Talk:Fairy tale

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Fairy tale article.
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Contents

[edit] Fractured Fairy Tales?

There should be at least a subsection of this article that goes into this topic in some depth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yoshiaki Abe (talk • contribs) 22:55, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese or Egyptian origin for Cinderella?

The "Cross-gender transmission" section of the article claims that the Chinese folk talk Ye Xian, recorded in the 9th century AD (see Ye Xian), is the oldest Cinderella story. But according to the Cinderella article, the oldest version is the Egyptian one, recorded in the first century BC. (See [1])

So in spite of the apparent foot-binding connection, I think the claim about a Chinese origin has to go. After all, small feet is a pretty generic sign of daintiness, it really isn't evidence of a Chinese origin. Dark Formal 04:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Surely there is a...

Better definition for scairy tales than that they contain talking animals, etc. The first paragraph could just as well apply to Lord of the Rings as to fairy tales. I know, I know, better to keep quiet than to point out a problem without a solution, and I don't have the answer.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hwillmott (talk • contribs) 07:57, March 12, 2007

You are aware that The Lord of the Rings often was called a fairy tale? And that Tolkien's famous essay on fantasy world-building was titled, On Fairy-Stories?
The process by which the genres of fantasy and fairy tales came to be distinguished is discussed in "History of the genre" but be wary of assuming that the distinction is a clear line. Goldfritha 02:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] older entries

Fairytales...where did they come from? They came from a long time ago.

[edit] Pictures

All the pictures here are by Ivan Bilibin, and while they are very nice indeed, it would be nice to get some diversity. I'd like to switch a couple out with other illustrations to get some more variety. Any objections? -Branddobbe 05:39, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Be my guest. As long as the pictures aren't copyrighted of course. One of Gustave Doré's illustrations would be nice. --Steerpike 10:55, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I took out the second two illustrations and replaced them with a picture of Little Red Riding Hood and a picture of some trolls and a princess. However, the pictures are still obviously pretty Euro-centric. I don't know enough about fairy tales from other cultures to put in pictures from non-European sources, but if someone else here does you're more than welcome to do so. -Branddobbe 16:21, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Hello. I read the article and I got a very simple problem with it. It's about fairy tales, but it talks about indo-european fairy tales as if whole world's fairy tales were "of same structure". They are not. Not even close. It'd be wise to specify in the article that this applies only to indo-european fairy tales, not to the whole world. Thanks. :)

Expanding it would be better. Goldfritha 22:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Since it talks about fairy tales in general rather than in the specific, what, BTW, do you consider inaccurate when applied to other cultures' fairy tales? Goldfritha 22:30, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Animal Farm

is there a difference between fairy tales and fairy stories shouldn't it be described here i was just wondering since George Orwell called animal farm a fairy story but he nor that book are mentioned here so i thought that that might have something to do with it

That is more the emerging definition of the term "fantasy". I put some discussion of that in the article. If you have a reference to calling Animal Farm a fairy tale, it would be a good addition to the article. Goldfritha 17:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fairy Tales

Fairy Tales are something you would read to children not adults right because my mom doesnt read fairy tales --TamagotchiGirl13 19:33, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

Fairy tales aren't something you would read to adults, but they are often read by adults. Adults find meanings in fairy tales that children miss, including adult themes that children don't appreciate. In fact, fairy tales are designed with double-entendres for adults, for both humor and for teaching the birds and the bees. Image:Tycon.jpgCoyoty 02:25, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Claim about India

Can anyone back up that claim about "origins"? Given that that is the sort of nationalistic claim often made on scant evidence -- what sort of evidence can be provided for the origin of an oral tale is one country? Goldfritha 23:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Faerie tale

"Faerie" is an occasional spelling of "fairy" but I would need references to see that "faerie tales" is a common enough spelling to belong in the lede. Goldfritha 21:14, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Social criticism

Removed one unsubstantiated claim about fairy-tale collectors, and editted another. We need some references for social criticism. Goldfritha 22:28, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

No references? Out it goes, then. Goldfritha 22:56, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

This article would be greatly improved by having references applied within the article itself, rather than an undifferentiated mass. I am working on it myself, but I don't know where everyone got their info. Goldfritha 16:48, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Change Article Title

This article should be re-titled something like History of Fairy Tale Theory and updated (or extensively rewritten). It gives information more useful for the literary theorist than a critical reader in the genre, and focuses on the history of criticism and categorization rather than elements common among fairy tales. Between the section entitled "Motifs" and "Defining marks of the fairy tale" only a single motif is described; this must be further developed if this is to be an article about the fairy tale, and not just about fairy tale theory. Good luck!Delvebelow 20:11, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

It should certainly not be re-titled. Being useful for the literary theorists is not exactly a disqualification. Goldfritha 02:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree that it should NOT be retitled. We need simple, concise Wikipedia entry names. Fairy tale is perfect. Otto1970 19:21, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I also agree that the title should stand as-is. - PKM 23:08, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is this a fairy tale?

