Talk:Europa (wargame)

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I created this article with content taken from Drang nach Osten, because I think the explanation of the political/historical concept and the description of this game should be kept separate. Whether or not this game is significant enough to have its own article is another question that I do not want to decide. I have never heard of this game nor of its authors, but others may have a different opinion, of course. --Thorsten1 11:52, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Total War

Does Total War count as a 3rd edition? It seems to use the same rules, only the OOB and map and counters change, reflecting recently released KGB files. Normally when speaking about Europa and "Total War", one thinks of the fabled rules set to cover the entire WWII scenario that combines all the modules into a single game played from 39-45, with rules for politics, economics, etc.. Total War just seems to be an update to an existing game series. Stbalbach 03:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Total War does indeed appear in Europa publications as the name of the next incarnation of Europa I, e.g. on page one of the "Scenario Rules" packet for Storm Over Scandinavia published in 1998, and it is also currently listed by that name at the HMS website. And since it is described there as having new maps and updated rules in addition to the updated order of battle, it sounds like it will qualify as a new edition, though we won't know for sure until when/if it actually comes out of the printing press.

As for other meanings of the name Total War, there have just been too many "official proposed projects" floating around for the past 20 years under continually changing names, and it may be that the same title was at some point attached to a different project. For example, IIRC "Clash of the Titans" was originally a fan's east-front scenario published in a magazine, but now appears to be on the roster as an "official proposed game" sandwiched between Total Victory and Total War. Also, "grand Europa" was originally slang for what we would play when everthing was finally published, but under GRD it became the "official proposed title" for a module that would provide the final integration. But from the HMS website and Europa magazine it looks like Total War, as the latest incarnation of Europa I, is real enough to be undergoing playtesting and be on offer for pre-orders. — B.Bryant 02:49, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Thanks it's more clear now, nice work on the re-write; this is a confusing series background and the history is very helpful. Should we mention the hex scale also along with unit size and time? Stbalbach 03:42, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, we should add that and maybe a few other things, though I'm not sure how much is appropriate for an encyclopedia article. — B.Bryant 03:50, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] DNO-specific stuff deleted from the article

This article had its origins when material about DNO was removed from the article about the historical Drang nach Osten, so the article contained some very specific material about DNO that IMO is not appropriate to the article that now covers the whole Europa series (e.g., number of counters). Also, I don't think all the facts are correct; someone seems to be confusing the "16 km" with the 16 miles actually used by the system. However, I'm preserving it here in case someone doesn't want to discard it and doesn't want to have to dig through the article history to find it. Some of this is still covered by the article; I just didn't want to cite incomplete sentences here. — B.Bryant 20:41, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

DNO consisted of a rulebook, five maps, a set of charts and between 1680 and 1792 counters (accounts vary) in five sheets. Due to printing problems sheet five was only included in the first 100 games; others had to wait for the last to be sent later along with errata. The game covered the period June 1941 to March 1942 in 19 half-monthly turns, at a scale of 16 km per hex.

In September 1973, GDW released Unentschieden (german for Stalemate). The expansion, with 2182 counters and four more maps, covered the period April 1942 to February 1945, expanding the game to 52 half-monthly turns.

In 1984, GDW released Fire in the East (FITE), a completely revised version of DNO designed by Paul R. Banner, Frank Chadwick, John Astell and Marc W. Miller. The game covers the same conflict during the same period as the first game, but introduced a new scale (25 km per hex). FITE included six maps and 2500 counters.