Talk:Fact-value distinction

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[edit] Merging articles? Bad logic

I don't know why you would want to say that the Fact-Value Distinction is less known, or should be collapsed into 'Is-ought', you got things backwards, really. This article is out on the Internet in many non-wiki encyclopededia, (just do a google search to see) so it has value and should remain as such. The article is directly related to Ruth Ann Putnam's articles with the same title. If people want to expand it- fine- but to merge it is to deprive the work of a useful article, that carries much more currency than just 'Is-ought'. --Mikerussell 16:53, 2005 August 9 (UTC)

I think it would be helpful if this article, and the Is-ought problem article, had links to one another. --saulkaiserman 16:20, 2006 February 22

why not just add it, as see also, which I did. But to be honest, that article is not very shrply written, it starts with this phrase "seems to be a big difference" between Is and Ought statements. Somebody could probably do a better job describing and explaining what this 'big difference' is. Long time since I read Hume's primary works, but I doubt he used the term 'big difference' --Mikerussell 15:19, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I see no difference between the is-ought problem and the fact-value distinction; they're very slightly different ways of referring to an identical problem. A fact is an is-statement. A value is an ought-statement. Both articles cover the problems of deriving a value (ought-statement) from a fact, (is-statement,) and a well-written encyclopedia article on one should be almost identical to one on the other. (With perhaps some differences in information about historical usage.) Both articles are quite rambly and unencyclopedic - I'll try to clean one up, but before starting I think it's worth deciding which one, to keep. Inebriatedonkey 09:56, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naturalistic fallacy

The naturalistic fallacy refers to a faulty belief people make that VALUES can be deduced from FACTS or vice versa, not what the recent editor was suggesting in the text, "confusing the fact-value distinction". Maybe more should be added to that section to make things clearer, but all one really has to do is hyperlink to the Naturalistic fallacy article to get an idea. The 'Fallacy' part is the idea throughout history, peoples thought values were determined by facts or science, which the fact-value distinction does away with- or is the intellectual 'cure' for that misguided belief, at least according to those who subscribe to the fact-value distinction. The 'Natural" part of the concept refers to the fact that peoples who did not understand the F-V distinction thought that values could be found 'in nature' or that Natural Law was a philosophically sound concept. This why Hume is called a skeptic- for he and others came to undermine the centuries old belief, found most plainly in Christian theology and philosophy since St. Augustine through Luther, Calvin and Hooker, that a rational examination of nature could produce a natural order or law applicable everywhere and always --Mikerussell 22:32, 25 February 2006 (UTC)--Mikerussell 22:13, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, but the DISTINCTION is not a FALLACY. Making the distinction is not fallacious; confusing it is. Let's try to say it correctly, and not just revert to the previous error.

WRONG, you cannot interject your own opinion into the article. This a black and white thing, the very definition of the fact-value distinction is that it is a FALLACY. If you disagree- so what? The concept, centuries old say it is fallacious. Have you consulted the texts that are cited in the bibliography? (Putnam's especially) If you want to start another article about how you think Facts and Values do exist independently, and people just confuse them at times, then do so; however, this is the very thing that marks the concept in distinction to modern social science. If you cannot grasp this don't try to ruin a valid article. The fact-value distinction and/or Naturalistic Fallacy does not refer to CONFUSING facts and values- rather it says facts and values DO NOT EXIST INDEPENDENTLY, they are not natural, but constructions created for particuliar purposes in particuliar times and places and the use of these terms mask a deeper appreciation for the actual ground of human understanding. Whether or not most people recognize this, or even most social scientists teach this (which of course they don't since it would call into question much of their research and approach to understanding the phenmena they study) is irrelevant to this point. Sorry if I am overbearing but this article is completely useless if you consistently try to re-interpret the concept to fit your limited opinion. Whether this is true, you can argue in philosophy, but it is a valid concept centuries old and has a place here. --Mikerussell 16:33, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the previous editor, although perhaps not with his or her wording; the naturalistic fallacy and the distinction between facts and values are not the same thing. For one thing, the naturalistic fallacy is a certain step within a line of reasoning where one comes to a normative conclusion based on some assumed connection or equivalence between the "natural" and the "good" (in addition to any other antecedents); the supposed fallacy lies in accepting that presupposed connection. The fact-value distinction, on the other hand, is merely the claim that statements about fact are inherently non-normative, whereas statements about value are normative. It's a separate claim entirely; one could prove the falsity of the naturalistic fallacy by assuming the truth of the fact-value distinction, and one could refute the claim that the naturalistic fallacy is a fallacy by denying the fact-value distinction. Since either view can be true while the other is false, the two views are not equivalent.Clay 17:15, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] PoV

