Talk:Exodus International/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

FotF Section added by whom?

I added 2 "citation needed" .^{[citation needed]} to the Focus on the Family text that was added by an unknown person. Please do sign your work. And thank you for the contribution. Caryn LeMur (talk) 00:04, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Added to Michael Bussee incident section

Given that Exodus International's own article calls Gary Cooper a 'co-founder', I changed the title and added the supporting text with citations. I noted that Dr. Throckmorton disagrees with the designation of Cooper as 'founder'. Caryn LeMur (talk) 20:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Added to section concerning Michael Bussee's "apology" as occurred in June 2007, as reported by Channel 7 News (American news channel). Caryn LeMur (talk) 23:55, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Added Stubs For Future Input

After a review of the comments below (in "A Statistical Study...."); and after review of other corporate pages, I thought it was best to stub out this Exodus Article. This does show subject areas that I believe are appropriate to Exodus and that lean towards a NPV. It also shows a lack of verifiable information and invites others to participate (who may have that information). Caryn LeMur (talk) 18:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Neutral language for scandal section

Definition of scandal: "A scandal is a widely publicized incident involving allegations of wrong-doing, disgrace, or moral outrage." In observing the discussions on Exgaywatch.com, the persons within the 'scandal' do not view their actions as scandals, but in some cases as the proper action to perform. Bussee later apologized not for the "scandal" but for his involvement in Exodus. Therefore, neutral language is more appropriate. --Caryn LeMur (talk) 03:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Previous section intro text asserted the cause of homosexuality – the assertion is not germane to a “scandal” (now changed to “incident”). Previous text used an alcoholism analogy as an introduction to the “scandal” section. This was not, in my opinion, a neutral analogy. To call the “scandals” a “set-back” or “relapse” is also not a neutral POV. I therefore removed the intro text. Caryn LeMur (talk) 03:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Concerning section on John Paulk. Removed non-neutral language: “affair”, “most…damaging”, “enjoyed”. Changed “publicity” to “public figures”. Multiple requests for citations inserted. Caryn LeMur (talk) 03:35, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Inserted low-res copy of Newsweek Magazine cover, using fair use law and justification that the cover is a strong contributer to the assertion that Paulk was a public figure and therefore, the incident is all the more notable within a historical context. Caryn LeMur (talk) 06:37, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Added citation for John Paulk's importance from Archives, Washington Post (USA newspaper); added same citation for Paulk's self-description as former "homosexual prostitute and drag queen", as well as same citation for his position within Focus on the Family, Inc. Caryn LeMur (talk) 20:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Added citations for John Paulk's section, which caused several minor edits in language. Deleted last phrase concerning Paulk's current work as a chef (since this appears to not be pertinent to the subject of the incident). Provided new last phrase for resignation from Focus on the Family. Caryn LeMur (talk) 00:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Added three citations showing affect of the August 1998 Newsweek cover and the resulting controversy. Caryn LeMur (talk) 02:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Added quote of John Paulk from the Charlotte World interview. This, I believe, allows a more even-handed approach to the incident, yet retains a good amount of Neutral Point of View. Caryn LeMur (talk) 03:04, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Edits by 87.25.152.219 on 26 April 2006

As much as I dislike Exodus and sharply disagree with their ethos, the edits made by User:87.25.152.219 today were not helpful. Anyone who has points to bring against Exodus can do it by presenting evidence; merely inserting inflammatory rhetoric isn't appropriate. User:David L Rattigan 19:59 26 April 2006 GMT

This is an ad for the group. Needs a complete rewrite. Rhobite 01:33, Apr 25, 2005 (UTC)

I would just like to share...

This is a frightening organization.

You have no idea - That they had John Paulk as their national spokeman and chair of their Board speaks volumes for the integrity of the organization. Stude62 13:21, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Ok...

Well I guess if you consider Christianity frightening. (Unsigned Revision as of 08:36, 20 December 2005 by [[User:Eenu)

Exodus has very little to do with Christianity. Any organization that pins its hopes on John Paulk is nothing but a charade. Stude62 13:48, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

A very insightful article...

I found a very good article on this issue...

"I'm Gay--OK?"

--JJ

Parody Billboard/ACLU Case

I think someone should add this [1] interesting story to the article... anyone willing to take up the charge? A basic summary is that this guy made a parody image of a billboard Exodus put up in Florida, Exodus sent him a C&D letter, and the ACLU sent them a (very interesting IMHO) letter back.

