Talk:Eugène Ionesco

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[edit] Maximilien Kolbe

Hello, just to let people know that this opera libretto has been produced in more than five countries, has been recorded on CD and the text has recently been published by the Editions Champion in France. I have the recording, it's really good if you like this kind of bleak mysticism--I thnk that this CD is now out of print however, as I can't find it for sale anywhere on the web.

The performance history can be seen by visiting [1]

I've added this to the article, as well as adding the information about the Tailleferre adaption of "Le Maître" that she wrote in 1962. I'll be writing an article about that opera, since it's becoming interesting in a rather splashy way.... Musikfabrik 09:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eugene Ionescu as a Jew

Newport, I don't have Encyclopaedia Iudaica in front of me, but I have an article on Eugene Ionesco from Lettre Internationale - Romanian Edition (51/2004). Matei Călinescu writes on Eugene Ionesco: "simte «evreu», sau are tendinţa să devină ceea ce aş numi un «evreu imaginar». Întâlnirea cu Sebastian e aici semnificativă: mărturisindu-i originea posibilă a mamei sale lui Sebastian, el ţine să adauge că a făcut pentru ea ceea ce se cuvenea creştineşte la moartea ei." or in English: he "feels «Jew», or has the tendency to become what I'd call an «imaginary Jew». His meeting with Sebastian (my note: a Jewish writer) is significant: testifying the possible origin of his mother to Sebastian, he likes to add he fulfilled the Christian duties on her death (as you can see from the article she was a Christian)". As such, taking from an less reliable source (an encyclopedia) a testimony of his (why don't you quote him if he really said that?) and using that reference to add him as Jewish writer in the "List of Romanian Jews" it seems to be an outstretch and a blatant POV. And we already have the testimony of his daughter that this alleged Jewish origin would eventually come from a great-grandmother which would mean at best 1/8 of his genetic ancestry. Cheers. Daizus 23:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Making up facts?

It is rather a serious allegation to accuse someone of making up facts. However, I can prove that I have not made up anything - I have made a verbatim citation from a standard encyclopaedia. It is surely not a good idea to delete a reference to a reliable source. I have not deleted anyone else's material, nor have I restored him to any lists. What I and others have put should stand, and people can form their own opinions.--Newport 23:10, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Making up facts means you trace him as a Jew based on his great-grand mother (from his daughter testimony). If you have any proof his father or mother were Jews bring them. Daizus 23:30, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, serious scholarship (see above) and reliable testimonies (his daughter) argued about a possible Jewish origin of his mother and that Ionescu himself was aware of that. So from the vague claim of "awareness" from an encyclopedia article to infer a real Jewish origin is kinda OR (or making up facts, if you wish). Daizus 23:34, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not tracing him as a Jew. I am quoting verbatim what a reliable source says. To delete that is vandalism. Were I to assert positively that he ought to be on a list of Jews, you could argue about the strength of evidence, but you have no right to delete a properly sourced statement.--Newport 12:45, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I became interested in checking Present Past Past Present, because of this discussion (and the quote from Encyclopedia Judaica referencing that volume). I think they must have misinterpreted his pro-Jewish or pro-Israel statementments, as nowhere in the book does he speak of Jewish origins, just his general sympathy for the Jewish people and his strongly pro-Israel stance..--DrMajestico

I haven't read that book. But before saying anything else I want to show how my allegations were supported by evidence.

Newport, I have reached this page after you added Ionesco in the List of Romanian Jews. The addition is dated 10 Feb, 21:57 (server time), while the first addition in this page is dated in the same day, 21:54 (server time). The three minutes difference it suggests you have added the material in this page, in order to justify Ionesco's presence in that list. However, you also suggested that when you justified your edit. Therefore you have traced him as a Jew. Perhaps you no longer do, this could be another question but irrelevant for the quality of this article.

However, there's a second problem strongly connected to this one. You're not just quoting verbatim as you have claimed. Your full edit went as following: However, Ionesco himself testifies to his Jewish origins; "he wrote about his family history for the first time in the second volume of his memoirs, Present Passe, Passe Present (1968), a sequel to Le Journal en Miettes (1957, Fragments of a Journal, 1968), expressing a new awareness of his Jewish origin." Encyclopaedia Judaica, art. "Ionesco, Eugene". The quote says "expressing a new awareness", you're concluding "he testifies". On what grounds? Where is the testimony? I have challenged you to bring Ionesco's own sayings and you have not.

