Talk:Extra-judicial killing

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[edit] Requested move

We should use the singular and not the plural, which would be Extra-judicial killing. I also think that Extrajudicial killing, without the hyphen, would be acceptable, as would Extrajudicial execution. --Descendall (talk) 05:57, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Move completed. --Descendall (talk) 00:45, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with execution?

  • I would oppose this. Extra-judicial killing, as used by the human rights community, is distinct from execution, which suggests the involvement of state actors using some process (usually public): this is the source of the term "Extra-judicial". Extra-judicial killing, on the other hand, is more like Forced disappearance (it to which it might more logically be merged). Either way, the term is very widely used to collect "disappearances" (which are usually secret), and organizationally sponsored murder (by state OR non-state actors) which are quite public. The article may need a re-write, and segemnts of it may need to be merged, but some (possibly short) article should remain here. My two cents. T L Miles (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
  • IANAL but I think that, by definition, a summary execution is one that totally circumvents the judicial oversight. Geo Swan (talk) 18:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I generally disagree with the merging of related but distinct articles. I agree with this merge however. The way I see it there are multiple semi-related kinds of organized of semi-organized killings:
kind of killing actor notes
mob hits organized crime
  • With a few notable exceptions, always performed in the private sector, for the private sector.
  • Clearly totally illegal, so no need to mention that they are extrajudicial -- which means outside the law as opposed to illegal.
summary execution state actors
  • Generally only performed during martial law -- shooting looters for instance, when public safety precludes taking the time to take them into custody.
  • highly controversial.
  • authorized.
  • not clandestine.
  • authorized assassination
  • 007
  • liscenced to kill

state actors
  • totally authorized.
  • totally clandestine.
  • legality not always clear, depends on country.
  • Clearly illegal under US law.
decapitation state actors
  • totally authorized.
  • typically this term is used during wartime, for targeting the leaders of the enemy country -- treating them as military targets, even if they are technically civilians.
  • sometimes clandestine.
  • sometimes acknowledged afterwards.
  • legality not always clear, depends on country.
  • The USA made fifty decapitation attempts in 2003, against Saddam and his most senior leadership cadre.
    • The only success claimed was "Chemical Ali" -- but this claim was in error.
    • Dozens or hundreds of civilians were killed in these decapitation attempts.
    • The US military was authorized to launch depatitation attempts without further explicit civilian authorizaton, if they anticipated killing no more than 30 civilian bystanders.
  • extra-judicial killing
  • extrajudicial execution

state actor
  • Clandestine
  • Organized
  • Not officially authorized, to preserve plausible deniability.
  • Examples Project Phoenix, the Janjaweed.
  • Perps generally "off-duty" state personnel, acting on unofficial orders, or on hints, or on tacit hints that legal means won't work, and they should do whatever they can to take care of matters.
  • Sometimes attempts are made to make the killings look like the work of non-state volunteers.
  • Arguably also clearly illegal(?)
canonical vigilantes volunteers
  • semi-organized
  • no state involvement.
  • clearly illegal
manson-style lunatics
  • Organized, kind of.
  • clearly illegal.
  • I am including this in this list just to distinguish these killing from lone gunmen style murders.
  • Just a perception, but the tone of this article implies disapproval of the topic at hand. Even linking to Human Rights implies a judgment on the legality/illegality of the practice. Recommend the article stick to the facts -- extrajudicial execution is merely what it says: killing someone outside of the court process. Certainly, the spectre of Argentinian "forced dissapearances" is haunting. However, if one encounters a terrorist with his hands on the trigger of a nuclear weapon, would this be a good time to get on the telephone and discuss how quickly a warrant might be issued? Suggest a revision, eliminating the emotion from what is admittedly a highly-controversial and politically-charged topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pulyemyet (talk • contribs) 20:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Agree we should stick to the facts.
  • I question whether self-defense -- which using deadly force against a bomber with his finger on the trigger would be -- should be identified as an "extrajudicial killing". Isn't self-defense covered by the law? Mind you if that bomber is holding a dead-man switch, shooting him or her would not be self-defense, but suicide.
  • I don't understand your concern with referencing human rights groups. Could you cite specific passages where you think citing these references is a problem?
  • Beyond your concern with the use of human rights references, do you have other concerns? Could you cite some specific passages?
Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 22:41, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
  • I also oppose to this merging. Table by Geo Swan shows complexity of that.Biophys (talk) 20:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why not use examples where it's most common?

If it is most common here, "Extrajudicial killings and death squads are most common in the Middle East (mostly in Palestine and Iraq), Central America, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India and Kashmir several nations or regions in Equatorial Africa, Jamacia, Kosovo, many parts of South America, Chechnya, Russia, Uzbekistan, North Ossetia, parts of Thailand and in the Philippines," why is the United Kingdom, one of the few places in the world it apparently isn't "most common," one of the five examples given? As you have about 50 countries to pick from where it is "most common," the examples should all be from these "most common" countries or an explanation given as to why it's not "most common" in Northern Ireland, yet Northern Ireland was picked as an example. In particular the unsourced comments about England and Wales. --69.226.108.255 (talk) 17:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] was this page written by mugs?

the murder of damilola taylor is clearly not an extra-judicial killing, and certainly does not fall into the definition of what an extra judicial killing is at the beginning of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.235.33.15 (talk) 14:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)