Talk:Extermination order

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Contents

[edit] Discussion

[edit] Assassination Attempt

It was never proved that Orrin Porter Rockwell was ever connected with the assassination attempt on Governor Boggs. In fact, there is more evidence against the idea of Rockwell as the assassin then there is for it. The major source where I drew my conclusions from was...

  • Richard Lloyd Dewey, Porter Rockwell: a Biography, Paramount Books, ISBN 0961602406 (1986; Hardcover, 13th edition, 2002).
  • Numerous other sites and several Volumes of History of the Church that gave evidence for and against Rockwell.

My conclusion is that he is innocent, but since it is up for debate, that section of the article just needs to be re-written.
Potatosalad 23:28, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Legality

Despite the fact that the First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits making a "law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," General Boggs still enacted a law that was constitutinally illegal. The first Amendment protects the worshipping in any way they want, and also makes it illegal to make laws relative to one's religion. Madd the sane 17:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I watched "Utah, the Struggle for Statehood" last night on TV. It is a three-part series on the area that is now Utah, from when the Mormon pioneers arrived in 1847 until a few days after Utah obtained statehood on January 4, 1896. They covered three Supreme Court cases about 1890; all three were judged in the disfavor of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members. One of them upheld a law in Idaho that stripped Mormons of all of their rights of citizenship simply for their religious affiliation. If the Extermination Order would have made it to the Supreme Court of the time, I suspect that it would have also been upheld. Val42 02:24, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
True, but isn't the supreme court supposed to uphold the constitution and not undermine it? I'm sorry, I know I'm in a losing battle. --Madd the sane 03:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
You'd think so. But the only check on the US Supreme Court is the US Congress. Since the Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of the constitutionality of anything, if the Supreme Court makes a decision that is clearly "unconstitutional", is it really unconstitutional? If Congress does not remove those Supreme Court justices who voted for the "unconstitutional" decision, the decision will clearly stand. But what if Congress votes to remove the Supreme Court justices and they refuse to stand down, ruling that the "removal" was unconstituional? What we've been discussing (in our opinion) violates the constitution and Congress didn't act to remove the justices. The people of the time were behind (what we consider) the unconstituional acts of the Supreme Court and the failure to act by Congress. These were the circumstances of the time. Val42 03:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the only way that Governor Boggs's extermination order could be deemed "unconstitutional" is if it violated the Missouri Constitution. Rights protected in the First Amendment only applied to the Federal government until passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1868. The extermination order was issued in 1838 by a state official, not a federal official, so it falls outside the scope of First Amendment free exercise protections. So the above discussion is irrelevant. Kiggs24 01:44, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Even at that, the Constitution does not give any religion a blank check. The Mormons had greatly abused their position, antagonized their neighbors and generally raised mayhem. But, I notice that this is mostly filtered out of this article, drawing, as it does, mostly from Mormon-published resources. Pooua 06:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
The Supremacy Clause of the Constitution means that federal law is higher than state and local laws. All laws must adhere to the restrictions and liberties in the US Constitution. Your argument that the above is irrelevant is flawed. Also, the claims that "The

Mormons had greatly abused their position, antagonized their neighbors and generally raised mayhem" are well represented in the article, though it is not mentioned that there is great debate and much evidence to the contrary on this issue. This is far from sticking to "Mormon-published resources." In general, this was a nearly lawless time in a frontier state. Laws were often overlooked or ignored. Information was not nearly as available as now. All of this must be understood in context. Sorria2000 14:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Primary Source

I found the scan of the original document in the CES manual online. If anyone can find a better way to get an image of the primary source, it would be a good resource in this article. It looks to me like the image fits public domain, because you can't copyright an image of someone else's work (i.e., the State of Missouri), and the original document is old enough. But if it makes anyone edgy, please find a better source! Jerekson 22:52, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV and accuracy

this is clearly a very one sided LDS version of events. I am intending to make some additions to the article to show historical context. In the meantime, more info is available at http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/legacy1.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ianerc (talk • contribs)

