Talk:European miracle

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I'm working on expanding, sourcing, and generally refurbishing this article. Progress is at User:Halidecyphon/The_European_miracle/ - Halidecyphon 13:49, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Done. - Halidecyphon 18:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 political fragmantation 2 european family 3 Why is it that some Chinese Nationalist always manages to introduce something about Zheng He? 4 Lack of date 5 NPOV ?

[edit] political fragmantation

i added paul kennedy in the references.my english is not good enouf to tinker the article so pleas somebody add this up.in his book he says that the political fragmentation of europe lead in a arms race in the strogel to conquer eachother,but for geographical and climatical reasons(mountains,forests,islands..unique in the holle plannette) that was extrimly dificult(and so it didn't hapen)plus when some one had a littel to much of a power every body alsse coalited against him.neutrality wasn't an option aither since they new that when his nabor would have potentialy finished with the others he would turne up on you.so in a darwinian manner they slowly bild up technology for war but without ever be abel to have a decissive advantage(yes savage capitalism).so after centuries of war when they had the technology to go out of the continunt they did and ther technology had beacome so superior that nobody could resist.so no europeans aren't superior,in fact that mecanism is not making me any proud.so in conclusion geography and climate is to be blamed.--Ruber chiken 13:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If you want to add material on Kennedy's Rise and Fall of Great Powers, please add it in the "Critique of the european miracle and alternate hypotheses" section, it would be a very good thing to add. I don't know where you got the idea that world-systems theory is "obsolete," though, and the format of your last edit was more like notes than an article. I highly encourage you to improve on this article, though, just try to keep within the organizational structure. Thank you, and happy editing, -Halidecyphon 07:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

"providing a rationale for claiming the European mind (and European religion) is inherently superior to that of all other continents" for me this is obsolite thinking of 19 century eurosupremasistes.The opsolit was refering to that.The last frase i endestould it as his theorie of world-systems,and not the theory.your suicidal haven't you notist my english,i was intend to comunicate a good theory on the sobject but i don't what to toch it my self or it would be unredable.Yes the last edit was just too atract atention here,is beter the paragraph over here then nothing.well at least you leav my change in the references.but you schould have left the title "political fragmantation" i'm puting that back to alert the reder that ther's more(intended to be temporary)--Ruber chiken 23:58, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with "political fragmentation theory" in relation to ideas of the European miracle. There is no sense in having a header on a blank paragraph. If you can explain why "political fragmentation theory" is a central aspect of the European miracle concept, please do so either on the talk page or write it into the article. You seem frustrated, but I am having trouble understanding why. For the reference, I am not "suicidal"... -Halidecyphon 22:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It's what i'm traying to explan in the first paragraph in this section.My english is not good inuf but ... ok i'll give it a try soon.I beleave that even if an article is under construction it schould give a hinch to the reeder that ther's more,or that more is comming,is better than thinking that nothing else to find.--Ruber chiken 22:51, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] european family

that is real crap,if you add up all the dead in the wars and peopol in the colonies(for example usa) you have a huge increase in population.well i gess it's for historic reasons that it is here--Ruber chiken 13:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

If you're saying that it's hard to take Eric Jones seriously, I agree with you completely. However, the purpose of the article is to objectively explain the European Miracle hypothesis, not to prove or disprove it. -Halidecyphon 07:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

wait the article is about jones theory of the european miracle or the theory in general.I beleav that it schould be put in the critics,you just agreed with me on this one--Ruber chiken 00:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

The concept and term "European miracle" here is ascribed to Eric Jones. The article is about that theory. I do not know what you are referring to by "the theory in general." Please explain. -Halidecyphon 22:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Jones didn't creat the controversy.It's cuite old actually.jones theory is just one theory on the subject.Is like starting an article on evolution and showing only the lamark theory.--Ruber chiken 22:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

this is copyrhited!!!!! Eric Jones’s European Miracle was published over twenty years ago. It was not the first, and certainly not the last work to raise the difficult questions of European exceptionalism, yet it seems to have attracted the most attention and has been made into the whipping boy of those who have resented what they viewed as historiographical triumphalism, eurocentricity, and even racism. --Ruber chiken 23:24, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You are right; Eric Jones certainly did not invent european exceptionalism. As detailed in the "roots of the european miracle" section, Weber, Smith, and Hegel, for example, also had similar ideas and Jones' concept comes to a large extent from those earlier ideas (such as the protestant work ethic and "spirit"). However, as far as I know, the term "european miracle" was coined, or at least, popularized first by Eric Jones. If you can provide an example of an earlier use of the term, this would be very valuable to the article. It sounds to me that you wish to expand the section on the roots of the European Miracle theory. Feel free to do so, I can proofread your english if you like. -Halidecyphon 14:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well it whould be a modest expanssion.I'm rather convinced by the political fragmantation theory so is what i can argue for more easely.In fact i just invented the name,i don't bow what's it's oficial name is.On overal i think,european miracle theory is like the theories on roman colapse(something like 200,ofcorse 3/4 proposterous,like jones explanation,"in my view").Thers also a mineral resources theory,if you whant we can add hitler's POV too(haha) and a climate theory(from what i now).Whell i have to reseche for references,and write it down cleanly,kennedy explanes it quit thorowsly,on several pages--Ruber chiken 18:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is it that some Chinese Nationalist always manages to introduce something about Zheng He?

His voyages don't purport the idea that Chinese ships were superior to those of the rest of the world and it's really quite misleading. Chinese agricultural industry of the time is a much better indicator.

[edit] Lack of date

This article lacks the date when the theory was publicized. In my opinion it is vital to know whether it was conceived in the early 19th century, or late 21st, so the article should reference it at least in the introduction. I don't know it myself, so I can't write it in. 84.3.185.207 08:45, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV ?

This article does not present a neutral point of view, it seems mainly a critique and a chance to provide links to other loosely related subjects/books.

First of all, The European Miracle is not an 'idea' of Eric Jones as claimed, but a book by said author. A book that has an ISBN, a publication date and a publisher that should be mentioned just in case someone has a desire to actually read the book! (Something the authors of this entry apparently haven't done.) How about a summary of the main chapters of the book, the thesis, and then (of course) a critique of the ideas. Encyclops (talk) 19:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)