EI had to send the c&d letter in order to show that they are protecting their image, even if the c&d letter didn't have a leg to stand on. Still, I applaud the young man who decided not to take their flack. If he were here, I'd pat him on the back. Stude62 03:45, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of their motives, I think this is worthy to be added to the article. Anyone care to? aubrey 05:55, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

It might also be noteworthy that several blogs posted the image in support of Justin Watt and that others created different parodies. I would do it myself but my blog was one of the ones who did it so I do not want to have the appearance of bias or that I am just trying to whore my blog. My original entry can be found here and some of the parodies (with links to their sources) can be found here if someone feels that this would be a good addition and wants to do this. --TheAngryFag 19:20, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

POV check

I've added the POV check tag to this page because a lot of it reads heavily biased, especially since it was added by the founder of the organization. A rewrite is in order.Ari 01:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

This article has recently undergone major and significantly POV editing. It reads more like an advertising brochure and a biography of Alan Chambers than an encyclopedia article. I would suggest the article be reverted to a previous edit, and any valuable changes incorporated into that. eaolson 01:54, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Although I don't know enough on the topic to know what to keep. Ari 02:00, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

None of it. The article that was up here before the edits by Chambers was, while not a PR piece for Exodus, accurate and well documented with verifiable sources in the various print formats (ie, their content had been verified as accurate, and to date not challenged in court). As a matter of fact, I'm reverting the content back to what it was Chambers turned it into a PR. Stude62 02:05, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. Ha, maybe I should pay more attention, if I had actually looked at the original I wouldn't have marked it POV check at all but Spam. Ok... need a drink. :) Ari 02:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

I've left user Alan Chambers a note on his talk page as well. Stude62 13:19, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

What an unethical person Chambers is to edit the piece in this way... good job reverting, guys!--Larrybob 16:23, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Since its Easter Weekend, I'm assuming Good Will toward Mr. Chambers and am assuming that he hasn't read the rules about self promotion and NPOV edits. Stude62 23:26, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

The current POV tag is not "Petty" the entire point of NPOV is to keep a neutral point of view, and that is imediately put into question when an organization edits its own wikipedia page, since one would assume a group wouldn't believe or want to say anything bad about itself. The POV tag should stay until a number of editors not affiliated with the group have gone over the text to make sure it is as NPOV and accurate as possible. I would recommend reading wikipedia's NPOV policies.Ari 23:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Additions/Corrections

This page is severely biased against Exodus. I would like to add some factual info that isn't slanted towards scandals, but rather Exodus' long and excellent track record.
Exodus is mispelled in the links where you reference Randy Thomas' blog.
Randy Thomas is not the Communications Director he is the Membership Director.
Alan Chambers is not the Executive Director he is the President.
Not sure why you have selected to highlight a small and insignificant portion of Bob Davies testimony on "hugging", but that smacks of linking Exodus to Holding Therapy--a practice that Exodus specifically prohibits.
I am new to Wikipedia and was unaware of all of the rules and regulations.
Some of the web links that were added last week really deserve to remain. They are:
- The National Association for the Research & Therapy of Homosexuality: www.narth.com
- Love Won Out: www.lovewonout.com
- Exodus Global Alliance: www.exodusglobalalliance.org
Reading through this discussion, it is apparent that there is great need for some extra writers and editers on this page. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.55.2.89 (talk • contribs) 71.55.2.89.

Welcome to Wikipedia, then. You may want to register a username. You may also wish to do a little reading before beginning to edit. In response to your concerns, be bold in editing. If you find an innaccuracy, please fix it. If you believe the page violates WP's NPOV policy, feel free to change it. Be aware that there was a significant and rather POV edit to this page that was reverted. Don't forget to fill out the edit summary.

Specifically in reference to your concerns:

1. I am not aware of any reliable information on how effective Exodus's program is.

7. Wikipedia is not a collection of links. This page should not become buried in links to other ex-gay groups. The link to Exodus Global Alliance may be appropriate if it's actually affiliated with Exodus. eaolson 01:22, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

With respect to the damage that you did to this art (IP71.55.2.89), first and foremost you are always welcome to add verifiable content, that is to say information that we can verify. While you may not like that we have included unfavorable items to Exodus, these items have been verified and are part of the public record. Secondly, you may not blank articles because you disagree with them. Thirdly, if you are going to add statistics relative to Exodus programs, please supply the independent third party that has verified these results. Stude62 01:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

"Wikipedia is not a collection of links. This page should not become buried in links to other ex-gay groups." If it is not appropriate to insert links to related topics and organizations which are similar to or friendly with Exodus, it certainly isn't appropriate to place links to the websites of Wayne Bessen and Justin Watt. MikeEnsley 19:02, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it is since the Wayne Bessen link is to a figure mentioned in this article and that Justin Watt was threatened by Exodus.--TheAngryFag 18:58, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Why was the ability to edit the definition of Exodus removed? I ask because the definition isn't accurate. WHomever edited it says that "Exodus International is the "largest Christian referral and information ministry" in the ex-gay movement, according to its web site."

Actually our website states: "Exodus is the largest Christian referral and information ministry dealing with homosexual issues in our world today."

That change needs to be made imediately and the ability to edit restored. 71.55.2.89 21:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)Alan M Chambers

Mr. Chambers, you reveal yourself. Wikiepdia is about facts, not just the ones that suit our vision of how things should be. I can only speak to the edits regarding John Paulk, your former Chair. The inclusion of Mr. Paulk's behaviors is relevent to Exodus, both in it choice of leadership and in it handling of the situation. Stude62 22:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by the "ability to edit the definition", but I don't see any such problem now. If there had been recent vandalism, the page might have been semi-protected, which prevents anonymous editors from making changes. (I'm not sure if that would show up in the edit history or not.) Signing in with a user name will get around the protection. eaolson 23:37, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at the Revision as of 23:04, April 18, 2006, by user 71.55.2.89 who amended the reason for the template because "I edited the warning because of the pettiness of the disclaimer" and did so by adding the following words (in italics):

":POV-because|Recent edits done by people involved in Exodus, the topic organization--who know the organization well enough to do the edits."

