Talk:European Lion
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[edit] Merge proposal of Lions in Europe with European lion
I agree to fusion this article with "Lions in Europe", because of the fact that the european population of lions isn't widely accept as a separate subspecies."
- I agree, but lions could also be a page that discusses the presence of the Asiatic lion and the European cave lion in Europe. Maybe even the lions in the Roman arenas. Peter Maas 10:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- European lions are also discussed in Asiatic lion#Asiatic Lions in Europe
- Well, I'm actually against it now. I've now edited the two articles. One is now about the (invalid) European lion subspecies. The other is on lions in Europe in general. It discusses the different subspecies, use in Roman arenas, and lions in European zoos. I will expand that article later. So I will remove the merge proposal. (Also because the one who proposed this proposal is not registered and did not sign his comment.) Peter Maas 21:32, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
- I think the article Lions in Europe should be integrated in the other lion-articles. You could write to each animal in each country an article. For example Mice in Germany, Mice in Africa, Beavers in Kanada, Cervus elphus elaphus in Bavaria..... That is not very clearly laid out and not very "user-friendly". User:Altaileopard 15:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
- I do not object the move of texts from Lions in Europe to other lemmas (not European lion), but I feel that European lion must stay here, meaning a lemma on the (possibly invalid) subspecies. Peter Maas 16:05, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Copied from Lions in Europe
The following was copied from Lions in Europe: Athor was User:Pmaas
In historic times lions occurred in southeastern Europe. This Balkanic population is generally considered part of the Asiatic lion (Panthera leo persica) group, but others consider it a separate subspecies, the European lion (Panthera leo europaea).
Aristotle and Herodotus wrote that lions were found in the Balkans in the middle of the first millennium B.C. When Xerxes advanced through Macedon in 480 B.C., several of his baggage camels were killed by lions. Lions are believed to have died out within the borders of present-day Greece in A.D. 80-100.
This sentence was copied from lions in Europe: (Author: User:Tarpan)
Due to geographical distribution they were more accessible to Romans than North African and Middle Eastern lions.
Copied and modified by User:Altaileopard 11:15, 05 Okt 2006 (UTC)
[edit] deletion of this article
I think this article is completely unverified and this subspecies seems to be not confirmed through serious literature. I would like to remove the contents and change it into a Redirect to Asiatic lion. Who does not agree?--Altaileopard 16:07, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
- I only agree if its content will be posted in the Asian lion article. Not a complete deletion, because there have been lions in Europe. The thing is most (not everyone) consider it to be the Asiatic lion, not a different European subspecies. But I haven't seen any (genetic) research on this to be sure. This lemma could be concerved as it describes a possible invalid subspecies. I see no problem with that either. Peter Maas\talk 09:52, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well I did some further reading in the forum of my website (The Extinction Forum), and there is some doubt. One members said that "In recent times, lions only occurs in Europe in Greece and SE Balkans; this animals were asian lions (Panthera leo persica) that colonized the area before the Sea of Marmara formed (5600 bC)." After which another said the following: "Despite of that, how much time do you think is needed for a subspecies being born? Do you know that the balkan lynx and the carpathian lynx have no more that 200 years of being isolated from each other with no possibility of genetic exchange and nowadays the balkan population is considered a separate subspecies. And that there are fools that claim to have "created" a new subspecies of european bison in 20 years (which are in fact only hybrids american x european bison) and they even call him bison bonasus montanus... Let's make it clear that I don't agree with the latter, I only took it as an example. We can't just throw away 5000 years." and "I can't say that the european lion was 100% a separate subspecies (until we have fossil confirmation). But I have good reasons to belive that. Many ancient greek authors describe it as bigger and "wilder" than the other two (that means that it was even bigger than the barbary, which is the larger known). Just to mention Herodotes (500 bc), who says that the camels of Xerxes army were attaced by lions while passing through Macedonia. It takes a lot of courage for a lion to attack camels surrounded with soldiers... Also the big size of the eurolion can be confirmed when you take a look at his main prey at the time. There weren't antelopes or gazelles in the Balkans, but there were deer, bison and of course... aurochs... You needed to be big to put down these colosses. Panthera leo europaea... let's wait for the bones". You find all posts on this animal at: The Extinction Forum - European Lion (you need to register to read, which is totally free). I'm starting to think we can presercve the Wikipedia lemma. Peter Maas\talk 10:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
