Talk:Facial feminization surgery

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Contents 1 list of surgeons 2 Surgical procedures 3 Revising external links 4 Number of surgeons 5 links 6 Assessment

[edit] list of surgeons

• It is not appropriate to link Physicians personal/commercial websites to either biographic or descriptive articles. Too much potential for conflicts of interestDroliver 04:15, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
• Recently, the list of surgeons has been removed by Droliver without discussion or note in these talk pages, with the claim that it is promotional. I disagree with the characterization of the physician list. I do not believe it promotes any given surgeon when all the major such surgeons are listed. In this context I do not believe this list is at all promotional. Those surgeons hardly need promotion, when their waiting lists are already six months or more deep. I also believe it is important to list these people so that nobody ever gets the misimpression that such surgery is performed primarily by anyone other than reputable, accredited plastic surgeons who are members of the ASPS and other relevant organizations. In this specific case, I also believe that it is important to humanize the existence of this surgery with the names of its actual practitioners. Let us not disappear the FFS surgeons to an anonymous status, when the work they do is so vitally important to its recipients. Removal of the surgeon list also decreases the verifiability of this article's contents. (That is another matter which should be addressed - this article needs some reference citations at its end.) There may be another reasons that the list of names should be maintained. Please feel free to add to the list. I will wait to restore this list until others have had an opportunity express there opinions. Janniejdoe 01:28, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
• In this instance I don't believe there is much potential for conflict of interest. First, none of the surgeon's themselves appear in involved in the creation or maintenance of this page. Second, the page provides basic general information. Third, most of the well known practitioners are listed and provided in alphabetical order. Fourth, the listed surgeons are hardly in need of "extra" business, since of all them have quite long waiting lists. Fifth, their potential patients are generally internet connected and quite likely to utilize searches to locate informaton about them. Sixth, given the nature of this particular type of surgery, and the generous people who perform it often at risk of criticism from some biased groups, should not be hidden from view or made to appear marginalized in any way. Janniejdoe 01:47, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Surgical procedures

I run a website where I advise people on FFS and have some experience in this area. I feel that the list of procedures was overly technical, repetitious and contains procedures which are not feminisation. I will give some examples: Terms like “submalar augmentation” may go over the heads of many lay readers and I feel they should be replaced by terms like “cheek implants” which describe the same thing in terms that almost anyone can understand. “Submalar augmentation” would be more appropriate on a page specifically discussing the technicalities of cheek implants. The terms: • Rhinoplasty • Nasal tip and nasal alar refinement • Nasal Dorsum reduction • Osteotomy of the bony pyramid of the nose ...are in fact all rhinoplasty. Again, I feel that the technical specifics of rhinoplasty like “osteotomy of the bony pyramid” would be better placed on a page about rhinoplasty rather than a page giving an overview of FFS. Finally, procedures like neck lift are not FFS even though they are often performed at the same time. With all this in mind I have completely re-written the list of procedures to eliminate the unnecessary technical terms, repetitions and non FFS procedures (though I have included at the bottom some of the non-FFS procedures that are often performed at the same time). The list now contains 11 procedures instead of the original 21 and I’ve also included the basic reasoning behind the procedures.

I have made other revisions too: I have removed the section reffering to FFS having often "amazing results" because although I agree with this sentiment, I feel this is opinion and not appropriate in an encyclopedia entry. I have included hair transplantation within FFS as it is now often performed by FFS surgeons as part of FFS. I have also included a mention of the people who seek FFS. Finally, I have removed the reference to FFS surgeons being less common than SRS surgeons as I know of no evidence to support this. Shoebill 12:54, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revising external links

• I believe it is important to list the well-known, accredited, practitioners of this rarified, medical specialty. The list will never be long because of its rarified nature. I also believe it is important to provide what may be redundant explanations of various terms, because this is a general ^pedia, whose audience may not be entirely familiar with the subject matter.user:janniejdoe
• I just linked the Lawrence and BeginningLife FFS pages directly, and replaced the linkspam added on 03:58, 29 July 2005 by User:Shwilk to a site promoting Jeffrey Spiegel. The site in question [1] lifts most of its content from the FFS section on my site at tsroadmap.com. [2] Jokestress 15:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

• Looks fine to me - Ali-oops^✍ 16:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Removing same site again for same reason. Compare my original page [3] with this site's copy of my original page. [4] Jokestress 21:20, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