The first definition ("The fact-value distinction is a concept used to distinguish between arguments which can be claimed through reason alone, and those where rationality is limited to describing a collective opinion.") is PoV and must therefore be changed. Velho 02:42, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

You will need to explain your comments more fully, at least for the benefit of me. In all honesty, I think there is not a shred of POV in the definition, it is widely accepted as the definition of the fact-value distinction. I am perplexed at the comment? I don't think it needs to be changed in the slightest. Please explain your comment.--Mikerussell 05:20, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi! Sorry for the delay! The assertion that, regarding value, "rationality is limited to describing a collective opinion" is commited to one of the several "relativisms" and/or to one of the several "anti-realisms" in value matters. See, for instance (!), Raz's more or less recent The Practice of Value: Berkeley Tanner Lectures (Joseph Raz, et al, Clarendon Press, 2003); or Putnam's The Collapse of the Fact/Value Dichotomy and Other Essays (Harvard University Press, 2002); or SEP's's article on moral reasoning. It also confounds descriptive and "normative" perspectives of value.
The assertion that arguments of fact "can be claimed through reason alone" seems to me pre-Kantianly wrong.
Best, Velho 04:59, 4 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Velho PoV issues

Quite frankly, I don't think we are on the same page with this, so I welcome you to alter the article- or anybody else too- if you see where your improvements or additions will remedy what you consider to be POV. As I read your remarks, you seem to be taking this article as scientific proof of the difference, as opposed to describing the basic concept as contructed over recent centuries. There is a big difference between PoV writing on wikipedia, and scientific or philosophic disagreement. Your assertion:

"rationality is limited to describing a collective opinion" is commited to one of the several "relativisms" and/or to one of the several "anti-realisms" in value matters.

is quite correct. But how is that PoV, especially if wikipedia has an article on relativism? "rationality is limited to describing a collective opinion" is relativism. So what? Whether relativism is valid or true, is quite frankly, another matter altogether and beyond the scope of a wikipedia article. I think your claims to Kantian philosophy, and your use of words like 'Moral Philosophy' and 'Moral Reasoning' completely miss the point of the article. I am reminded of the disagreement between Ernst Cassirer and Martin Heidegger when the former told the ladder to write an ethics for Being and Time and Heidegger correctly stated that it was a complete impossibility to write an 'ethics'. Rather than pre-Kantian, I think your comments are post-Kantianly wrong. The issue of relativism involves the implicit claim made to matters believed to be (wrongly or not) "claimed through reason alone". 'Morality' itself would NOT speak to an article about the fact-value distintinction. As far as Putnam is concerned, I have no knowledge of him- this Hilary person, the sources cited are from a woman named Ruth Ann Putnam who I believe teaches at MIT in Boston. Your Stanford source is not useful or applicable to my mind especially when it begins a topic line as Moral reasoning is individual or collective practical reasoning about what, morally, one ought to do.SEP's's article on moral reasoning. That whole article is inapplicable, it already is written from an ignorance of the fact-value distinction, the mere use of the word 'moral', let alone the rather quaint subheadings like: How Can We Reason, Morally, With One Another?

So we are not on the same page here. I suggest you try to edit the article, it is all well and good to claim something is PoV and then cite your sources, it is quite another to actually assimilate the sources and edit the article accordingly. I would be really interested to see how such an edit would improve and/or expand the current article. However, I would just say that the article in about the Fact-value distinction and not Facts and Values per se. Oh well, lunch is over and I must return to wage-earning activities (which I dearly love- in case my boss is surveilling my computer use).--Mikerussell 18:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Merge Tag II

This tag has been up twice and no comment has been offered. I imagine if 90 days pass, it is useful to withdraw the tag. I suspect it is not likely to be merged easily and thus can stand as is. --Mikerussell 16:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] User:Clayness references asked for

User:Clayness added some Fact/Cite{{Fact}} tags and I tried to find some relevent quotes to mediate his concerns, although it is a little difficult to cite the references to Plato. I mean the Republic- in total could be used as a cite for the last sentence

"Plato tried to define philosophy as a search for truth, a search for what is; this 'value' precedes any 'fact."

