Talk:Evangelos Venizelos

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Wikipedia has successfully dealt in th epast with controversial infomation and stub articles in and it will ceratinly continue to do so.

Please note that the sole source mentioning that Mr Venzelos has change his last name was an article by Mr Dragoumis in the English-language mewspaper Athens News (Januray 21, 2007). Unless Mr Dragoumis/Athens News publishes a copy of the deed poll or at least a number, a location and a date that would make teh information traceable, this source should be dismissed. Rumours are not a source.

--Bflemming 07:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Τουλάχιστον... 2 Change of name and court order 3 Article cleanup & links needed 4 Semiprotection 5 Reject semiprotection 6 This article reads like a CV 7 Undue weight given to the name controversy

[edit] Τουλάχιστον...

Η σελίδα του Βενιζέλου έγινε αφορμή να πάρει μία κάποια, ελλειπή και αρνητική, δημοσιότητα η wikipedia στην οπισθοδρομική και εξευτελισμένη ελληνική ιδιωτική τηλεόραση. Κάτι είναι και αυτό. Kάποιος όμως πρέπει να πει στον υπεύθυνο του πολιτικού γραφείου που ανανέωσε τη σελίδα του εδώ ότι στα αγγλικά γράφουνε με άρθρα και ρήματα, κι ότι για παράδειγμα αυτό, "Born in Thessaloniki on 01-01-1957. Married to Lila A. Bakatselou and has a daughter.", δε στέκει γραμματικά όπως θα έστεκε στα ελληνικά. "He was born", "He is married" είναι το μόνο ορθό. Αναρωτιέμαι εαν αυτός που έκανε τις επαυξήσεις στη σελίδα βαριόταν να μπει στο κόπο να προσθέσει άρθρα και ρήματα. Σίγουρα περιμένεις κάτι καλύτερο από έναν πολιτικό με βλέψεις μέλοντος πρωθυπουργού από το να έχει στο γραφείο του κάποιον που βαριέται ή/και έχει γνώση της αγγλικής επιπέδου δημοτικού. 84.254.51.97 00:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

lol --5telios 08:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

And if we really care to keep Wikipedia from turning into a weblog, it would be more fit to use English when editing the English language Wikipedia: the points you make about the syntax are valid, and should be available to non Greek-speaking editors as well. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 20:17, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Points well taken Michalis, literally a slip of the tongue there for me, another wikipedia editor pointed it out to me yesterday, but I haven't had the time to correct it. I 'll leave the original comment on if that is alright, and I give the gist of what I said in English: As the "resume" warning tag posted on the article mentions, the writing is inappropriate for encyclopedic content and should be rephrased to look less like a resume firstly, and secondly to be grammatically and syntactically correct in English. What I also wondered in greek was how come someone with high hopes of one day becoming the prime minister of Greece can't afford an English speaker working at his campaign office to edit this page properly. There's no doubt these edits come from Venizelo's office who is overzealous in making the corrections after a previous edit where someone (in an unverified way) claimed his actual name was Tourkoglou and that he'd changed it to his current one, something he considered inaccurate, derogatory, and defamatory. He even went as far as to ask in a Greek media television appearance that the personal data of the one who made this edit be known to him. Now, he might be unaware of wikipedia policies, but he is fully aware as a professor of law that there is something known as sensitive personal data, and something else going by the name The Office for the Protection of Personal Data (αρχή προσταστίας προσωπικών δεδομένων), and it's illegal for any isp to publish or hand over to any individual such sensitive personal data of their clients unless by court order. But I guess when something affects us personally a little bending the rules, an little fascism, is allowed, even if we are professors of constitutional law. But that's an aside. I won't bother correcting this page, as I have my hands full in other sections of wikipedia. If they still think not a lot of people read our encyclopedia and want to leave in a sub par article that makes them look like fools, too bad for them. 84.254.51.107 00:30, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Change of name and court order

From 12 April 2007 to 24 September 2007 the article made a reference to E.Venizelos changing his name by deed poll. The personal blog of E.Venizelos states that he asked Wikipedia to remove this reference. By court order he also asked the IPs of those who made this edits for further actions. I hope that in the future we will not need IP spoofing software to edit Wikipedia articles! Unfortunately the blog is in Greek. 89.210.150.27 08:01, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that Mr Venizelos take the issue up with Mark Dragoumis of the Athens News. He made the claim that Mr Venizelos changed his name and the article in which he states this has been online 21 January 2007. In last week's edition of the Athens News (not yet online), Dragoumis once again refers to Venizelos as "a fellow who chose to call himself Venizelos".