I'm wondering whether to add a film into the category "films based on fairy tales", and would like to ask your thoughts on whether the story qualifies as one. The film in question is The Key, a 1961 Soviet animated feature. If you read the plot summary, you'll see that it has many features associated with fairy tales, particularly the presence of fairies and, most importantly, its structure - the characters, story and the places that the protagonists go to (such as the "Kingdom of Quick Feats and Easy Victories") are simplified abstractions and it is never clear where they are. Elements from Russian fairy tale traditions are used, such as the boy who grows "not by days but by hours". Moreover, the story is built entirely around several morals.

On the other hand, the story contains a scientist and several robots (though they aren't exactly portrayed realistically), and the story takes place more-or-less in contemporary times (1960s USSR). My own view is that "fairy tales" weren't originally about the past, because the world which they presented was close to the one which the people who told them lived in. I think that the story in this film is the same - it seems to have exactly the same structural underpinnings as the older fairy tales, unlike modern fantasy novels which use the same "world" but have radically different structures (a complete lack of economy and concision, for one). Perhaps the tradition of telling stories in this manner just survived longer in the Soviet Union than it did in the West. What do you guys think? Esn 06:03, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Me, I think using fairy tale motifs would qualify it for that category. Goldfritha 00:55, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] External links

I've purged the links of duplicate links, links to collections with pages of their own, unsuitable stuff. . . anyone who purges it of other unsuitable stuff would be appreciated. Goldfritha 01:02, 15 February 2007 (UTC)


I was interested in adding a link to my podcast home page wwww.fairytalesforever.com witch I think a lot of people would find relevant and interesting.

But I don't want to step on your toes.
--Ericwolf2 02:28, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

WikiProjectSpam is getting increasingly active in encouraging reduction of external links in general. Buddhipriya 02:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)


I think that someone should add grimmfairytales.com and andersenfairytales.com These links lead kids into one of the largest online fairy tale collections on the net.

[edit] Classic Fairy Tale Art

I readded the external link to Classic Fairy Tale art removed by Budhipriya. It's been there forever without previous objection. Unless we limit the topic to "History of the Fairy Tale (text ony)", it does not seem out of place.

Xineann 17:31, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Globalize/Europe

Explaining the tag: this section is about Victorian era, but the section was written as if Europe was the whole world. There is an off-hand mention of an Asian tale as the last sentence, but it is not really explained that this tale was actually bowdlerized for children. Did African, Asian, Native American, Native Australian tales get adapted the same way? Without writing about that, the article is assuming that Europe is the only important part of the world, which is hardly correct in this subject.

To a lesser extent this criticism applies to the whole article, which is heavily European-focused on a subject which ostensibly affects the whole world. --AnonEMouse (squeak) 16:15, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Every culture

The article claims that fairy tales have been found in "every culture." This should be substantiated... Marthanutmeg 00:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure thats true...71.62.10.130 01:04, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
And -- it's discussed in more detail in the History section, with references. Goldfritha 23:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Idries Shah

Congratulations on the beautiful article and its selection. I was quite surprised to find the name Idries Shah nowhere mentioned. His book "World Tales" (1979) is a beautifully illustrated collection of fairy tales from many lands, and each tale is prefaced by a discussion of its history and international transmission. For example, re "Dick Whittington and his Cat", after some discussion of its history in England and earlier versions in Europe, Shah goes on: "The earliest form is the legend of the royal house of Qays, written by Abdallah, son of Fazlullah, of Shiraz, in Persia, sixty years before Dick Whittington's birth. He, in return, refers the events to the 11th century." I suggest the inclusion of Shah's book in your bibliographical listings.Jakob37 03:43, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

