is a better compromise than anything with "Buffyverse" in it. --kingboyk (talk) 19:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Whedon did officially name the character, but it was after the show ended so only fans really know about it. While I agree that Faith Lehane looks nicer than Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer), that isn't really a good enough reason to name the article that. If "Lehane" had been with her throughout her history, then sure, but it's really just an afterthought, a minor detail. As Bignole pointed out above with the Google searches, "Faith Lehane" isn't what the character is known as in pop culture.  Paul  730 19:26, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
If he named her, the article should take that name. I'm sure that naming is supposed to be retrospective; i.e. if that's the name he gave her then that's her name from birth isn't it (she's fictional after all).
She's known as Faith but we can't have that name as it's not available. We have to come up with a compromise, and in my humble opinion "Faith Lehane" is a far better compromise than "Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)". What she's popularly known as isn't so important; we have redirects to cover that and we have intros to explain it. --kingboyk (talk) 19:35, 6 December 2007 (UTC) PS We don't add disambiguation suffixes to articles unless necessary (I'm having trouble getting this point across, but it's true). Here isn't necessary, because Faith Lehane is available.
I don't think it's a huge issue what the article is called, but it is an article about the chartacter in the TV show. The way the character was developed later, in a relatively little-known RPG, is a minor detail. The granting of a surname is only retrospective from an in-universe perspective. It's the TV character that's notable because the show is fairly popular and influential, and really any other stuff, even if it is canon (we all agree that anything Joss says is canon I think?) is only notable because it relates to the TV showHobson (talk) 20:06, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Agree with what you're saying, but I don't think it negates my argument that Faith Lehane is her name and is the best compromise title for the article (since "Faith" is taken). What the lead says about her is a different matter; there's plenty of space to explain all this to the reader. We might have to agree to disagree and at least the current title isn't ghastly :) --kingboyk (talk) 20:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

File a formal request at WP:RM to gauge the consensus, please. hbdragon88 (talk) 20:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Huh? This is the discussion. It's going fine. No need to add bureacracy to the process. --kingboyk (talk) 11:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I would also like to apologize for calling Lehane a "fan name" when protecting the page. I understand that it is an official name. The "Buffyverse" thing was on my mind when Paul asked me to protect the article, and I just put that down. hbdragon88 (talk) 01:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Jabba the Hutt has an official name, but the article is still "Jabba the Hutt". What about Spike? Should we call his article "William the Bloody", or should we retitle "Angel" to be "Liam", since that's his real name. Connor had like 3 different "official" names in the series. We should not subject article titles to recentism, just because someone decides later that the character should have a last name. It's like the constant debate with the Desperate Housewives characters, who are getting married and divorced left and right. What becomes THE name they should have? It's best to leave it as it was created and make the notes in the article about the name.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 21:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the name should necessarily be what was initially created; Buffy didn't gain the name "Summers" until the TV show and Lorne was known simply as "The Host" for an entire season. However, they are still known as Buffy Summers and Lorne for the majority of their history, it wasn't just added in at the last minute like Lehane. If the character of Faith is continued (and with the comic books and potential Ripper series, that's entirely possible) and she becomes commonly known as "Faith Lehane" in the media, then it would be fine to call the article that IMO. However, right now it's just a footnote in the character's history, and too obscure for the title.  Paul  730 22:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
But it's her name :) Just because we didn't know it was her name when we were watching the TV show doesn't change that :) And, as above, the best choice ("Faith") isn't available to us. Remember, we're looking for a compromise article title and that's all: what you write about her in the article is a different matter. (Except admittedly someone might come along and say "you should call her Lehane and not Faith" in the article body, which is clearly not acceptable... hmm) --kingboyk (talk) 11:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Her name is "Faith" to people that aren't fanboys/girls of the show. What if Whedon changes the name? What if she gets a middle name? What if after that they wipe the slate clean and she only goes by "Faith"? You're treating the article to recentism. Things changes in fiction all the time. "Faith" is the name more used than anything. Even a generally inconclusive Google test proves that it isn't that inconclusive when you search for "Faith Lehane" in news articles or scholarly works, because it doesn't show up.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:58, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Why would he change her name? Does he have a habit of changing these things? BTW, please don't make assumptions about me (an assumption which is incorrect). I'm not a fanboy and I didn't know much about the character that I hadn't read here.
I know that Faith is the name she is known by. I also know that Faith is not available! You're making points at me which I've already acknowledged to be correct! :)
Anyway, if I'm in a minority of one so be it. The issue here is just opinion, unlike the Buffy redirect where I'm demonstrably correct ;) So, let's concentrate on that more important issue. Thanks for engaging in dialogue. --kingboyk (talk) 19:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I didn't accuse you have being a fanboy, I was being general. You're opinion on choosing her name is based on the fact, or so it appears, that "Faith (Buffy the Vampire Slayer)" just doesn't look pretty. I wasn't aware that how something looked aesthetically was a criteria for naming articles. As for Buffy, I don't see your "demonstrably correctness" over there.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:43, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Not so much prettiness as the wish to avoid long, disambiguated titles. Disambiguation is supposed to be used sparingly. Here we have a choice. That said, I see which way the wind is blowing here. If folks want to take it to WP:RM in order to widen the debate that's fine but my position seems to be the minority. That's cool.
Wrt to the main article: The redirect is incorrect, which I've demonstrated with reference to the naming conventions (including the one you pointed me to). Where the dab page lives is certainly a matter of opinion and I respect your opinion on it even though different to mine. Anyway, we digress, but if anyone else wants to chip in the discussion is at here.--kingboyk (talk) 22:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Which is the more appropriate place to continue the discussion, this talk page or your user talk? Anyway, I can live with the new title if need be, but I also feel that Faith Lehane is the more proper name regardless of how widely known it is. -- Noneofyourbusiness (talk) 19:13, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I wholeheartedly agree. Let's keep her last name in bold (the first time in the article)Brand Eks (talk) 18:21, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Her last name is something new that was added, it is not what she is most commonly known as.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:32, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Something new is always being added... doesn't matter - Whedon himself named her that, so it's encyclopaedic. Brand Eks (talk) 18:37, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't matter who named her, see Jabba the Hutt for example. Jabba has a "real" name, but it isn't the lead for the article because the name he is most commonly known by is that name. The name that starts the article should be the name that appears at the top of the page (minus the disamgibuation).  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 18:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