Wikipedia contributors were simply quoting this.--Damac 09:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

If some editors believe that this is notable to be mentioned we must find a way to write these with such way to satisfy NPOV. I just reverted the last edit because it was without a source. -- Magioladitis 16:51, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Since there exists only one person (Dragoumis of A.N.) that we know of that says Venizelos had a different name, and since -as can clearly be seen in the article he wrote- Dragoumis does have an axe to grind against those who would oppose the amendment of article 16 of the Constitution, I believe that there exists no NPOV reason why this could be added. What could be added is the controversy story surrounding his name. However, I greatly doubt if the controversy story is notable enough, at least with the article in the current extent. If the article were as big as for example the Ron Paul article, the story could be added as it wouldn't get any undue weight. But at this size, it would get a whole lot more attention than it deserves: the guy is a former minister, an MP, a legal scientist and a contender for PASOK leadership. Surely there are lots of notable stuff that are not in the article, and the controversy story only deserves a place in a trivia section, if at all. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 21:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article cleanup & links needed

The article reads like a terse CV at present; please take the time to revise to Wikipedia standards. Also, the last three paras are completely devoid of hyperlinks, which are the whole point of a hypertext encyclopedia. Please add links where appropriate. --Slymole 11:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I've tried, earlier today, to make this article look less resume-like by adding verbs etc. as well as some facts rawn from one of Venizelos' election brochures. It's been in vain. My changes have been reverted and back we are to the resume-like post + one random table that popped out of the blue. Perhaps the editor who inserted it would be kind enough to explain what this table represents and why there needs to be a table in the first place. USEFUL TIP: If you leave a space at the beginnng of a sentence then a table is created automatically. At any rate, I am not planning to waste any time playing games and revert edits every five minutes. I am sure there are admins at wikipedia who can take care of it all. As soon as this revenge mania deflates we will come back and enrich this post with hyperlinks and refs.

--Bflemming 13:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I don't care about either the subject of the article or the ongoing political flame/revision war, but as this article has drawn considerable attention and the ire of the subject itself, it's to the best interests of Wikipedia for the vandalism matter to be resolved as quickly as possible. For the same reasons, I've had to tag it with the appropriate cleanup templates, but whether the ensuing article will be of high quality or not, I leave up to the interested parties. --Slymole 13:56, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Semiprotection

The article must be semiprotected for some time to prevent vandalism attacks. -- Magioladitis 10:55, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reject semiprotection

This article reads like a PR job for a politicians. Wikipedia does not see kindly to such intitiatives; if anything it can result to the detriment of the person concerned and provides free publicity for wikipedia. I am sure Mr Venizelos has his own site for a polished CV. There is a long standing case concerning his name; whether this is justified or not, the point remains that he is a highly public figure and the name issue (especially this name!) is relevant. Politis 09:55, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above user. The page is not a particularly high target for vandalism, and a lot of good can come out of user contributions without alienating them from wikipedia with the semiprotection. The issue about the change in his surname is also very relevant. Contrary to what another user here has said, there have been a lot of reliable journalistic sources contesting the veracity of Venizelo's claims, that he did not change his surname. Some have even gone as far as to speculate that he specifically chose E. (from Evagelos)Venizelos to be identified with the historical figure of greek politician E.(Elefterios) Venizelos, alleging at the obvious illusions of grandeur that such a move would imply. It has also been pointed out that the Venizelos surname is native only to the greek island of Crete, and not to the island of Evia (sp?) where Venizelos was born and where there's no such lineage. Of course none of these alleged criticisms stand in the main article unless properly referenced. Unfortunately Internet media is still in its near infancy in Greece and it might be hard (although I have not researched it) to provide on line sources for these statements. In any case letting this article open for edits will be a good exercise in wikipedian policy for collaborative writing of this article, instead of the dry pr material that we have at the moment. 84.254.51.230 04:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any source/link about Venizelos first letter? If we choose his name why didn't he simply choose "Elefterios Venizelos". It would be very intriguing to have a debate between Konstantinos Karamanlis and Elefterios Venizelos.

I requested semiprotection not for the name dispute but for the vandalism attacks where anonymous users where deleting parts of the article replace with words like "idiot". Since the things are better not, I agree that semiprotection is not needed.