In doing so, the implication was that edits made from people outside the organization are biased, whereas the added content in dispute was accurate. However the template was placed because edits made erased verifiable content and instead replaced that information with PR-like writings. Stude62 20:24, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Recent new editor

This seems a bit self-evident, but user 71.55.2.89 and Alan M Chambers appear to be one and the same. I'm basing this on this edit. It also seems fairly self-evident that the wiki editor Alan M Chambers is also the Exodus President Alan Chambers, but I have asked the user on his user page to make this clear. I'm not saying I think there's anything wrong with Mr. Chambers editing here, but such edits may necessarily come with a POV bias (for the same reason autobiographies are discouraged), and may call for extra scrutiny. eaolson 23:34, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Giving his motives the benefit of the doubt, he should still be cautious about what he presents given his position creates the appearance of potential bias if not actual bias. --TheAngryFag 19:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

LOL I'm sure "TheAngryFag" has no POV bias.

Not unless you can demonstrate that he does. A preference of colorful screen names does not mean that the editor cannot set aside his biases when editing. --Chancemichaels 20:15, 8 November 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

Page title

Should the page be moved from "Exodus (organization)" to "Exodus International"? Fireplace 14:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

With no objections after one month, moving. Fireplace 15:38, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Whoops, redirects already. Need an admin. Fireplace 15:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

This page is being hit by vandals

This page has an undue amount of biased info. The vandals pink penguin and fireplace keep adding the biased and questionalble info back after it has been corrected. Then they accuse anyone of correcting the info as vandalism. How do we take care of this issue? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Shyhiloguy31 (talk • contribs) 18:41, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The article has been stable for some time. It's not appropriate to delete critical information en mass. When every single one of your recent edits has been reverted by one of four different editors, you might want to stop and take a look at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Fireplace 23:04, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested Move

It was requested that this article be renamed but the procedure outlined at WP:RM#How to request a page move did not appear to be followed, and consensus could not be determined. Please request a move again with proper procedure if there is still a desire for the page to be moved. Thank you for your time! -- tariqabjotu 01:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

To moving admin: Tariqabjotu is referring to the suggested discussion template for the talk page. But see Talk:Exodus (organization)#Page title. There were no objections, and this is a procedural request because a redirect already exists. As the article makes clear, the name of the organization is Exodus International. Thanks. Fireplace 01:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Section

The section "Exodus today" appears self-serving:

Although Exodus does not provide any verifiable statistics on its success rate, its website does feature a number of testimonials, including one by former Executive Director Bob Davies.

Davies says he has found comfort in non-sexual friendships with heterosexual men, especially from the Church. "All my life I had felt so inferior to other men. But through same-sex affirmation, I slowly began to feel more like 'one of the guys.' Another root which fed my homosexual desires was being cut."

Davies also describes how he met and married a woman from his church. He says he's not deterred by the "many more battles" ahead because of Jesus. "Through His death for me, the war has already been won."

The first paragraph is encyclopedic. The second and third are a commercial. I suggest removing them, leaving the important and verifiable information, unless we are going to include the personal beliefs of the group's opponents as well. --Chancemichaels 20:18, 8 November 2006 (UTC)Chancemichaels

Intro paragraph

Jdfellows, your proposed changes to the opening paragraph work for me- I'm glad you removed the scare quotes from 'reparative therapy,' as they weren't terribly neutral. -FisherQueen (Talk) 19:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

this article has questionable biases

Once Again the Ugly Face of Intolerance...

As an ex-gay myself I find it extremely insulting the way this article assumes that the changing from homosexuality is forced and from external sources. Choosing not to be gay is a no win situation. We're demonised by the church and dehumanised by the gay community (that revolting steriotype, Melanie, in Oranges are not the only Fruit sums up the general attitude). It's an extremely difficult thing to do, people do fail and slip up and an organisation to support you when you need it is very valuable.

I find it interesting that you use the word "scary." I'm not homophobic- I don't feel threatened by you but nee-homo-phobia is a rife problem. You need to look at your own attitudes and develop some tolerance. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.201.140.121 (talk • contribs) 05:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Los Angeles Apologies 28jun2007

"3 former leaders of ex-gay ministry apologize: They cite psychological harm they caused gays as the ministry, Exodus International, meets in Irvine." By Rebecca Trounson, Los Angeles Times, June 28, 2007. - Rorybowman 14:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Were the former leaders part of Exodus?--Knulclunk 15:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Removed "Medical view" section

For two reasons. One, this isn't an article on conversion, it's an article on one organization. And two, it was basically an ad for a book, full of POV and other such nonsense.