Both cases fall under WP:OR and WP:NPOV. Your so-called "sourced statement" was more than a statement, was an interpretation of your own of the source in order to promote a POV. That's why I don't think my delete is vandalism.

And on this issue, last but not at least, his daugter is a living person. When she testifies on the origins of her family, you cannot simply counter her claims with a vague and insinuating statement ("new awareness") from an encyclopaedia (a tertiary source, that is).

Now, taking in consideration also DrMajestico's testimony, but still holding to my previous ideas, I don't think we should put in balance his daughter's claims with Encyclopaedia Iudaica's. That's why, I'll make one step to a common ground, that is to mention Encylcopaedia Iudaica near Who's Who in Jewish History as references for his allegedly Jewish origin. If Newport will continue to impose his POV, I'll be forced to tag the page with the corresponding tags questioning NPOV, relevance and the original research involved in promoting this POV. Cheers. Daizus 11:15, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

The second edition of Encyclopaedia Judaica has just been published. It states unequivocally: "Ionesco's mother, Thérèse Icard, was a French Jewess who, while teaching in Romania, married a non-Jewish lawyer, Eugène Ionesco." This is a reliable secondary source. The official Wikipedia policy WP:A states: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources wherever possible. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." Clearly, his daughter's testimony is a primary source and cannot be used to overrule a reliable secondary source.--20.138.246.89 10:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, Ionesco's daughter testimony addresses various materials published asserting Ionesco's Jewish genealogy. Ionesco's daughter is a living person and giving her an origin contrary to her claims must be done with care and serious scholarship. Encyclopedia Judaica it not a secondary source but a tertiary source. I'll move the ref near Encyclopedia Judaica and that's the best we can have from the existing sources. 11:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, actually the link was to Wiki's policy not to Enc. Judaica article. Sorry then, no reference. Daizus 11:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:RS: "articles signed by experts in Encyclopaedia Britannica and encyclopedias of similar quality can be regarded as reliable secondary sources instead of tertiary ones". The article is signed by Claude Gandelman, Rohan Saxena and Dror Franck Sullaper. They are, of course, entitled to the same consideration as living persons as anyone else.--20.138.246.89 12:26, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

There's no assessment of Encyclopedia Judaica and as WP:RS states clearly "Tertiary sources are reference books such as dictionaries, general encyclopedias and almanacs.", without any evidence EJ stands for a tertiary source. Wikipedia is classified as a tertiary source, too. We need an evaluation of the material from EJ to classify as a secondary source. Do you have any reference for that, or is it your own verdict?

On the other hand, in WP:BLP it is said "Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives.". Also in WP:RS is added: "Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to historical events, politically-charged issues, and biographies of living people.". If you can prove (using your sources or other references) the assumed Jewish origins of Ionesco's mother is something else but having an allegedly Jewish grandmother, then you have a point. On her own genealogy, we should give credit first to Ionesco's daughter and then to other sources which simply claim otherwise. Moreover, your phrasing ("According to reliable sources X, however according to Marie France-Ionesco Y") insinuates Ionesco's daughter is not a reliable source on her own genealogy which is obviously against WP:BLP. Daizus 13:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

As for those authors I only could find out Claude Gandelman is professor of French literature and comparative literature at the universities of Tel Aviv and Haifa and I've found some references with him writing on semiotics or aesthetics. If you know more about him or the other two, please add, because I'm wondering how would they be experts on Ionesco family's past. Daizus 13:18, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopaedia Judaica is a standard encyclopaedia found in libraries around the world. By what criterion is it not a reliable source? (Wikipedia is not a tertiary source - it is not a reliable source at all for this purpose.) What is exceptional about the claim that Ionesco's mother was Jewish? We indeed have multiple sources (two references) that state that his mother was Jewish. It is absurd to ask for an infinite regression (how does the reliable source know; how do its sources know ...) We might as well ask how Ionesco's daughter knows. Also, note that he is no longer alive so WP:BLP does not apply to him. Further, please note that I have not inserted any statement into the article, only into the footnote. Ionesco's daughter on your logic is a primary source, and therefore by Wikipedia policy we state the reliable secondary source first. If you wish to persist in flouting Wikipedia policy, can we please proceed to WP:RfM.--20.138.246.89 17:05, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not build straw men. I haven't said EJ is not a reliable source. As for Wikipedia, it is a tertiary source according to own's Wiki policy article (this page was recently merged): "Tertiary sources are publications, such as encyclopedias, that sum up other secondary sources, and sometimes primary sources. Wikipedia is a tertiary source. ".