The Republic begins with a concern for defining/finding Justice, defined in two very different ways, the first seems to be like the 'value' of justice, or a 'moral' conception of justice- one that the Sophist Thraymacus tries to attribute to Socrates and thus is the reason why he is so hostile to Socrates, but as it proves out, that definition of justice is not really at all what justice is by the end of the dialogue, and it certainly is never endorsed by Socrates- the sophist blushes when he relaizes this where others in the group don't pick up on it as quickly. In a way the dialogue begins with trying to define and defend justice but shifts rather remarkably to defining what a philosopher is, and thus what philosophy is. This is the very reason for reading the book and I suspect some people may think what I have added as references are hard to assimilate, although they are fairly famous quotes from the Republic. Soem readers themselves may just be too used having a reference being like 'Joe Blow author says Plato didn;t understand this or that'. At any rate, I think Clayness is right about the article needing more references to support the explanations and maybe I will add some more shortly. I have not read Putnam's articles for a long time now and may be able to access the actual articles and bring a stronger more exact support from her articles.--Mikerussell 06:01, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fact-value problem

Hello. It seems to me as if this section needs some work. The logic itself seems like it needs work, but when I read this section it comes across to me as if the criticisms are true and thus the Fact-value distinction is completely false. Perhaps removing some of the opinion/original research and putting more citations on the statements is called for. BrokeApart 07:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The whole point of the article is to say the Fact-Value Distinction is FALSE. That's the section. If the logic is faulty it is only because the premise is untrue. That's the point of the article. I am not certain your suggestion below makes much sense...

"when I read this section it comes across to me as if the criticisms are true and thus the Fact-value distinction is completely false."

...when the article is trying to do exactly what you seem to think is illogical. There are but 3 paragraphs, all cited, so any original research seems to be removed. This is developing as a theme to the DISCUSSION page here, persons are convinced the Fact-Value Distinction is beyong question- and thus read this page and keep thinking, ummm, well it's true isn't it? No, the whole argument says it is false. Sources are cited to support it. By all means take a crack at adding to it, the article is open to immediate edits by any person with valid points. Now, if you think Facts and Values are seperate independent entities, or categories of the human mind, then by all means add to the debate by including any valid arguments.--Mikerussell 15:19, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The first paragraph is the main paragraph of the section, giving the general idea of the "Fact-Value Problem". It brings in the latter two paragraphs in order to support an example in the first paragraph, and it cites those, but the main idea (that there are two problems with the Fact-Value distinction) is still original research (or, at least, hasn't been cited for). It hasn't actually supported, in any way, that there is any controversy over the subject. Furthermore, the first paragraph presents the viewpoint that the Fact-Value distinction is wrong as immutable fact, rather than simply presenting it as a question debated by philosophers. Mordechai4 02:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with this. There seem to be some citations, but the citations aren't relevant to the main idea of the section (which, as the author of the section pointed out above, is to show that the fact-value distinction is categorically false, which probably doesn't conform to a neutral viewpoint). Basically, the statement
Firstly, the idea itself is not self-sufficient. The concept required great genius to arise, and there were particular political and historical conditions which contributed to its emergence. Therefore, its truth is of question. Secondly, the blind use of the concept distorts the very tradition whence it came. Thus the origin of 'facts' and 'values', or philosophy, is obscured from view.
isn't sourced at all as being the least bit relevant, isn't sourced as being anything said by actual philosophers during the debate, and seems on its face to be very irrelevant: Why would its truth value be in question simply because it required genius during a specific period of time? The phrase 'distorts the very tradition whence it came' seems to be an empty normative statement that wouldn't impact the truth value of anything at all: Which would be fine if real philosophers were saying it, but no citation has been made as to where this line of reasoning has ever been used anywhere. Also, it is phrased as if the fact-value distinction is simply wrong (again, the author of the section has stated that this was his intention), which seems to be a violation of NPOV. The example that is given also seems to be irrelevant: How does the question of whether Plato understood or did not understand the fact-values distinction speak at all to anything regarding a supposed 'Fact-values problem'? The basic reasoning of the section itself seems to be incorrect as well: It puts forth a fact-values distinction, saying that a certain fact was arrived to because scientists held a certain value, which is basically restating Hume's theory of motivation. Again, though, this would all be fine if these arguments were put forth by philosophers, but no evidence has been given to that effect: The only citations in the section have to do with the question of Plato's understanding, which doesn't at all support the thesis (a non-neutral thesis that doesn't have a place in the article anyway) that the fact-values distinction is simply FALSE, as mikerussel seems to wish to push. Therefore, because 1) The main thesis of the section is not supported, 2) No evidence has been given that the thesis of the section is a line of reasoning pursued by philosophers, 3) It doesn't really seem to be speaking about a 'fact-values problem', but rather it speaks to such vagueries as 'It required genius to see, therefore we must question its truth value!' and 'It distrots the tradition from whence it came!', 4) The example is irrelevant, and 5) It violates WP:NPOV anyway in its present form...Reverting Mordechai4's changes as vandalism seems wholly unwarranted. Rather, it seems like more examination as to the relevance of the section is merited. Username5217 03:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The above is all original research. What philosophers have you cited in the above arguement? It is just your own opinion, whomever you are. If the above was placed in the article, it would be OR. I would hardly call the deletion as vandalism, but it is evidence of a failure to understand the point. I took down the tags after reading the above statements, which are more and more to my mind just meritless personal speculations, especially when they are on about "seems to be an empty normative statement that wouldn't impact the truth value of anything at all: Which would be fine if real philosophers were saying it," which is complete missing the point in front of them. Philosophers are saying it. Look at Heidgger's What is Metaphysics?. If I had more time I would get a quotes- and hopefully I will do that in the future. But there are so many instances of his criticism of the F-V distinction throughout his writings, it is hard to take seriously that I am inventing some OR. I wish I had made it up myself but I cannot take credit for Putnam's work, Leo Strauss' work and Martin Heidegger's. Allan Bloom also cites this distinction made by Heiddegger, and I should find more quotes from him too.
I agree the article needs improvement and expansion. A tag at the top to try to generate discussion as opposed to misunderstandings and mass deletion is good. Username5217 has little record of contributions and I cannot help but wondering his/her qualifications or background. It seems very unfair to say that Daryl Rice is not a valid philosopher, the section in question deals squarely with Rice's book, where he discusses the Fact-Value Distinction and Plato, those two things seem worthy of mention in his book, thus I regard it as worthy of attention here. There are several sources- philophers all- modern and ancient- cited. I reject the notion that if the presentation of this concept is any way POV. It is only trying to go beyond the definition and it has to be presented before it can be criticized. To write about Hitlker's racist theories you mention them firstly, then comment on their weakness and vicious implications. Same thing here I think. There has to be criticism worthy of including and the tone ofthe article itself needs improvement. But deletion is just frustrated censoring. --Mikerussell 13:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Distinct?