There have been many beautiful illustrated collections of fairy tales from many lands, with notes such as you describe. What makes this one particularly notable? Goldfritha 23:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
Shah's Middle Eastern background, together with his broad knowledge of other cultures, makes, at least for me, a particularly rewarding experience. Try it!Jakob37 01:31, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
You didn't offer it as something to read. You offered it as something that should be incorporated into the article. If you're not going to argue for it on that basis, why did you suggest it? Goldfritha 03:30, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Since the article touches here and there on the way that these tales travel around the world, Shah's book could be profitably consulted if one wanted to add or clarify some examples. Just a suggestion in case you or others happen to run across it. - I feel no need to modify this fine article myself, but I could make some suggestions for the Compilations at the end: The Panchatantra is listed, but not the Kathasaritsagara or the Hitopadesa. Other well-known collections are the Tibetan Mdzangs-blun (the Wise Man and the Fool) and the Chinese 太平广记 (Tai-ping Guang-ji. Extensive Records from the Reign of Great Tranquility) published in 981.Jakob37 12:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Other well-known collections include literally thousands of books. If this article contained every book that could be profitably consulted, it would be enormous -- and not useful. Goldfritha 00:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, excuuuuse me for trying to help!! Jakob37 04:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MÄR

Does this article really need a link to MÄR? I don't think that show has a strong fairy-tale connection. Brutannica 01:05, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

And even if it did, does reading it really illuminate this topic? The same goes for the Vertigo Fables comic. Goldfritha 16:39, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to remove them unless someone objects. Brutannica 21:44, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

O.K., actually I'll keep the comic since it deals pretty explicitly with fairy tale characters. But MÄR 's fairy tale connections are pretty strained from what I've seen. Brutannica 21:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Happy ending

The claim about fairy tales ending happily in the lead's definition seems to have been written by someone who has (a) never read fairy tales and (b) has confused a dictionary definition of a the phrase's common usage (as in "fairy tale ending") to be a definition of fairy tales themselves. The Merriam-Webster citation is entirely inappropriate here. That being the case, and since fairy tales end tragically as often or more often than they end happily for their protagonists, I am modifying the statement. Robert K S 11:06, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you have a reference for your claim that fairy tales end tragically as often or more often than they end happily? Goldfritha 16:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
No, but I'm not putting that in the article. Only one example of a fairly tale ending terribly for the protag ruins the "all fairy tales have happy endings by definition" assertion. Thumb through a (non-bowdlerized) copy of Grimm's, and you'll be hard-pressed to find happy endings. "The Little Mermaid" ends with the mermaid dissolving as sea foam. Not exactly what I call a cheery resolution. Robert K S 17:16, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
I have read the entire original Grimm. It is overwhelmingly happy endings. Furthermore, that there are (occasional) fairy tales with unhappy endings does not justify your modification to the lede, which makes it sound like a toss-up whether a fairy tale has a happy or unhappy ending. Goldfritha 21:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi Goldfritha, thanks for your reply. First I'd like to say that if you disagree with the current lead, you should be bold and edit it. However, I think I've already established that fairy tales do not require happy endings by definition. More to those ends, however:
  • While the article need not necessarily reflect it (and I do not think its current language does), whether fairy tales end happily or unhappily is a toss up, especially amongst the most familiar stories that have since been Disneyfied. The Little Mermaid turns to sea foam, the Beast perishes, Esmerelda is hanged and Quasimodo entombed alive. (Okay, that last one wasn't a fairy tale.) After Cinderella marries her prince, the story's focus veers at length to the punishments enflicted on the wicked stepsisters (amputation, blindness), brutally tinging the story with too much sadism to any longer call it a "happy" ending. (Many other Grimm stories are like this--after the protagonist wins happiness, the story turns to punishing the evildoer(s) in gory fashion, unlike the "happy ending" versions in which the antagonists learn their lessons and come around, or are killed either by accident or by their own doing.)
  • Having taken another sampling of Grimm, I can say your characterization of Grimm as "overwhemingly happy endings" is correct, even though many of the stories actually have non-endings (i.e., endings that are neither happy nor sad, but rather, abrupt and frequently nonsensical ["Clever Hans", anyone?]) and there are a good number of stories with endings that are purely sadistic: "Cat and Mouse in Partnership", "The Pack of Ragamuffins", "Herr Korbes", "The Mouse, the Bird, and the Sausage"...
  • The Grimm stories are symbolic morality tales fraught with gruesome deaths and victimizations, and whether they end happily or unhappily is of ultimately less importatance than whether they convey some satisfactory ending of justice being meted out. In this vein there are many other fairy tales like the Pied Piper of Hamelin, which cannot be called anything but a tragedy, however just its conclusion might be.
  • The discussion should not neglect Kunstmärchen. While admittedly different from the Grimms' Volksmärchen, they constitute a whole German literary tradition of unhappy-ending fairy tales, and inspired in Andersen in large part.
  • Andersen's fairy tales are certainly predilected toward unhappy endings, and Wilde's fairy tales are, it is my memory's impression, exclusively bittersweet-sad. Dahl's and Snicket's works, though they clearly cannot be categorized as fairy tales, clearly derive from these traditions, with all sorts of nasty things constantly befalling children.
Robert K S 00:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
And then you'll be bold and change it back? Edit wars are nothing to be aimed at.
But fine. I'll change it. And you can leave it changed until we have a consensus here.
As for the rest of it -- WP:OR. You need a reference. (And that's not even going into your extremely small sample set.) Goldfritha 01:46, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Humm. on further reflection, let me point out that you are speaking of stories in which the villains get punished as having unhappy endings, that we are talking about whether the tale has a happy ending, not whether it has victimizations, and that you yourself dragged in a tale that you yourself admit is not a fairy tale. Please try to argue your point without haring off on tangents. Goldfritha 01:51, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but only articles, not talk pages, are subject to the attribution rules. As long as we're talking about OR in the article, please provide a citation for the assertion in your recent edit that fairy tales overwhelmingly have happy endings. Your recent edit also introduced two other problems: it leaves the clause after the semicolon as a non-sequitur ("however") and includes a redundancy in the mentioning of and wikilinking to happy endings. As for your accusing me of getting into revert wars, that is mistrustful (it doesn't assume good faith) and unnecessary. I'm perfectly willing to talk things out patiently. Cheers! Robert K S 08:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Another problem with the lead as it is now: the sense of "overwhelmingly" is unclear. I.e., does it mean, as it could be read, that the far-fetched sequence of events "overwhelm" the progression toward a happy ending? Robert K S 21:53, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
One wonders what to say at this point. "Excuse me for assuming your suggestion that I should edit without consensus was made in ignorance", perhaps? Goldfritha 00:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, if I were you, I'd say, "Oh, you've got some points there, and let me suggest/implement such-and-such improvements to a lead that could still benefit from them." I'm sorry I apparently got off on the wrong foot with you, but please, give me some credit as a good faith editor who only wants to help improve the article. Robert K S 13:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, you are not me. I can't suggest such-and-such improvements based on points that I do not think you have got. Goldfritha 00:32, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Baba Yaga