The claim can be see as exceptional as it a) conflicts with many published biographies (where is stated Romanian father, French mother) b) conflicts with the image propagated by hiw own family (his daughter) c) even so, it is admittely a controversial issue. Even among the scholars admitting Eugene Ionesco's Jewish origin, we find scholars like Alexandra Lagniel-Lavastine saying Ionesco's Jewish origins are "certain but remote" (the quote is from memory).

WP:BLP applies for one main reason: you're discrediting his daughter's testimony. I'm not removing sources saying otherwise, I'm just objecting to the way they are balanced. Go for mediation if you believe it's necessary, but I hope we can solve this with common sense and arguments. Daizus 17:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I dont understand what the big problem is, his heritage on both sides seems pretty concrete as it stands. and besides that, WHO BLOODY CARES IF HE WAS A JEW OR NOT. He was a playwright, not a religous leader. Please work on the more important task of expanding the spotty info on his body of work. priorities people! VanTucky 17:11, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think that, since the debate is based on an apparent incorrect reading of Present Past Past Present by the editors of the Encyclopedia Judaica, the whole thing is a little ridiculous. Whether the EJ would usually be a secondary source or a tertiary source, in this case the primary source, Ionesco's writings, does not agree. I suggest reading the book, rather than debating what the book may or may not say about his Jewish origins.DrMajestico

Okay, it seems here that pretty much every user who has felt the need to chime in here agrees on the primacy of the current sourced understanding of Ionesco's family heritage in contrast to the suppossed grandmother's Jewishness or whatever. Let's move on. VanTucky 06:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Well I'm the third to be in agreement that this "argument" is pretty much pointless and unnecessary to continue. First of all, I think a lot of it has to do with 20.138.246.89's misunderstanding of the difference between primary and secondary source, especially after stressing that Ionesco's daughter's book is a primary source. 20.138.246.89 is confusing an "autobiography" with Marie Ionesco's book on her father. By definition, because Marie Ionesco is a researcher of her father's life, her biography of him is by definition a secondary source. Further, the manipulation of the note seems to me like an attempt at POV-pushing. Similar arguments happened at TALK:Otto Lilienthal. Just saying. Usedup 22:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MedCab case

Hi all. I'm currently mediating this case.

Every editor can see how's going the mediation and voice his opinion here.

For a successful mediation, I need to hear every position and its arguments.

In order to keep mediation-related stuff all together, I prefer if we discuss on the mediation page rather than here.

I'm at your disposal for every question.

Happy editing,

--HIZKIAH (User • Talk) 21:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Greetings! I ran across your MedCab case, which is still listed as open. I was initially planning to take over the case, but after reading through it, it would appear that the dispute is over. I'm closing the case, but of course there's no reason why it can't be reopened if you all feel that it needs to be. I just thought I would post some basic comments here. This is all assuming I understand the dispute correctly, as I haven't read the article- only the MedCab page.

Judaism as an ethnicity is extremely complicated. Some people hold that Judaism is exclusively a religion and not an ethnicity, while others hold that it is the exclusive ethnicity of its members. The most common (and moderate) opinion I've heard, and of course I don't have a source for this other than my own upbringing, is that it's a companion to your nationality/ethnicity/etc. For example, from my father's side I am Jewish; I am also American, and farther back I am both Jewish and Russian.
WP:A states that "primary sources are documents or people close to the situation you are writing about." For this reason, and due to the unique way in which the subject relates to her (while the source in question is not Ionesco, she is his daughter) I would caution against swearing by the daughter. However, I haven't read the article, so I can't say whether her book is likely to have the same problems as a primary source. If Ionesco or his daughter has a reason to hide their Jewish heritage, she is probably not the most reliable source to establish that fact. If not, there is no reason to believe that she wouldn't be an accurate source. Of course, if the issue was whether or not being French meant not being Jewish... see above. There are French Jews. --Moralis (talk) 23:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