• I Would like to remove BeginningLife FFS pages link for a number of reasons, the link is broken and since the site promotes only doctors that pay for space on there pages it would fall under a spam. Another issue with the BeginningLife site is that they do not allow anyone to talk about problems they have had from surergy preformed by Douglas Ousterhout. I am adding Trinity Rose's [5]http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net/ffs_procedures.html ffs procedures to the external links since it does cover the procedures very well and does list the sourse of information. 15 May, 2008 Freeinfoforall

• Another item I would like to cover is that there are a alot more FFS surgeons then people want to admit to since it takes business away from who ever they think is the best doctor. Take a look at Trinity's FFS and SRS surgeon list [6] http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net/intro.html and you can find tons on there. I can pick out 15 surgeons that do FFS from there easy. 15 May, 2008 Freeinfoforall —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.185.64.39 (talk) 12:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

 Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appeared to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. 

Reverted external links. Because user Alison was not NPOV for several reasons. User did not take the time to discuss removal of link in question [7]http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net/ffs_procedures.html here is the discussions page, User did not follow [8]Wikipedia:External links guideline for removing links]. Trinity's Facial Feminization Surgery FFS procedures link [9]http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net/ffs_procedures.html lists informational contrubations by noted Facial Feminization Surgery FFS doctors/surgeons like:

This Surgeon Dr. Gary Alter (Who has preformed Facial Feminization Surgery and Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS)thousands of people Has also been a featured Plastic surgeon on "Doctor 90210 the TV series".

There is also noted Feminization Surgery FFS surgeon Dr. Mark Zukowski (There have been a great many debates between Dr. Douglas Ousterhout and Dr. Mark Zukowski about facial feminization surgery procedures for the fast five years) Another note of interest is Trinity's facial feminization surgery was presented case study by Dr. Mark Zukowski. Dr. Mark Zukowski Has also been a featured Pastic surgeon on "MTV's I Want A Famus Face the TV series".

Also there is Dr. Yvon Menard And Dr. Pierre Brassard Who are extremely well know for both Facial Feminization Surgery and Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS)

There are others Also.

There are more references and detail on [10]http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net/ffs_procedures.html Trinity's Link] then there are offered on the wikipedia's Facial Feminization Surgery article. You have to ask yourself why a link of such high merit for the page itself was removed and think to yourself something is wrong. A noted of interest is that if you take a look at the Facial Feminization Surgery article and you will notice there is a dead link for http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm Noted as "Facial Feminizing Surgery (FFS) Info and Links (with photo gallery)" which is a dead link and I noted this above on this talk page on 15 May, 2008 and I thought it needed to be removed and asked for opinions before I do so.

You also have to question the intention of user Alison because the user removed a live link with so much helpful information per [11]Wikipedia:External links guideline]and without checking this page first. Then you also have to question the same user over leaving the dead link for http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm Noted as "Facial Feminizing Surgery (FFS) Info and Links (with photo gallery)" in the page. This may or may not suggest a personal bias towards the author Trinity Rose of the site [12]http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net/ffs_procedures.html Trinity's FFS Procedures Page]

Alison is Becky Allison of www.drbecky.com Noted of interests to NPOV has a vested interest in promoting Douglas Ousterhout which is evident by the copyrighted works by Douglas K. Ousterhout, M.D., D.D.S. on her website http://www.drbecky.com/dko.html The same content is used by Douglas K. Ousterhout, M.D., D.D.S. to promote his practice and this very much sugests a working relationship either in the past or present. Also User has had Facial Feminizing Surgery with Douglas K. Ousterhout which is no big secret. Users site is also in direct competion with Trinity's for user ratings which would also suggest this was not NPOV.

It is also no big secret there is a bias towards Trinity or her site by fans or promoters of Douglas K. Ousterhout's practice since Trinity wrote about her bad surgery experience with him Trinity's FFS with Dr. Douglas Ousterhout

All I have done is presented th facts noting more and I have provided proof of the facts.

18 May, 2008 Freeinfoforall

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits.
Any further vandalism will result in your being blocked from editing Wikipedia. This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits, such as the one you made to Facial_feminization_surgery.
Any further vandalism will result in your being blocked from editing Wikipedia. Please Please I beg of Wikipedia please lock this page and please remove it from any admins that tries useing it to promote the views of only one doctor views based on money or based on the agenda of controling the market for Facial feminization surgery. Signed by User:Freeinfoforall

• Reverted external links. Because popups not restricted [13]Wikipedia:External links guideline for removing links]. User did not follow

[14]Wikipedia:External links guideline for removing links].