When adding a POV dispute, editors are supposed to be specific about which items they dispute. While I agree that more can be added of how the Mormon militia including the galatin voting skirmish, background on why the Mormons attacked in response to rapes and a burned cabin at the battle of crooked river, and Rigdon's July sermon using the term "extermination" as a response to the term being used in the secret constitution (it was actually the first document to use the work "extermination" at the time) could be added, I see nothing factually incorrect about the article at a quick read. Please be more specific, or the POV notification will be removed. Lack of content and POV are two seperate issues. -Visorstuff 16:22, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Personally, I don't see anything wrong with another one sided view of this story. I mean, that's what everyone reads in their history books. The view portrayed in the history books is just as one sided, but no one has a problem with that. An example of this would be the fact that almost no history book found in any school classroom talks about "the examination order", or the mobs that sought out and killed many Mormons. Instead, they focus almost solely on the things like the "Mormon Battalion". If anyone is going to try to correct the one sided stories, it should be our one sided history books that we should target, not public online forums, which are far more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnnylingo (talk • contribs)
Overall I agree with Visorstuff. You'll have to be more specific because most the material in that link--the KSS failure and everything that happened post-Missouri, for example--doesn't seem related to the Order at all. Article doesn't look bad. Cool Hand Luke 23:48, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I do not notice anything that is blatantly obvious, but there are many statements that need to be referenced. As the article stands now, it needs work. Storm Rider (talk) 09:48, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Further, let us be diligent to ensure that the article is historically based and presents facts from both sides. The Tanner's reference from above can assist that we cover both sides. Frankly, history speaks for itself and to fear it removes reason; where reason is removed, faith is belittled. Storm Rider (talk) 10:00, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, only just got back to this. The POV of the article is that it implies that there was some unprovoked attack on a peaceful religious group. Which was not the case at the time. Additionally it makes allegations about 'rapes' and other atrocities that do not appear to have an historical basis.

Ian Erc

For a tag to be legitimate there must be clear reasons provided. Given the current focus, I am removing the tag; if someone feels strongly about it, please add it back with specific problems identified that allows corrections to be implemented to remove by concensus. --Storm Rider (talk) 10:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The article is still strongly POV, in that it downplays Mormon culpability while placing most of the blame on the Missourians. Most of the basis for the article are documents (newspapers and books) written by Mormons, so it is not surprising that they have a bias. There is no mention in the article, for example, of the statements made in the Mormon newspaper that the Mormons were destined to possess all the land. The Mormons moved into Missouri with the assumption that they had a deed from God to own the place, and some of them were very loud about that belief. Pooua 00:59, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The existence of the Danites is barely mentioned, and then only as a claim in a Missourian dispatch. Pooua 01:01, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean that the Mormons bear some contributory responsibility for a state governor the United States issuing an Extermination Order. That is a bit like making the victim responsible for the actions of the perpetrators, no? I think that plays as well as saying the Jews are responsible for their own genocide by Hitler. I suppose it can be done, but I think there is no excuse for any state or government anywhere in the world issuing an extermination order of any people. Just my two cents.
However, having said that all articles should be balanced. If there is another reputable source that meets your objective that explains why issuing an extermination order is acceptable action, by all means include it. --Storm Rider (talk) 01:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
The Mormons *were* perpetrators! That is what is missing in this article. Consider the reason that Joseph Smith had to leave Ohio--he set up an unchartered bank that failed, causing investors to lose millions. Then, he decides that the Mormons have been given Missouri by God, and the Mormons say so publicly. Mormon leadership became notorious in Missouri--as they were everywhere else they had passed--for theft, cheats and various other forms of law-breaking, which, if they explained at all, they excused under the guise of religion. And, as a point brought up by someone else in these comments, it was a Mormon leader who first brought up the issue of exterminating the other party, and it was certainly the Mormons who attacked an official government militia, killing some of its members. The Mormons took up arms, not just defensively, but also offensively. So, no, Mormons are not innocent victims in this matter, and any government would be justified in using lethal force to rid itself of violent insurrectionists. 168.127.0.52 03:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
That sounds like a perfectly logical decsion; if you steal, we will kill you. If you own a gun, we will exterminate not only you, but your entire family. If you have personal beliefs that differ from the main, then you are worthy of death. What is so shocking is that this is not some third world terroist, Muslim outback, we call this the United States of America. Not only was it approved then, it would be an approved action today; and we wonder why "Christians" have a bad reputation in the world, why there are atheists that reject the very concept of relgion. I reject your thoughts wholly and completely; you represent everything I despise in organized religion; however, if you want to document your postion with reputable sources go for it. While you are at it, you might want to check out Moutain Meadows Massacre and explain why those slaughtered travellers deserved it; if it is good for the goose it is good for the gander. Based upon your thinking if they are exterminated they deserve it. --Storm Rider (talk) 19:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of what you think of me, and regardless of what either of us thinks of morality of the incidents in 19th Century Missouri, this is not the place to argue such points. This is, instead, the place where the historical record is to be reflected. And, historically, significant numbers of Mormon leaders in 1838 Missouri were blood-thirsty. Pooua 07:10, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Blood-thirst? Seriously? Where's your historic reference for that? The blood-thirsty "Mormons" were those who had left the Church and were on the side of Missouri (and instigating much of the fighting) in fighting against the Mormons. Sorria2000 14:34, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations

I added a citiation and reformatted existing ones to match in a new Notes section. I also added the text of the order itself. If this is too much then it could be removed, since relevant portions are quoted in the first paragraph, however, I do think that there is value in seeing the entire order with quoted sections in context rather than simply linking to an external site. Bochica 02:19, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

The article found at the source link of http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Extermination_Order_%28Mormonism%29 says it need to be transwiki'd out of that project, and suggest moving it to http://en.wikisource.org/ -- is anyone up to doing that task as part of the collaboration of the month? -- 65.101.29.133 03:07, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Beginning of Conflict?

For the second time in about as many days, I find a phrase in the Background claiming that "conflict between the Mormons and the Missourians began" with some event in 1838. I took the phrase out, when it claimed that the conflict began with the Gallatin election day riot. Now, the phrase has returned, claiming that the conflict began with the speeches of Rigdon. But, the beginning of the conflict between the two dates back to 1831, just after Joseph Smith stated that the return of Jesus was imminent and God's City of Zion would be near Independence. Mormons began to swarm into the area to prepare for Jesus' return, causing considerable friction with the people who already lived in the area. So, I don't believe the article should state that the conflict began in 1838. Pooua 04:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

We probably just need to be more specific regarding what aspect of the conflict began on what day. According to historians, the physical conflict appears to have started with the Gallatin riot. Rigdon's speeches initiated a lot of agitation, but did not represent the beginning of direct physical conflict. Rigdon's speech was directed at the "mobs" - he had been tarred and feathered and apparently had pretty strong feelings about mob violence. Rigdon's speech frightened the existing Missouri settlers even more. A lot of Mormon settlers continued to move to Missouri (Zion), which also frightened the existing settlers because the Mormons were acquiring significant political power in the area. This was the major factor in the Gallatin riot. Bochica 13:34, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
For it to get to the point where Gallatin happened, violence had already taken place. Rapes, tar and featherings, house burning and other mob activities had already occurred (some mormons did house burnings and other mob activity as well). Gallatin was the most public display as it was in daylight, not under the guise of mobbing at night. Gallatin was not the first of the violence, but the first open violence.
I've noticed that the article states that Rigdon was the first to use the word extermination, which is then used as a way to say the extermination order was a response to this. The Secret Contstitution was actually the first to use the term, and we should update to fix, as Rigdon's sermon wording was in response to it. -Visorstuff 14:52, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
I noticed that BYU's online archive states that Rigdon's 4th of July speech "marked the beginning of the end of the Mormon colonies in Missouri." Apparently, the LDS branch makes Rigdon into their scapegoat for their troubles in Missouri. The fact that he was later excommunicated by Mr. Young makes him a likely candidate.
I don't know where I might claim the beginning of the end for the Mormons in Missouri is, but I am certain that the Mormons' troubles in Missouri did not start in 1838. I think the term I used in the article (though it was deleted by someone else) that Rigdon's speech marked the beginning of "the ultimate crescendo" in hostilities between Mormons and Missourians was accurate. Maybe that is too much "peacock" language, but it was accurate.
I haven't seen any good sources documenting the anti-Mormon Secret Constitution. Wikipedia does not have an entry for it. The sources for it on the Web that I have found are off-beat pro-Mormon sites (nothing even close to an authentic document). So, I doubt we could use that in this article. Pooua 23:46, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Although I don't think i have a copy anymore, BH Roberts Missouri conflicts book has it in there. I don't beleive that Rigdon's speech was the cause of demise of the saints in missouri - largely based on the lack of literacy of the Missourians. Who would have read it once printed? If they were there, possibly affect them, but his speech was more the excuse used by those who marshalled the typical uneducated proletarian masses against the mormons. Rumor more than content was the issue. In any case, extermination was not a term that originated with Rigdon. -Visorstuff 00:11, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I have not seen anyone apart from you, Visorstuff, claim that Rigdon's use of the word "extermination" was the first use of the term. I have not seen it in the article, nor do I see a reason to make it an issue. I also don't know what your source is for the literacy rate in Missouri, but the documentation used in this article shows that quite a number of Missiourians could read and write. Indeed, how would they read and sign the supposed Secret Constitution otherwise? Pooua 00:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
The "Secret Constitution" or "Manifesto of the Mob" can be found in History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 371-376. (It is referred to as the "Secret Constitution" in Roberts The Missouri Persecutions, p. 74.) Interesting document - it seems that the Missourians were very worried about the Mormons bringing in "free people of color" into the state and agitating their slaves. The document states that the settlers would remove the Mormons "peaceably if we can, forcibly if we must." Bochica 01:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
That would be the "History of the Church" vetted by Mormon authors, correct? That raises a red flag, to me. But, where did they get their info? What are their sources? Why can't I go to those same sources and get that information independently of the Mormon church? That is, if the Secret Constitution is not a Mormon document. Pooua 01:14, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, here's the entire document, including some of the people who signed it. I suppose some of those corrupt, deluded, fanatical, weak, designing, odious, slave tampering Mormon dregs could have cooked this up...