Someone should add Baba Yaga! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.240.158.107 (talk) 11:34, 15 April 2007 (UTC).

Why? There are lots of fairy tale stock characters out there. Goldfritha 00:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The erotic in fairy tales

Why are people deleting the entry on erotic fairy tales. If they cant handle the fact that there is sex in fairy tales they had better stop reading them. This is a valid entry about historical facts ie sex in fairy tales. If they cant handle it then go back to the Victorian nursery There is also the erotic in fairy tales as seen in the collection of erotic fairy tales —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edam777 (talk • contribs) 07:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Please stop adding this link. It is a collection of "poems by C Dean" of questionable quality, that are loosely based on fairy tales. It's nothing more than linkspam, and certainly not encyclopedic. --RobertG ♬ talk 09:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

it is not up to you to talk about the quality of some ones work and those poems deal directly with fairy tales in a modern setting. Fairy tales did not stop being produced last century. Fairy tales have always been modified and adapted just because you dont like them is not a reason to delete the entry. They are modern adaptions and equally valid as any of Grimms adaptions —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edam777 (talk • contribs) 15:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you have reliable references, please, that these particular fairy-tale adaptations are noteworthy? Or is it original research? I leave others to read them and then judge whether they are "as valid as any of Grimm's". I have absolutely no objection to a referenced discussion of the erotic in fairy tales: indeed it seems to me an excellent topic, worthy of study. I would imagine there is some literature on the subject. --RobertG ♬ talk 16:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I have added an erotic fairy tale section if that dont satisfy you then all you are objecting to is your own dislike of of the topic —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edam777 (talk • contribs) 08:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

That's much better, thank you for your research. "All you are objecting to is your own dislike of the topic" - did you read my reply to you above? --RobertG ♬ talk 09:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm removing it now because it doesn't belong there. There are erotic themes in fairy tales? So what? There are a lot of themes in fairy tales. No reason is given why these themes are particularly significiant, as opposed to any other themes. Goldfritha (talk) 02:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Racist term

Inew. Could someone please explain what are the racial implications? --The Four Deuces (talk) 08:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I saw the CNN coverage as well. The coverage did seem to imply something reprehensible in the use of the term, but the coverage did not say, implicity or explicitly, that the term had racist connotations. The news coverage also didn't attribute the alleged criticism of the term to any person or group. From context, it was clear that by "fairy tale" Clinton was implying dishonesty--i.e., "fairy tale" as a euphemism for "lie". IMO, chalk this up to poor journalism and move on. There doesn't seem to be anything notable here. Robert K S (talk) 09:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC)