Talk:Failed state
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Brilliant mind or not, the definiton of "failed state" - as given here, seems to describe ANYTHING except a 1984 totalitarianism w gross overkill in the secret police department.
Did Chomsky make a mistake? Or can we do better here?
67.174.53.196 20:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] 18th century Poland
Could 18th century Poland be classed as a 'failed state'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by GCarty (talk • contribs) 13:36, 20 November 2003
[edit] Chechnya
Can Chechnya at the time of separatist rule be added to the list of countries labeled as failed states? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mzabaluev (talk • contribs) 21:13, 9 March 2005
- No. Chechnya never was a state. It fell under the Russian state, and the Russian state failed to adequately control it at one time, but it wasn't a state in and of itself. Now if Chechnya broke away and became an independent state, and the Chechen government was unable to enforce law and order throughout Chechnya, then they would be a failed state. — Phil Welch 03:23, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
I should add that on Wikipedia there is no original research allowed, so in order to list a country as a failed state, someone else must have already classified them as such. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and encyclopedias are by nature secondary if not tertiary material. — Phil Welch 03:26, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Belgium
Is it possible to label some countries without a clear national identity and strong sense of separatism such as in Belgium as a failed state? Please forgive me if this remark offends anyone. Meursault2004 09:05, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
- An intelectually provocative point you raise--but the term as mostly used refers to political/administrative control, not to national identity. Your observation is valid, but I think would be best addressed in the topic of nationalism not failed state. ~ Dpr 09:09, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
- Thanks your quick reaction. Yeah, you might be right. Meursault2004 10:25, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
Actually there is more to it. I do not know how important a parameter a good system of justice is in this failed state list, but there is still an enormous problem in Belgium's legal system: lawyers are still able to drag on proceedings, and there is an enormous bureaucratic mess in the whole organisation of schedules, trials and verdicts (the use of computers is a recent novelty). 5 years ago a lawyer on French-speaking state television RTBF claimed in a debate on failing (!) justice in Belgium that there was a backlog of two million cases, one half of which was outdated - no verdict necessary anymore, eg because one of the parties has died, or circumstances have changed precisely because of the delay (eg whenever a minor inherits something, a judge has to rule whether it's proper for him/her to accept the inheritance - Belgians simply know that when there is a contention raised by another heir, the minor will usually be 25 when a verdict could be reached) and so on. Although there is a law on divorce stating two years' separation as a ground for divorce, most people who get divorced on the basis of this article (in most cases, you still need a judge to proclaim you are divorced) get their divorce only after 4-5 years (occasionally even 10).
Now guess what - the backlog also exists on the "linguistic front". In 1972, a European court ruled that the Belgian law concerning French-language schools in the notorious "six communes" in the Flemish periphery was discriminatory in that it did not allow French speaking children from other villages to enrol in these schools, whereas Dutch speaking children from Brussels or Walloonia were allowed to enrol in the Dutch-language schools of the smae six communes. Some foreigners may think this a technicality which can be solved very easily (the number of "foreign" Dutch speaking children is exactly 0 in five of the six villages) but believe it or not, we are now in 2006 and the Belgian government still has not been able to change this part of the law. So, when Dutch speakers in Comines-Komen wanted a "Flemish" school, French speaking politicians used all the intricacies of the law to try to prevent it or at least delay it as long as possible. Such is the Belgian version of "checks and balances". User_talk:Pan_Gerwazy--pgp 07:54, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Needs reconciling with Chomsky's book
This article needs reconciling with Chomsky's book and use of the term in it. -Christiaan 20:56, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Beyond failed
Hasn't Somalia over the past decade really been something of a sui generis, where the state has simply ceased to exist except as lines drawn on a map? Isn't there some more appropriate term or legal understanding for that fairly unprecedented situation than "failed state"?--Pharos 05:41, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Pakistan?@#$%?????
Howcome Pakistan is a failed state? Pakistan can be found in the emerging market article on Wikipedia. I am confused that howcome the same country is on both the lists? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.79.18.6 (talk • contribs) 10:11, 18 July 2006
- Iraq has the fastest GDP growth for the last two years (an astonishing 50%+). That doesn't make it any more of a successful nation, given its problems. A failed state tag has little to do with the economy, and more with the political scenario. --Idleguy 10:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
Is it because of all those rebels?BLA and all? About that Iraq thing- if my economy consists of two tea stalls and I build 1 more, then my economy grows by 50%, doesn't it? But I personally think there were more nations which deserved to be failed states- Israel (not trying to offend anyone) for instance because Israel has more rebellions than any one...moreover South Asia is THE emerging Asia! (even Bhutan, Nepal and Bangladesh) I believe have been successful..... then why Pakistan? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.79.18.6 (talk • contribs) 17:28, 20 July 2006
- You are right about the economy example. As for the reasons, the magazine says the conflict in Waziristan and the earthquake which hit Pakistan and the inefficient relief that followed as well as other sectarian violences are to blame. --Idleguy 01:58, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Reply to Idleguy: The relief effort was a success and is regarded as the best example of military-NGO cooperation. With regards to Waziristan, it is a small part of Pakistan and does not represent it entirely. I dont think Pakistan at all belongs in this "Failed States" index. I think whoever wrote this index put the minimum effort into it.
Thanks for the information.
These magazine folks are sitting thousands of miles away, passing judgement on extremely difficult situations and issues without as much as moving a finger. I think their judgements are useless.
(10/01/08) But looks like they have been right about Pakistan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.247.235.98 (talk) 13:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Origin of Phrase
I reccomend that at the beginning we mention the origin of the phrase. If I remember correctly, the phrase originated in the 1990's from Bill Clinton. User:Green01 6:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
HOW THE HELL IS THE US AND UK A FAILED STATE - I'm sitting right now in a supposed failed state without any fear of a warlord marching down my road. WTF?
You disagree with something and then delete it? That's not Wiki protocall and is very unhelpful behaviour. I will consider putting it back after hearing others' opinion on your actions. User:Green01 11:00, 12 October 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Fund for Peace
I have changed the reference to Foreign Policy magazine's publishing of the Failed States Index. The Index was actually created by the Fund for Peace, a think-tank based in Washington, D.C. The Index is still maintained and published by the Fund for Peace. Foreign Policy magazine simply pays FfP a yearly fee to re-publish it. J.J. 67.155.170.186 19:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Fundamental controversy
Just because this term is in vogue in certain think-tanks and academic circles in the West (and has since been rather unthinkingly adopted by some media pundits), does not justify its unquestioned inclusion in Wiki. I vote either removing it completely, and adding it as a note or section elsewhere, or else significantly expanding the 'controversy' section here to include most of the current article. The Failed States Index is far from authoritative, thoroughly questionable, and should not be given centre-stage - it should get a mention and a footnote.
The idea that you can index 'state failure' with such certainty is patently absurd, and even dangerous. A state can 'fail' to do this or that, or can 'fail' to conform to the norms of the currently dominant ideology, but declaring a state to be 'failed' has a ring of finality about it that serves as perfect justification for the interventionist brigade. "This state has FAILED! We gotta go in!"
Just look at the recent debacle in Somalia, where the recent attempt to set up the first government with a popular mandate there for years was immediately shot down in flames by Ethiopians and Americans who didn't like the idea of an independent Islamic state. It's an Islamic country! The only 'modern' states Somalia has ever known have been (Brit & Italian) colonial regimes, and a externally supported communist dictatorship. The first time some people form an organic polity in the place, it is regarded as an abhorrent threat. Of course, Ethiopia's neutrality is unquestionable... The accusations that it was a Taleban-like regime revealed the total paucity of imagination of the predictable pundits. Independent Islamic regime = Taleban. Nonsense - and now look at the place - it'll be screwed up again for years...
The Failed States Index describes Iraq as a 'failed state' too. Erm... without getting too Chomsky-esque, can I just ask who is responsible for the 'failure' there?
I am rather shocked that Wiki let this one slip through, and I'm very far from being a Chomsky-ite or Marxist!
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Wiki was supposed to aspire to neutrality, not act as a propaganda tool.
On balance, I think we should work on a completely new article about the use of the term 'failed states': stating where it first appeared (- I think it was an article by Heilman & Ratner in Foreign Policy 1993 - later used by Clinton); a few interesting examples of which states it has been applied to; potential uses and abuses; and including the Failed States Index not as a key part of the definition, but as a footnote. Of course, some historical detail of state formation would be essential, but would have to be brief. BTW - yes, Poland in the 18th century would now be classed as a failed state - so would almost all the polities of early modern Europe, by the Index's ridiculous, de-contextualised methodology!
As far as I know, the Fund for Peace (authors of the Failure Index) operates under the auspices of the Partnership for Peace (the coalition that partook in Kosovo '99), which is part of NATO. Is that politically neutral? Hasslehoof 02:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
I think a reform to the concept could be to look at it from the bottom-up. Is the state failing in fundamental aspects of security for group(s) of people —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.247.235.98 (talk) 13:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Can anybody provide a source about "failed states" that's non U.S.American? The whole concept is not in existence in Germany to my knowledge. It sounds to me like a concept born to justify the invasion/intervention anywhere 'because that state is failed anyway'. At the very least the definition should reflect that this judgment about the existence of failed states and what state is failed or not is not universally accepted. The term is defined as if it was widely accepted, like for example official U.N. nomenclature is. But so far it's merely a product of American politicians and think tanks that's in use in the USA. Lastdingo (talk) 19:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Lebanon
Lebanon is as much a failed state as Pakistan. Pakistan is on the list because the tribal areas are unadministrable from Islamabad. Likewise, Hezbollah areas are unadministrable from Beirut. These two states should (for purposes of analysis) rationally be split into two states, as de facto they already are. --76.209.59.227 14:23, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Pakistan.... A failed state???
Well as far as i can remember in 1999 or something CIA declared that pakistan will become a failed state by 2015. But now many other agencies say that by 2015 Pakistan will have a significant role in world economy by 2015. Isnt that funny!.......these agencies make a laughing stock of themselves. --Mm11 10:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] New list
Anyone seen this [1] ? If true that means there is a new list. Anyone got an update? Tazz 18:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV: Please bracket disputes
That the term "failed state" exists as a term in political and economic discussion, and has a generally agreed-upon meaning appears to be conceded, and the article should reflect this. At the same time, there also seems to be a broad level of dispute as to what conditions must exist for a state to be considered "failed". Furthermore, there is without any doubt a broad level of disagreement as to which states are presently "failed". Can we please focus on identifying those things that authorities agree upon and present them as such, and then presenting the disagreements as such as well? As it stands, this article has serious problems, and seems more intent on pressing various pet political theories as to what states may or may not be failed instead of discussing an abstract politicoeconomic concept. I have made some improvements, but I think considerable further attention is required. Chromaticity 14:08, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] "Change in Rank" in Failed States List is very confusing
The parenthesized "change in rank since last year" is very confusing! For example, Chad is listed in 2007 as:
- 5. Chad (+1)
... which naturally would lead the reader to believe that Chad was in position #4 in 2006 (since last year's rank +1 = this year's rank). But, the direction of the change is actually opposite! Chad was in fact in position #6 in 2006. Presumably the + sign is used to indicate "increasing failure." I believe this is unnecessarily confusing, and the opposite sign should be listed, with an additional explanatory note about the list for clarification. What do you think? MOXFYRE (contrib) 19:24, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- Dude, have you never seen a Top 40? +1 means up one position in the ranks since last time. As it ought. (Though one could argue about the concept of a "most failed" list.) 129.16.97.227 (talk) 14:55, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
It makes sense to me. The Human Development Index is the same way; + denotes increased standard of living, - decreased. It doesn't really matter though. You have to be run by a socialist government to be considered "sustainable." The whole rating system is skewed, unrealistic, and ridiculous. A better source should be found to rank nations in the world that isn't a popularity contest. XIDE 13:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Spain
Why Spain was included as a moderate failed state ? Belem tower 08:37, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Wrong scale
- Because the scale used in the graphic is from Fund for Peace. If you click on "The Map" at Failed State Index page at ForeignPolicy.com, it lists both the United States and Spain, as well as several others listed as "Moderate" at Fund for Peace, as "Stable". ForeignPolicy.com uses a five-grade scale, whereas Fund for Peace uses a four-grade scale. For NPOV purposes we might be better off using the ForeignPolicy.com scale. Fund for Peace is a source with an agenda, whereas Foreign Policy magazine is a more neutral informative source. --Kitch (Talk : Contrib) 13:22, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] North Korea's central government weak?!?
Either the definition in our lead ("A failed state is a state whose central government is so weak or ineffective that it has little practical control over much of its territory.") needs re-working or North Korea needs excluding from the list since the dictator's control of the DPRK's people is well-nigh total! Alice.S 00:01, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- Who made up those definitions anyways? It looks like original research and should be deleted completely. 99.240.27.210 (talk) 12:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Like I said below, I think if we're going to have an article on this topic we really need to discuss how conflicted the literature on the topic is. It's defined several different ways and elements of all of those definitions, together with who defined them, should be there. Orderinchaos 16:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Intentional perversion?
I have today attempted to correct some (intentional?) perversion of the tables with regard to both Pakistan and India. I did this by first reverting to an old revision of our article, as edited by User:Spitzl at 12:01, 6 October 2007. I then attempted to add conscientious edits made by various editors since that date. However, It may differ significantly from what is correct according to the sources and I would request that others check my work. If IP's wish to make changes in the tables perhaps they would care to discuss them here first, lest I mistakenly revert them as vandals? Alice.S 22:56, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Questionable list
Canada and Belgium - both candidates for breaking apart due to ethnic/language barriers - both best rating. Germany - not best rating although all indicators are negative. WTF? This list is very questionable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.79.61.28 (talk) 21:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
The whole list is questionable. India with far better democratic credentials as against US with a President who first came to power illegally by using political judges are ranked seperatly. As is India and its failed neighbours like Pakistan and Bangladesh?. Under what reasoning is India at the same level as Pakistan, Bangladesh and CIS? Obviously the list is a western wish list. Canada, and whole of Europistan is on the verge of splits and trouble as soon as Islam gains the upper hand. That is NOT taken int consideration. Iverall a questionable article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.83.41.239 (talk) 10:17, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Webber
The article mentions some guy called Webber but forgets to mention who this Webber is? It doesn't even say what they actually are meant to have said... EAi (talk) 01:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
The article Monopoly on the legitimate use of physical force, linked from this one, talks about Max Weber and his lecture Politics as a Vocation. Presumably this is the same Weber, but I'm not sure. 68.13.240.14 (talk) 00:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree, when the surname Weber is used in the beginning of this page it is unclear exactly who is being referenced and why. Justin (talk) 02:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Question re emphasis
I am of the opinion that the Fund for Peace's Failed States Index is given far too much prominence in this article, and that a summary of the literature on failed states would actually be more useful to a reader of Wikipedia. I did an assignment a few weeks ago on this topic and found a few useful references which I have as PDFs. I quote from Stewart (2007), p.647: "The indicators scholars have proposed for state failure tend to be idiosyncratic. Robert Rotberg (2003:5-9) (my note: When States Fail: Causes and Consequences), for example, notes a dozen-odd characteristics of failing states [...] Meanwhile, the annual Failed States Index published by the Fund for Peace (2006) and published in Foreign Policy magazine offers a competing set of indicators that overlap only imperfectly with Rotberg's." This suggests to me that every man has their own measure, although they may agree on the extremes. Orderinchaos 16:29, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, yeah - and a symposium from the Harvard International Review (Winter 2008) entitled "Addressing Collapse: An International Responsibility?" (p.40-73) contains a string of short articles by various academics and others on the topic. While they don't cite their own sources, they could be useful for overviewing the topic. Orderinchaos 16:31, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