We, the undersigned, citizens of Jackson county, believing that an important crisis is at hand, as regards our civil society, in consequence of a pretended religious sect of people that have settled, and are still settling in our county, styling themselves "Mormons;" and intending, as we do, to rid our society, "peaceably if we can, forcibly if we must," and believing as we do, that the arm of the civil law does not afford us a guarantee, or at least a sufficient one, against the evils which are now inflicted upon us, and seem to be increasing, by the said religious sect, deem it expedient, and of the highest importance, to form ourselves into a company for the better and easier accomplishment of our purpose—a purpose which we deem it almost superfluous to say, is justified as well by the law of nature, as by the law of self-preservation. It is more than two years since the first of these fanatics, or knaves, (for one or the other they undoubtedly are) made their first appearance amongst us, and pretended as they did, and now do, to hold personal communication and converse face to face with the Most High God; to receive communications and revelations direct from heaven; to heal the sick by laying on hands; and, in short, to perform all the wonder-working miracles wrought by the inspired Apostles and Prophets of old. We believed them deluded fanatics, or weak and designing knaves, and that they and their pretensions would soon pass away; but in this we were deceived. The arts of a few designing leaders amongst them have thus far succeeded in holding them together as a society; and since the arrival of the first of them, they have been daily increasing in numbers; and if they had been respectable citizens in society and thus deluded, they would have been entitled to our pity rather than to our contempt and hatred; but from their appearance, from their manners, and from their conduct since their coming among us, we have every reason to fear that, with but very few exceptions, they were of the very dregs of that society from which they came, lazy, idle, and vicious. This we conceive is not idle assertion, but a fact susceptible of proof, for with these few exceptions above named, they brought into our country little or no property with them and left less behind them, and we infer that those only yoke themselves to the "Mormon" car who had nothing earthly or heavenly to lose by the change; and we fear that if some of the leaders amongst them, had paid the forfeit due to crime, instead of being chosen ambassadors of the Most High, they would have been inmates of solitary cells. But their conduct here stamps their characters in their true colors. More than a year since, it was ascertained that they had been tampering with our slaves, and endeavoring to sow dissensions and raise seditions amongst them. Of this their "Mormon" leaders were informed, and they said they would deal with any of their members who should again in like case offend. But how spacious are appearances. In a late number of the Star, published in Independence by the leaders of the sect, there is an article inviting free negroes and mulattoes from other states to become "Mormons," and remove and settle among us. This exhibits them in still more odious colors. It manifests a desire on the part of their society, to inflict on our society an injury that they know would be to us entirely insupportable, and one of the surest means of driving us from the country; for it would require none of the supernatural gifts that they pretend to, to see that the introduction of such a caste amongst us would corrupt our blacks, and instigate them to bloodshed. They openly blaspheme the Most High God, and cast contempt on His holy religion, by pretending to receive revelations direct from heaven, by pretending to speak unknown tongues, by direct inspiration, and by divers pretenses derogatory to God and religion, and to the utter subversion of human reason. They declare openly that their God hath given them this county of land, and that sooner or later they must and will have possession of our lands for an inheritance; and, in fine, they have conducted themselves on many other occasions, in such a manner, that we believe it a duty we owe to ourselves, our wives, and children, to the cause of public morals, to remove them from among us, as we are not prepared to give up our pleasant places and goodly possessions to them or to receive into the bosom of our families, as fit companions for our wives and daughters, the degraded and corrupted free negroes and mulattoes that are now invited to settle among us. Under such a state of things, even our beautiful county would cease to be a desirable residence, and our situation intolerable. We, therefore, agree (that after timely warning, and receiving an adequate compensation for what little property they cannot take with them, they refuse to leave us in peace, as they found us—we agree to use such means as may be sufficient to remove them, and to that end we each pledge to each other our bodily powers, our lives, fortunes and sacred honors. We will meet at the court house, at the town of Independence, on Saturday next, the 20th inst., [July], to consult on subsequent movements. Among the hundreds of names attached to the above document were: Lewis Franklin, jailor; Samuel C. Owens, county clerk; Russel Hicks, deputy county clerk; R. W. Cummins, Indian agent; James H. Flournoy, postmaster; S. D. Lucas, colonel and judge of the court; Henry Chiles, attorney-at-law; N. K. Olmstead, M. D.; John Smith, justice of the peace; Samuel Weston, justice of the peace; William Brown, constable; Abner F. Staples, captain; Thomas Pitcher, deputy constable; Moses G. Wilson and Thomas Wilson, merchants. fn