While "Lehane" is a canon name given to Faith by the creator of the show, it is still, from a real world perspective, a rather minor aspect of the character. It's not used in the show or the comics, it appears solely in the RPG and (briefly) in one of the novels (as far as I know). Nobody except loyal Buffy fans even know her as "Faith Lehane". Giving "Lehane" prominence in the title or lead section is giving undue weight to what is basically a footnote in the development of the character. Yes, it's her name, but canonicity in a fictional universe does not equal real world significance. The surname is covered later in the lead with context on it's creation.  Paul  730 19:02, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Do a Google search on the name Faith Lehane and then tell me that it's not who she's known as. Not to mention it's six frakking letters extra in the damned article! Besides, the article for Kendra is called Kendra Young despite her last name ever being used in the series. None of this matters... it's her official name, so it should stay. Brand Eks (talk) 19:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
See Bignole's first comment in this thread about Google and "Faith Lehane". You're right, it's her name... so? I'm not disputing that, I'm disputing that it's her common name. It's not like "Buffy Summers", where the surname has been with her throughout the majority of the character's development, "Lehane" was an afterthought with very little significance in the series. Her Wikipedia article shouldn't be some kind of in-universe profile where we detail her stats like full name, height, weight, hair colour. It's about the real-world history and development of a fictional character, and "Lehane" is a very minor part of that. You say that the surname needs to be in the first paragraph of the article for completeness... well, it is. Read the sentence "Seven years after the character's creation, Whedon granted her the surname Lehane for a role-playing game and subsequent material." The lead explains that the surname was created much later and is not a big part of the character. You're trying to insert it prematurely into the lead as if it was always there from the beginning - Faith Lehane wasn't introduced in 1998, Faith was. Faith Lehane wasn't played by Eliza Dushku, Faith was. The surname came much later because somebody pointed out to Joss Whedon "By the way, you forgot to give her a second name..." Oh, and WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS comes to mind when you mention Kendra - I doubt Kendra even needs her own article, but that's an argument for another day...  Paul  730 19:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I have left a warning on the talk page of Special:Contributions/68.122.122.227 for making the same revert 4 times in the course of about 2 hours. I haven't taken it to WP:AN/3RR as this user may simply not know the rule (it would have been better to place the warning after three reverts I guess), but other editors may want to keep an eye out. This IP address appears to have made no other edits to Wikipedia other than the same repeated edit to the into of this article.Hobson (talk) 01:16, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