User AliceJMarkham and user Alison Did and even click on the link of the link to see what the link was about they just seen that the site was about Trinity and undid th edits. How do I know this you are asking yourself. This is because I made a mistake when did a copy from one of the origeral links there * "http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm Facial Feminizing Surgery (FFS) Info and Links" (with photo gallery), And I forgot to edit the website address address code of the code to place in Trinity website address so it turnd out like this * "http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm Trinity's Facial Feminizing Surgery (FFS) Procedures Info"

If you tried in clicking on Trinity's Facial Feminizing Surgery (FFS) Procedures Info you woud end up going to a dead link page for http://beginninglife.com/FFS.htm instead of Trinity's Facial Feminizing Surgery (FFS) Procedures Info page at http://www.facialfeminizationsurgery.net/ffs_procedures.html

Take a look at this undo page and you will understand what I am talking about the link would of took them to them to a dead page like I am talking about.

Still both User AliceJMarkham and user Alison left the dead link * Facial Feminizing Surgery (FFS) Info and Links (with photo gallery) alone and did not edit it.

There is no NPOV on the Facial feminization surgery artical

Please Please I beg of Wikipedia please lock this page and please remove it from any admins that tries useing it to promote the views of only one doctor views based on money or based on the agenda of controling the market for Facial feminization surgery. Signed by 18 May, 2008 Freeinfoforall

If you look at what Alison and I reverted, [15] and [16], you'll note that the IP editor added a duplication of an existing link and that duplication was reverted. If they were trying to update a dead link, that's not what they did. --AliceJMarkham (talk) 05:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Sysops do not make content decisions. If you have reasonable input from other doctor's and their views, then by all means present them. This doesn't mean conduct a smear campaign against XY doctor, or whatever, it means put in information from those other doctors in a factual, and encyclopedic way. I read Trinity's page, and her experience, it sucks, and it's horrible, and hey, there are a lot of people who suck. I've read numerous glowing reports of a particular plastic surgeon who denied to even give me a consult for breast augmentation, because he "treats the whole person" and that he can deny someone for any reason at any time because it's elective surgery. (Apparently, oblivious that as his services are open to the public, he can't reject patients on the basis of race, sex, sexual orientation or gender identity or expression, as dictated in the AMA's ethics guidelines.) Just because one person was treated in a particularly poor way, doesn't mean that person is bad for everyone. I've had to deal with individuals in the trans community (and especially the LGBT community at large) tell me that I need to fix things, that don't need to be fixed, because my actions intrude upon their personal concept of transsexualism. I've been a patient of Anne Lawrence, I would definitely recommend her if you feel you might be autogynephilic, she can do a lot to treat you, however, if you don't subscribe to her trans world view, then you're going to clash heads with her (like I did), if you integrate well with the greater community of your gender of identity, and have little reason to sequester yourself in the trans community or the larger LGBT community as a whole, you're going to get hate from people who disagree with your actions, and feel that you need a strong deep emotional bond with the trans community and LGBT community... it's not enough to simply be a supporter, for some people. By their nature, negative opinions are poorly thought out opinions. You're in such a rush to remember things in a way that support and justify your position that you're quite unlikely to come up with a fair opinion. Likewise, glowing praise should be treated with the same grain of salt. Did Dr. O screw up on Trinity? It's likely hard to say that he didn't. Did she do anything to provoke the situation? She probably did, knowingly or unknowingly. That's how the world happens. Specifically, this article shouldn't target a single surgeon's views about FFS, and should include a consensus view agreeable to all major FFS surgeons. If you think something needs to be fixed, then work on it, rather than plastering a hate-filled, but properly cautionary tale onto the external links of a slightly relevant article. --Puellanivis (talk) 06:03, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Number of surgeons

Is this even true anymore? "there seem surprisingly fewer highly experienced and skilled surgeons than those practicing SRS" There are only two major surgeons doing SRS in the United States (for example), but there are four major surgeons offering FFS. --Marumari 20:49, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] links

Added support group link. However, there are horrible bots around that keep trying to undo it. I have repeatedly reverted their undos. The link is legit, to a non-profit support group whose hosts and members are ffs patients. 75.172.75.141 (talk) 13:56, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Links to support groups do not comply with our external links guideline, or with the policy 'What wikipedia is not' (not a repository of links section). --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 00:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment

This article might meet the "B" class guidelines if it had at least one general reference. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)