For the name dispute. Since the subject is a matter of NPOV and some users (take a look above) believe that the subject is highlighted more than it should in a small article, my opinion is that BEFORE an edit war starts, and in order to prevent it, it should be a poll in the talk page. -- Magioladitis 10:27, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

About the link from Eleftherotypia: This article writes that Venizelos name is disputed by users in Wikipedia and that he rejects the accusations. If you put that as a proof that people accuse him for changing his name we just put Wikipedia as a source. Per Wikipedia:Citing sources, Wikipedia cannot be a reference to itself. I heard something that a journalist writing in a magazine or something acussed Venizelos for changing his name. That would be a worthy link -- Magioladitis 11:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

See Mark Dragoumis's article in the Athens News. He made the claim that Mr Venizelos changed his name and the article in which he states this has been online 21 January 2007. In last week's edition of the Athens News (not yet online), Dragoumis once again refers to Venizelos as "a fellow who chose to call himself Venizelos".--Damac 13:14, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I made slightly changes. I think the phrase "repeated statements" overhighlights a story which is not so important. Please, take a look. -- Magioladitis 14:59, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Magioladitis, you would be doing everyone a favor here if you could allot some time per day to go over any very basic English grammar and diction book. As is, your writing is hard to decipher, and even harder to read. For god's sake man, its aN edit, not "a edit". That's rudimentary. Doesn't "a edit" stick out like a sore thumb when you read it out loud? I like it how you have the audacity to declare yourself an advanced speaker of English... 84.254.50.155 21:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. -- Magioladitis 10:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

About some things written in Venizelos' blog: I think what Venizelos says here is that the article in that form he presents violated NPOV. I think now the article gives the real dimension of the subject (I think the extra paragraph with so many words is not needed). We have a journalist having some claims after a research he did and Venizelos' response. Nothing more. I reverted many edits that wanted to delete that paragraph but I' m not willing to leave false accusations. Moreover, I'm still not convinced that the name thing is that important but since we have 3-4 articles by M. Dragoumis, Venizelos' response and 2-3 newspapers covering the subject, I think we have to keep it. -- Magioladitis 17:06, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This article reads like a CV

Mr Venizelos is internet-savvy, so he should understand that having this article edited down and sanitized to read like a CV, though the treat of legal injunctions etc, reflects poorly on a politician's style. Rastapopoulos 07:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

The article is a good start. The vast majority of the articles for Greek politicians are in worse condition. Don't forget that the article has as only source the site of the Greek parliament! Contributions make articles better. Maybe we can add a tag for the style of the text bu I don't find it that necessary. -- Magioladitis 17:08, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Undue weight given to the name controversy

Everyone, please take a peek at the NPOV policy:

Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

I think that the controversy section violates the above. Maybe something as simple as the following could be enough:

Venizelos is unrelated to his famous namesake, Eleftherios Venizelos. The shared surname has given some rise to speculation and controversy about the origin of Venizelos' name, which he has vehemently denied. <citation to Venizelos blog story>

So simple and so complete. (I have to say, I am feeling rather "deletionisticly" today!) What do you think? --Michalis Famelis (talk) 17:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I suggest the following version:

Evangelos Venizelos is unrelated to his famous namesake, Eleftherios Venizelos. The journalist Mark Dragoumis questioned the origin of Venizelos' name, suggesting that E. Venizelos, or one of his ancestors, has changed his name^{[1] [2]}. Venizelos has vehemently denied that he changed his name.^[3]

And some things I want to make clear, because all these days reverting edits I felt really bad.

1. The subject since it was covered by Greek media is notable enough to mention.
2. I believe Rastapopoulos' version (check here) is very good for a larger article and doesn't violate NPOV. It gives a better idea of the controversy.
3. Venizelos' reaction to ask for IPs, shows that he really underestimates Wikipedia's power to correct itself. It's really sad to see that happening by a politician who uses technology. Many articles violate NPOV, many articles are inaccurate but Wikipedians community adds/corrects and at the end makes nice articles. -- Magioladitis 18:13, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is the "expanded version" of the story:

Evangelos Venizelos has the same surname as Eleftherios Venizelos, one of the most influential politicians in modern Greece, although there is no family relation. Greek journalist Mark Dragoumis has claimed that Venizelos "named himself by deed poll after the famous Greek statesman Elefterios Venizelos believing that his own family name of Tourkoglou would not be much of a vote-catcher".^[4] Venizelos has vehemently denied such allegations in his blog.^[5] After consulting with an Asian Minor scholar specialising in the names of Greek refugee families, Dragoumis has since retracted his original allegation and offered an apology to Venizelos. He now claims that "an ancestor of the Pasok politician - probably his grandfather ... came to Greece from Asia Minor bearing the name of Turkiozoglou (i.e. "son of a song-writer" as Turkin means song in Turkish) and changed it to Venizelos, a leader revered by refugees.^[6]

I am putting the "shortened version" I suggested above. Please, if there are any different opinions, discuss them here first keeping in mind that the article is under the scope of living persons biographies and we have to be very careful in expressions and keeping a NPOV. -- Magioladitis 22:52, 13 October 2007 (UTC)