We seem to be edit warring over the "Lehane" issue...I've reverted three times now and I'm done. How can we resolve this issue? I feel that Paul and Bignole eloquently presented their feelings about why Lehane doesn't belong in the lead, and Kingboyk gave some good counter-arguments, but clearly we haven't reached consensus yet. --Kweeket Talk 19:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I'll start . . . I think everyone agrees that the surname "Lehane" should be mentioned in the intro, as it is in the current edit - http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Faith_%28Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer%29&oldid=184316225 . The current edit conflict has been about whether it is correct to say "Faith Lehane was introduced in 1998 in the third season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer" in the intro. I believe that is incorrect. As the article clearly states, the character was not called Faith Lehane when introduced to the show in 1998. She was simply called Faith - her surname was created by Joss Whedon years later. The key point for me is that this article is not an attempt to create a coherent in-universe biography of the character. Fans of the show know that her name has always been Lehane - even if it was never mentioned in the show - because we know Joss Whedon said so on a message board many years later. But what this article is supposed to be is a factual account of the character which appeared on the show. It's the show that's notable - because it was very popular, mainly. If the character's history was expanded, for example in a little-known role playing game, then that may well be worth a mention in this article, although it shouldn't get too much weight. But it's certainly not for us to retro-con and decide that the details added once the show ended also apply to the show itself. The facts are that a character called Faith - and only Faith - appeared in the television series. The character's background was then expanded in other, less notable media, including, some years later, a roleplaying game. That's what happened in the real world, and that's what the article should say.Hobson (talk) 20:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I concur, as it was one of my earlier points. This is about what she is most commonly known, and her most common name is that which appeared on the television show (where she originated). Personally, I like the way the article currently lists it, because it's in the opening paragraph and clearly indicates it was a recent change.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey all. I just wanted to say I'm over my revert crusade. I realized, during my Wikiblock, that I was being unreasonable with this and ultimately if the majority wants the article the way it is then that is the way it should be. No hard feelings I hope? Brand Eks (talk) 17:59, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing:)Hobson (talk) 20:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
None from me.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 22:12, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Something Wrong...

There's something wrong with the infobox. Pokemon Buffy Titan (talk) 10:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

That would be because you deleted the coding.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 12:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Who Are You

Okay, there's a bit of a debate going on as to whether or not to include Sarah Michelle Gellar in the infofox as having played Faith. I understand both sides but I have to agree that she shouldn't; SMG didn't really play Faith, she played Faith's mind in Buffy's body... she was mimicking Dushku. It's not like she's known for playing the character, she's known for playing Buffy, who happened to be possessed by Faith in one episode. Likewise, I don't think we should list Rance Howard as having played Angel, just because in the episode "Carpe Noctem" he happened to switch bodies with some old geezer. The characters are known for being played by Eliza Dushku, and David Boreanaz, the infobox should stick to these people alone. In Buffy's case, we should stick to Kristy Swanson and SMG, the only two actresses really assosciated with the character. Maybe we could just mention that the characters were played by the respective actresses in the "Appearances" section?; As Buffy (Eliza Dushku) is taken into custody by the Watchers' Council for crimes she did not commit, Faith (Sarah Michelle Gellar) discovers for the first time what is like to be surrounded by loving friends and family.  Paul  730 17:18, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that would work. To me, saying that SMG played Faith is like saying Freddy Kreuger played himself in Wes Craven's New Nightmare. Just because they listed him in the credits like so, doesn't actually make to real.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Of course Sarah Michelle Gellar is actually a real person and Freddy Krueger... isn't, so that might not be the best analogy. I understand what you mean though - SMG is credited as "Faith" in "Who Are You", but that doesn't mean she was actually playing the character... it was a brief twist in the story, not a serious casting decision.  Paul  730 17:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Apareances

i added this caus i tought that was necesary, almost every character hast this beautiful, idexed, apareances list, so i did this, but it was reverted because "already this is in a prose section" or something like that. But several episodes are not covered in the article so i think this is a good idea, and is more easy to fond her episodes this way. give your coments

[edit] Appearances

Canonical Appearances Faith has been in 30 canonical Buffyverse appearances.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Faith has appeared as a guest in 20 episodes.
Angel 
Faith has appeared as a guest in 6 episodes.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 8 Comics
Faith has appeared in four issues so far:

PS: i hope that this was not reverted because i listed SMG playing Faith... --200.104.201.224 (talk) 06:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, thank you for bringing this discussion to the talk page rather than edit warring, many people aren't that considerate. The reason I reverted you is because a list of episodes just isn't necessary in the article. Faith's appearances on Buffy, Angel, and the comic books are all covered in prose in the existing "Appearances" section. If it's a list of appearances you're looking for, Wikipedia isn't the right place, but the external links to IMDb and Wikia probably are - Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not an indiscriminate collection of information. We're not here to serve every purpose, even if it might be useful or interesting to readers. As for similar lists in other Buffy character articles, those pages probably fail Wikipedia policy. If you look at good quality character articles, like Jason Voorhees, Jack Sparrow, Superman, Jack Harkness, Jabba the Hutt etc, there aren't any lists of episodes/stories the characters feature in because it's not encyclopedic.  Paul  730 21:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)