Talk:FA Cup

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[edit] Official name

As far as I know, the full name of the competition is Football Association Challenge Cup Trophy--Nitsansh 00:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

According to the FA 'The Cup shall be called "The Football Association Challenge Cup".' Matthewmayer 01:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)


There are 207 associations in FIFA today. FIFA is The Association in football. England, like 206 other nations, has an association. England has the special place of being the first FA, of having invented the game. And, rightly so, I think the article should mention this, if desired. However, England's FA is not FIFA and so referring to it as "The Association" I think is highly misleading and should be avoided.

Other nations have open cups for their football associations, England is not the only one. I don't know about other countries, but the USA has one. I added links to/from England's open cup and the USA's. Suggestion: why not a separate page with a list of all the open cup tournaments in the world? If so, why not have that link replace my link to the US Open Cup. --da bum 16:37, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

  • See the template at the bottom of the page. The name of the F.A. Cup is the "F.A. Cup". I'm reverting again. - fchd 17:15, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
  • Yes, I see the links. Under "National Football Cups." This is good. It links your FA Cup to similar competitions around the world. That's part of what I was talking about. Thank you. But, as for the name. The name is "FA Cup." Sure. But, it is England's "FA Cup." It is not the world's FA Cup. This distinction is important and needs to be made clear.da bum 18:49, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
Not really. The Football Association - whose cup it is - is not called the "English" Football Association. --Robdurbar 23:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Surely, to every person born and raised in England it's obvious that "The FA" is in England. But, this is an online encyclopedia. Used, potentially, by people from around the world. People of different cultures. By people who are new to the sport. And young school children doing research for a short paper for school. A lot of different people use the encyclopedia. You can't assume that the reader knows anything at all about soccer or the history of the game. So, the article must be written in very plain terms: "In England, there is this thing called a 'football association' and it has this very big tournament called the FA Cup." In Kicker Magazine, sure, it would be safe to assume everyone already knows. But, this isn't Kicker Magazine, it's an online encyclopedia and so my main point is we can't assume the readers will already come here knowing anything at alll about the sport.

[edit] Venues

The first finals (up to around 1914) were indeed played at the Crystal Palace, but not at the National Sport and Recreation Centre which was established after WWII. I think they were played on the cricket ground.Bebofpenge 02:05, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Arsenal/Sheffield United

Wasn't there an incident a few years agon in the FA Cup where Arsenal beat Sheffield Wednesday on a disputed goal and then offered to replay the game because of it? I'm sorry, I am just a Yank and don't know the details, but I would think it would be a good addition to the Notable Events section.--Gangster Octopus 23:25, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it was Arsenal vs Sheffield United in 1999.[1]. As I can recall it: United played the ball out because one of their players got injured. From the throw-in, Nwankwo Kanu (on his Arsenal debut) received the ball and ran through the Sheff U defence before crossing for Marc Overmars to tap it in. Sheff U manager Steve Bruce got upset and ordered his players off (an act which should have been severely punished). Somehow the players came back and played the remainder of the match, which Arsenal won 2-1. Afterwards, Kanu was upset as he was unaware of the custom in England to return the ball to the team that played it out (if they played the ball out in order for an injured player to receive treatment). Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger generously offered to replay the match. Steve Bruce wanted the replay in Sheffield, but it had to take place at Arsenal. The home team won 2-1. Again.[2]
Slumgum | yap | stalk | 23:53, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Royal Marines

Someone told me yesterday that during the war the Cup, after being won by Portsmouth in 1939 was consigned to the safe keeping of the Royal Marines. It did the rounds of various peoples private homes in Portsmouth during the conflict. It seems to me as thought his is a bit of history worth recording in the article, even though its unlikely ever to be verified. Frank.corr 08:21, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Famous Shock Results

We need some sort of policy on this section to avoid it balooning. For example, two more results have been added from this Saturday's matches, the Burton 1 Peterbrough 0 game and Hartlepool 1 Tamworth 2 game. These results are notable in the context of one season, but also occur every year.

I would suggest the following needs to occur for a result to be 'famous':

  • The teams need to have two spereate leagues between them (e.g. level 2 club v level 5 club)
  • Where the result occurs in a later round, this rule could be relaxed (e.g. a level 3 club beating a level 1 club in a quarter or semi final)
  • Other results might be notable if the team who loses in particualrly well known, or the team who wins is particularly obsucre

Thoughts? Robdurbar 10:40, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the particulars, but there needs to be some criteria applied when choosing which shock results to include. We need to deal with fact, not opinion as to what is and isn't a shock. Looking at the list, some giant-killing acts are by clubs who have been in the Premier League in the last few years. For example, a loss by a top flight club to Wimbledon in 1975 would be a huge difference to a loss by a top flight club to Wimbledon in 1995. Losing to a top-flight club in the final eg. 1987 or 1988- can that ever be a true shock? (Coventry finished above Spurs in 1987 and it's still on the shock list). Therefore, some context needs to be applied, i.e. Why was it a shock and which divisions were the two clubs in? Did the 'big' club field a weak XI or were all their superstars humbled?
Also, should we look at the clubs' status, either at the time of the shock (hard to find out) or at the end of that season? Or at the end of the previous season? eg. Wrexham-Arsenal 1992 as it was 1991's 92nd vs 1st.
Here's three examples for one shock result:
  • Shrewsbury Town 2 Everton 1 (2003, Round 3)
    • In 2003, Shrewsbury were relegated from the Football League and Everton finished fourth in the Premiership.
    • In 2002, Shrewsbury finished 9th in Div. 3 and Everton finished 9th in the Premiership.
    • Emerging England starlet Wayne Rooney and his Champions-League-chasing teammates were humbled by Shrewsbury, a third division club struggling to retain their league status.
Maybe a statistical approach could enable us to choose the top 20 shocks, to prevent the list from growing exponentially.
Slumgum 01:37, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Robdurbar - you're right about this list getting out of hand. Brentford 2 Sunderland 1 today was hardly a shock at all. And surely getting a replay can't really count, can it?

I'll second that. Sunderland, rock-bottom of the Prem, away to a decent league one side. We all saw that one coming. Hardly up there with Birmingham v Kidderminster or Shrewsbury v Everton--Ukdan999 01:41, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
My point is that we therefore need either certain criteria, reduce the number on the list dramaticaly to include only the biggest shocks, or ...? Robdurbar 16:08, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


  • Chester City 0 Ipswich Town 0 (2006-07, Round 3) was placed into this category today but I promptly removed it. I don't see how a draw at this stage between teams 2 leagues apart can be classed as a famous shock result'. TN2006 18:34, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I also removed todays wins by Forest and Swansea over sides struggling near the bottom of the premier. Third level sides beating first level sides or sides two divisions apart beating each other is not uncommon and if we include all these, then the list would become impossibly long. I would suggest that there should be a gap of three divisions before we include any such results or else there should be a set number of league places - say 50 as a minimum as a struggling league one side beating Chelsea say would be a shock. Valenciano 19:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I removed Palace beating Liverpool in 2002 - two teams one level apart - a mild surprise certainly but not a major shock of the sutton beating coventry variety. Similarly I again removed Swansea's win over Sheffield Utd and Forest's win over Charlton. In both cases the winning teams are flying high in League One and the losing teams facing relegation from the Premier so it's not unlikely that both teams involved in each tie will be playing in the same division next season. It's interesting to note that on the football predictions group that I'm on,[[3]] out of 31 people predicting for the Forest game, 13 forecast a Forest win with only 12 predicting a Charlton win. It's a small sample but it does suggest that it was hardly a shock given Charlton's recent dire form. In future I would suggest that we apply RobDurbars criteria above or go with my suggested 50 league places between as a rough guide. Valenciano 15:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Shock results are so frequent and there are too many to put on this page..

Would it not make more sense to create a new article, 'Famous Shock Results', to link to and save space on this page..?

Alistairlp 15:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I just added 2 'Division 3' wins over top flight teams this weekend, then discover they had already been previously removed before.Statto74 10:12, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

I've taken the liberty of merging both "famous shock results" sections. It would be good if we could get some sort of consensus on what constitutes a shock result so that we would have some sort of guideline in future, otherwise the list will become impossibly long. As for the two that you've added - see my reasoning above. The Forest win wasn't really a shock at all as a lot of people saw it coming. In both cases a third level team chasing promotion beat a first level team facing relegation - in situations like that where both teams are likely to be playing in the same division next season it's dubious. Furthermore, while both results may be notable in the context of this season, such results happen every year and thus they certainly don't meet the "famous" criteria as the average footy fan is likely to have forgotten them by next year. I would suggest that both teams should have either 3 or 2 and a half divisions between them. Exceptions could be made for later rounds ie semis and final which are likely to be remembered or maybe for the top teams like Chelsea, Man U, Liverpool or Arsenal losing to third level opponents. I'll hold off from reverting any more until we get a consensus. Valenciano 12:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Well I'll reassert my original proposals:
  • That there are two full divisions between the teams. For example, a League Two side would have to beat a Premiership side; or a Conference side beating a Championship sdie; Conference North beating a League One sie
  • That at the Quater-Final/Semi-Final stages this be relaxed slightly so that a victory by teams with one division between them be noted (I'm thinking of that painful Leicester loss to Wycombe a few years back)
  • That if the losing 'giant' is a Legaue Two or Conference side, the winning team would have to be very obscure
  • That either exceptionally heavy defeats (say by four or more goals), or a losing 'giant' who was perhaps the previous season's champions or a top five premiership team, we would relax these regulations
No offence to Swansea fans, but such victories happen every year. If we're listing 'famous' ones, then we need to have a relatively high bar to keep the list from expanding massively.
As for alternative statsitical/top twenty shocks/50 positions between approaches - I'm all ears!

Robdurbar 16:34, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Do people think that results where the 'giant' is league one or below (e.g. walsall v slough) should stay? As good an achievment as this is, I'm not sure whether it counts as 'famous' or not? --Robdurbar 16:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that they are. I think people are missing the point of the section which is for FAMOUS shock results - not just including any old surprise result. Your criteria above are fine as we need a bit of flexibility rather than a rigid statistical cutoff. Wimbledon beating Liverpool and Sunderlands win over Leeds were memorable shocks, games featuring lower league sides are unlikely to be remembered outside of those towns involved. I've therefore removed the following

Chesterfield 0-1 Basingstoke Town Burscough 3-2 Gillingham Slough Town 2-1 Walsall

Also Cardiff City 2-1 Leeds United is dubious as Cardiff missed automatic promotion to Level 2 by just 1 point although Leeds were then a top five club but I've left it there for now. Swindon losing to Stevenage is another borderline case although more notable for being an away win. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Valenciano (talk • contribs) 18:35, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

Agreed. We need to come somewhere in between just using dry and statistics and making reasonable value judgements. Bare in mind the Swindon v Stevanage was a Premiership v Conference game at the time. Leeds being a Champions Leauge club at the time was also my reasoning behind that one.
As for Wimbledon... I kinda know what you mean but can we really label a victory by one club over another in the same league a 'famous shock'? I'm uncertain.
BTW, another way to do this would be to demand sources for each result that back up our 'famous shock claim'... Robdurbar 19:02, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I think this section has sort of lost it's way by being determined solely on the gap between the sides rather than the actual "shock" value of the result. For instance, Wimbledon beating Liverpool would come up more often as a "shock" result rather than Vauxhall Motors beating Queens Park Rangers a few years ago (which isn't in the article either). Was Tottenham's 1901 Final a "Shock" at the time? - fchd 18:10, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Well I asked the question before - was Wimbledon beating Liverpool really a 'shock' or just a memorable final (I ask it in all curiousness - I'm too young to remember it!)? To bring it round, if Reading beat Man U or Chelsea in the cup final - it would be unexpected, a memorable final etc but is one team beating another in the same league a shock? I don't really think so. Certainly, though, the whole shock thing isn't dictated by such rules and whilst I think these should be indicative, they're not meant to be hard and fast exclusive rules. --Robdurbar 18:49, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
I think Wimbledon / Liverpool would be one of the exceptions to strict rules. Liverpool were the dominant team of the era and arguably reached their pinnacle that season, stringing together a 29 game unbeaten run consisting of numerous 4 goal wins. A few weeks before the cup final they'd thrashed Forest 5-0. Few people gave Wimbledon any chance and I remember in Match magazine and Shoot magazine at the time a number of pundits suggesting 4-0 or 5-0 wins.

Overall I think such a section is always going to be problematic. Including links to justify results might be one way but the difficulty there is that the sources themselves will often be subjective and/or biased. Valenciano 19:26, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Where's Wimbledon's defeat of Liverpool??? --Howard the Duck 06:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Why is Forest vs. Charlton a 'shock result'? Bookies would probably have given you better odds on Forest! That really ought to be removed.


[edit] Winners' Medal question

When does a player qualify for a winners' medal? If he is on the bench on the finals but did not play a single game throughout the tournament, does he get a medal? If another player played in all the qualifying rounds but does not appear on the bench in the finals because he was not selected or suspended or injured, does he get a medal? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.243.216.4 (talk • contribs) 11 April 2007

[edit] Providing a little too much

"Arsenal is the only club to win doubles in distinct decades, and have in fact won in three different decades.". I don't think the statement is of much value when the 1998 and 2002 wins are so close together. At the very least it should be reduced to "Arsenal have won doubles in three different decades.", but I don't see the value of the inclusion at all as "decades" really don't have much importance. The fact Arsenal have won doubles 3 times is great and is the important part. Leave the interpretation of the other data to the reader. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Optimizerone (talk • contribs) 05:50, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Current text seems to be NPOV now. Paulbrock (talk) 17:31, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect win totals

The win totals listed for Manchester United is incorrect. Manchester United has won the FA Cup 11 times, not 12: 1909, 1948, 1963, 1977, 1983, 1985, 1990, 1994, 1996, 1999, 2004. Unless someone can explain to me where the 12th win is, this is an error that should be corrected as soon as possible.

Mranthro 18:44, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Current text is now correct. Paulbrock (talk) 17:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect 2007 result

The 2007 result is wrong, vandalism i expect as nobody can have failed to ntice the fact Ronaldo did not score and Drogbas fine effort.

That's just some MUFC vandal on the net hahaha --Howard the Duck 06:51, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
Results no longer listed here. Paulbrock (talk) 17:33, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Famous shock results revisited

Once again this section seems really unsatisfactory. Editors seem to be missing the point that the section is not for shock results but for famous shock results. Recently we have had a number of Shrewsbury town results added which I doubt that most people outside of Shropshire would know. The shrewsbury results aside, the shocks seem okay up as far as birmingham versus kidderminster but after that things go awry with people adding their own teams surprise wins thereafter, most of which are long forgotten by neutrals. With the third round approaching and the strong likelihood of people adding their favourite teams results, we really need to have a look at this. It may be a case of simply scrapping the list and replacing it with a few notable results backed by third party sources. Valenciano 11:39, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

List was scrapped, so should no longer be a problem. Paulbrock (talk) 17:36, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Countries

In the infobox, shouldn't Wales be included under countries as teams from Wales participate in the FA Cup? --Mas 18 dl 11:39, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pre-Third Round Upsets/Giant Killers

In the small section of giant killers, anyone else think there should be a mention of Chasetown from 12/07. No I am not a Chasetown fan. Yes it was before the third round proper. But the fact that a team from the EIGHTH tier of the English system made it to the third round should worth something. No team that low has ever made the third round. And a "minnow" going that far, isn't that what shock results and "giant-killing" is all about in the FA Cup? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nygoodliving (talk • contribs) 19:53, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Giant-killing seems fairly self explanatory - "killing a giant." I doubt even the most optimistic Vale fan considers their club a giant. There's also the concern of 'recentism.' In 1999 Bedlington Terriers, a club at the same equivalent level as Chasetown, beat Colchester, a level three side and that result is now forgotten. Time will tell if the chasetown result is remembered. A team from the eighth tier making it to the third round is indeed notable and that's why the Chasetown result is in its proper place in the article in the notable events/history section. Duplicating it is completely unnecessary and does a disservice to proper giant killing results which have stood the test of time - Sutton beating Coventry, Wimbledon's feats in the 70's, Altrincham's win over top flight Birmingham etc etc. None of those results is included in that section which is a brief summary. Valenciano (talk) 20:08, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wimbledon

Wimbledon do not exist anymore, they are seperate to both MK Dons and AFC Wimbledon. AFC were set up before Wimbledon moved to Milton Keynes and changed their name therefore technically they could have met each other in the FA Cup. Even though MK Dons have now given back the trophies won to AFC. AFC and Wimbledon are a sepperate entity, its not like Small Heath becoming Birmingham City, AFC is a different club set up by fans in response to the owners of Wimbledon moving to Milton Keynes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xenomorph1984 (talk • contribs) 00:40, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

  • I'm sorry, this does not tally with the facts. Wimbledon F.C. moved to Milton Keynes, played there as Wimbledon F.C. for a season (at least) before changing name to Milton Keynes Dons. There is a clear lineage. AFC Wimbledon, while worthy, are completely irrelevant in this context. Perhaps it is better to remove the "No longer exists" markings, as it doesn't particularly add anything, and leads to disputes like this? - fchd (talk) 06:53, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Minnow

Why link minnow to the disambig page minnow rather than the term implied in the lead as in underdog (competition)? Can someone explain why we expect the reader to click through twice when we can easily put them in the direction of the correct term with just one click? Peanut4 (talk) 23:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks fixed now. Paulbrock (talk) 17:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Notable achievements / history section

There seems to be a bit of overlap between these two sections. I'd be inclined to eliminate the natable achievements altogether and move it to the history section, except where we can't tie the achievements to a specific season. As a start, Curtis Weston and DiMatteo's feats are certainly notable but I'm going to move them to the history of the cup article and other feats which can be linked to specific seasons should probably follow for consistency reasons. Valenciano (talk) 17:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Venue

This article says that "The team who plays at home is decided when the matches are drawn", but doesn't explain how it is decided. I don't know how it is decided, someone how knows it could, please, add it to the article. Thanks. --ClaudioMB (talk) 19:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FA Cup "Champions"

I have never heard the phrase "fa cup champions" A Minor edit to text box so that it reads "holders" or "winners" would read a lot better IMHO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Statto999 (talk • contribs) 10:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)