Are facts and values distinct? First, let us define the two terms. A fact is generally an accurate description of something, and less usually, the thing which is thus described. For example, it is a fact that the computer I am typing this on has a black keyboard (as of the time I write this). Facts may be evaluated through observation or other objective methods as either true or false, and thus are in the realm of logic. A value is a bit harder to describe, but I can give examples galore. "Death is bad, and therefore we should avoid it." "Pain is good; it reminds us we're alive." "Copyright laws stifle creativity." This category of statements is impossible to describe without bringing into play a second duality: good or bad. At this point, you must realize that you personally have an opinion about "good or bad". You may consider them objective or subjective. You may consider them equivalent to "right and wrong" or "good and evil". Your personal ontology comes into play here -- your view of what categories of things exist, and how they interact. I consider "good or bad" to be in the realm of the emotional, "wise or foolish" to be in the philosophical realm (a junction of the logical and emotional), and "right or wrong" to be in the moral realm (a junction of logical, emotional and physical). Since the two last realms I just mentioned (the philosophical and the moral) include the emotional, values can be found there, too. Now, I defined "true or false" to be the concern of logic. My distinction depends on defining logic as something inherently different than emotion. This is not to say they cannot coexist; philosophy would be mere mind games if the emotional were not part of it, and it would be an unresolvable mass of arguing without logic. Law is nothing without both values and truth. The part of this that may be hardest to swallow is that, though emotions may be shared within a community or an entire nation, they are inherently subjective. Thus values, which cannot exist without emotions, are inherently subjective and personal, and as such, distinct from truth. That is to say, values may contain truth, but they also contain emotion, without which they cannot exist. And thus they are distinct. --205.201.141.146 20:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Indepent of how true or factual your argument it is considered Original Research by wikipedia rules and therefore it may not be used on wikipedia, according to wikipedia's values and rules. C mon 20:46, 2 July 2007 (UTC)