Bochica 01:47, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

What is your source for this document? Merely posting a bunch of words means nothing. Pooua 02:01, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I have carefully searched several copies of the so-called Secret Constitution or Manifesto of Mormon Opponents, but I have not found any mention of the word, "extermination" in it. Thus, even if the document is authentic, it does not provide evidence of use of the term "extermination" prior to its use by Rigdon. Pooua 02:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Associated articles

The article on General John Bullock Clark makes no mention of the role he played in carrying out the extermination order. I added a see also, but there really should be more of a description found there. -- 12.106.111.10 18:20, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

It was just a stub when I visited it. Are you familiar with stubs? I was disappointed that it was so brief, and a bit surprised that nothing in Wikipedia linked him to Order 44. I have not taken the time to add anything to it, but I am certain it could be expanded greatly. Pooua 00:49, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Haun's Mill

The Haun's Mill massacre is listed in the section marked "Consequences." However, the paragraph about the massacre admits that "the militia responsible for the massacre was not yet aware of the order at this time." Obviously, then, the Haun's Mill massacre WAS NOT a consequence of the Extermination Order. Therefore, it should be removed; it has no direct relationship to the specific event of this topic. Pooua 07:25, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

you are correct that the HMM is not a consequest, but the the non-prosecution of those involved in the HMM should be listed, as the government did not investigate because of the order. The context about what it is can be completely linked to the article on the topic. -Visorstuff 15:33, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Rescission"

The entry says that the Order remained "active" until "rescinded" by Governor Bond in 1976. That is not accurate. The "rescission" had no legal significance, for the simple reason that the order was personal to Governor Boggs and to the officials (his appointees) to whom he issued the Order. It certainly had no legal significance after Boggs left office, and probably not after the main body of Mormons left the state -- fortunately, for the thousands of Mormons who traveled through or moved to Missouri not many years after the Order. To say the Order was "active" in 1976 is like saying that Lincoln's Civil War orders to General Sherman or General Grant are still "active" merely because there isn't some former "rescission" by Lincoln or some later president. Bond's order was a great piece of public relations, but should nto be describes as if it had some legal significance. Moappeals 15:34, 30 May 2007 (UTC) moappeals