Talk:Fair catch kick

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
American football Portal
This article is part of WikiProject American football, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to American football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
American football Portal
This article is part of WikiProject National Football League, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the NFL on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
News This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. The citation is in:

Contents

[edit] awarded fair catch

It doesn't have to be a fair catch that is caught, but what is called an 'awarded' fair catch. If you signal a fair catch, and are interfered with, you can accept an awarded fair catch at the spot of touching, for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.48.6.139 (talk) 19:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other kick attempts without documentation

I know of these attempted free catch kicks, but I do not have the documentation to back them up:

  • San Francisco failed an attempt against Minnesota in the 1989? Divisional playoffs.
  • New York Giants' PK Joe Danelo attempted one against either Dallas or Washington near the end of the 1978 or '79 season (it was a game with playoff implications, as I remember).

Hopefully, this will jog someone's memory. --Twigboy 18:35, 20 December 2005 (UTC).

I did some googling, and found this thread.
  • Your first one: According to the most recent edition of NFL Insider magazine (Feb/Mar 2003), it happened in a 1988 NFC Divisional Playoff Game between the Vikings and the 49ers. John Taylor called for a fair catch at midfield with 8 seconds left in the first half. Bill Walsh requested a free kick and Mike Cofer attempted a 60-yard FG with Barry Helton holding. The kick fell short and was downed by Joey Browner in the end zone. This was apparently January 1, 1989.
  • Your second one: I witnessed one of the most recent times this odd play occurred. It was a November 1979 game between the Redskins and Giants at Giants Stadium during Phil Simms' rookie year. Trailing 7-3 just before halftime, the Skins pinned the Giants deep in their own territory and forced them to punt. Bobby Hammond fair caught the Dave Jennings punt around the 50-yard line with a couple seconds left in the half. We all watched with amazement as Mark Moseley placed a tee on the 50 and, as his teammates milled around behind him, uncontestedly kicked the ball off the tee toward the goalposts. The kick ricocheted off the left upright and bounced away. No one really knew what had just happened...I remember people in the stands around me asking "Would that have counted if it went through?" It wasn't until we listened to the post game show on the car radio that we learned about this bizarre rule. I can't figure out the day, but it was apparently week 13.
Does anybody else know anything else about these games (especially a date for the second one, or box scores for either game)? --Arcadian 19:29, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

I've completely overhauled the "Known attempts" section, adding about 15 fair catch kicks I've discovered in contemporary game reports. --Quirkyresearch 00:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quirkyresearch additions

User:Quirkyresearch added a complete list recently, but I commented out the information to hide it until we iron out a possible copyvio violation. There is no certainty that user Quirkyresearch is the author of the Quirky Research blog from which the entire "known attempts" section is verbatim. If Quirkyresearch is, indeed, the blog author, then the information must (WP:CV) have some public-domain/creative-commons release so that the information can appear here verbatim. All of that in consideration, we should only link to the full list, but I would welcome the list reappearing in some kind of repackaged form. All said, this is fascinating information provided by Quirkyresearch. I just think the link is more appropriate at this time. —Twigboy 18:40, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I've given permission to use the material from my site, and am in the process of adding citations for each kick, so editors may restore the list to Wikipedia if they see fit. --Quirkyresearch 16:37, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Done. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 18:21, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
Fantastic! Even though the article is very NFL-centric, I think it is an excellent resource. Thanks Quirkyresearch and Disavian for your work. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Twigboy (talk • contribs) 02:07, 6 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Split section

I propose moving the Known attempts section to a new article/list (Fair catch kick (National Football League) or other similarly named article). The nonlist portion of the article discusses its use at all levels of football, but the known attempts shifts it to an NFL perspective. I feel that the list is feature-worthy on its own as well. Well referenced by User:Quirkyresearch

Also, I propose formatting in a table, but I will tackle that later.—Twigboy 14:57, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Support I would title it List of fair catch kicks in the National Football League if you're going to do it or something of the sort. I don't know how this would go at AFD though. If you give it a good well sourced lead like the NFL Draft articles it would help or other featiured lists it would help if anyone tried to delete it. Quadzilla99 22:07, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Splitting-off an entirely separate article for the NFL doesn't make much sense here, as the rule appears to be pretty consistent among the leagues that use it. We want as little duplicate content as possible. As for the list, I'd still prefer to leave the it as part of this article; the list is not that long and is of immediate interest to the majority of readers of the article. There's also not much of an article without the it. If split, though, use Quadzilla's title. ×Meegs 08:59, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Free kick?

The NFL rulebook (at least from '06) does not list Fair catch kicks as a Free Kick. In fact, at points in the book, it mentions "...on the field at snap, fair catch kick, or free kick, or when a snap, fair catch kick, or free kick is imminent." implying that a fair catch kick is NOT a free kick. A free kick is a kickoff, or: Article 2 A free kick also puts the ball in play: (a) after a safety (see 3-12-1b); (b) when there is a replay for a short free kick (6-2-1); and (c) when enforcement for a foul during a free kick is from the previous spot (6-2-5). Note: The ball is put in play by a snap in all other cases (7-3-1).

The definitions section also lists: Article 1 A Free Kick is one that puts the ball in play to start a free kick down (3-2-1, 6-1-1): It includes: (a) kickoff; (b) safety kick (6-1-2-a).

The reference to a free kick should be removed from this article, which I will do now. TheHYPO 03:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to pull out my rule book, but I think the distinction is this: A free kick is one which begins the play from a certain yard line. A kickoff is, therefore, put into play by a kick at the 30-yard line (and a safety kick is same principle, other than the fact that it's punted and from the 20-yard line). On the other hand, scrimmage kicks include field goals and punts, because a snap begins the play. A fair catch kick does not have a snap, so I think it is a free kick. But I need to investigate that.—Twigboy 03:57, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, I found it in my 1988 rulebook (no ISBN — special-ordered from NFL Properties). I am very sure the rule hasn't changed since. Rule 10, Section 1, Article 6: When a fair catch is declared for a team, the captain must choose ... either: (a) A free kick (punt, drop kick, or placekick without "Tee"), or (b) A snap to next put the ball in play.—Twigboy 04:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually I think you're both right. I just rewrote much of the Safety (football score) article and I did some research as to what was and was not a free kick. The rule book (particularly the NFL's) is contradictory, not only on the subject of if a fair catch kick is a free kick, but also whether or not a regular kickoff is a free kick. Given the ambiguity, I prefer the current text because I think it is more in line with the common verbiage used by football fans. But I'm willing to let TheHYPO convince me otherwise. Dpiranha 16:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
After looking further in the rule book last night, it stated that, while a fair-catch kick is a free kick, it ceases to follow free-kick rules once kicked. Therefore, no requirement to go 10 yards, it's not a live ball after going 10 yards, kicks out of bounds return to the point kicked (and not a penalty, such as a kickoff). This also, presumably, is in place to allow the kick to score, which is not possible on other free kicks. The NFL's online rules digest briefly backs this assertion up. While the rule hasn't changed, perhaps The HYPO's rulebook reflects a revision to avoid ambiguity.—Twigboy 20:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)