As I have stated also in the Mediation page, his daughter's book is rather a secondary source. I find Matei Călinescu's assessment very relevant on this (Lettre Internationale, 51/2004, p. 50): (my translation from Romanian) "Continuing the arguments on the partial Jewish origin of Ionesco presented in two books written by Marta Petreu and Alexandra Laignel-Lavastine, Marie-France Ionesco gives the most plausible maternal genealogy of Eugen Ionesco." (he also continues in the same article in pages 50-52 about Ionesco's Jewish origins using syntagms like "Jewish element" - in Ionesco's genealogy, "Imaginary Jew" - about Ionesco's philosemitism, "possible Jewish origins"). This is even more intersting as the same Matei Călinescu, in another issue of the same journal (39/2001), when the aformentioned books were not published, was rather supporting a Jewish origin of Ionesco. Daizus 01:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Ionesco himself says that his mother was Jewish [2]. What else do you need?--R613vlu 13:14, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually it's more on his testimonies. Matei Călinescu argues here: "his Jewish origin by his mother (on which he was uncertain)", "Ionesco told his friends about his possible Jewish origin, to Mihail Sebastian, to Ion Vlasiu, to Octav Şuluţiu, before or during the war, as it can be read from their journals" (emphases are mine) Daizus 01:07, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi everybody! I took over the mediation case. This is my note on the page: "Well, after reviewing everything here, I see we have two conflicting sources. I think it would probably just be better to say something along the lines of "Eugene Ionesco was thought to have Jewish ancestry", or maybe something a little less wordy. This way we can represent both points of view instead of having it degenerate into a he said, she said battle." If you have any questions or comments, you can leave a message on my talk page. mcr616 _Speak! 23:28, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Please take a look at the current version of the article (the debate is about the content of the footnote at this moment) and please indicate what should be changed. Daizus 12:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a step backwards, isn't it? Nobody is denying that he had at least some Jewish ancestry. At the very least, we should say that Ionesco seems to have said that his mother was Jewish, even if his daughter disagreed.--R613vlu 12:29, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Ionesco also said he's not sure his mother was Jewish. If you want NPOV you quote him in both stances, not only the one which is convenient for your POV. Daizus 12:35, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

How I understand it is the daughter is saying basically the same thing as Ionesco. I'm reading as she says that she isn't sure if she has Jewish ancestry, but she feels that it is irrelevant, as her father wasn't prejudiced against Jewish people anyways. I really don't see the big dispute here. Both the daughter and Mr.Ionesco see the possibility of having Jewish ancestry, and from what I read, the daughter certainly doesn't rule it out. I think the footnote could be kept. I also think that you should write something about how he wasn't sure about if he had Jewish ancestry, but some sources say that he does. mcr616 _Speak! 17:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] English Titles

I recently added some English titles, but honestly I think when his works are mentioned -- and specifically I'm referring to the list of his works at the bottom of the page -- they should be listed with English titles first. I know he wrote in French. But so did Samuel Beckett, but Waiting for Godot is listed as "Waiting for Godot" not the original French title. Ionesco is very popular and widely read/performed in English. This is an English encyclopedia entry. Shouldn't we make it easier for English-speaking people to read and understand this page quickly. Some of the titles at the bottom don't even have their English translations. For example, I couldn't remember exactly if the English title was "Man with Bags," but no English title is given though it's been translated into English. (Somebody with a better mastery of French please help out.) Anyway, I propose titles be listed with English titles forst then original titles in parenthesis.

F. Simon Grant 20:10, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Beckett was not translated; he wrote originals in both French and English. That is a rare case. I will add some of the titles...I should know them all off the top of my head, but those I can't remember (it's not just knowing french, it's being familiar with how the translator chos to translate the French) I'll try to add later.

DrMajestico

[edit] Jarry, Pataphysics, Surrealism, Breton, Queneau

There should be some mention of Ionesco's love of Alfred Jarry, his involvement in Pataphysics, his admiration of Surrealism and Andre Breton, and his friendship with Raymond Queneau -- these are helpful in understanding Ionesco's philosophy, aesthetic, etc. and how Ionesco fits in with an interconnected tapestry of French and international literature. There's an unfortunately common misunderstanding out there that Ionesco was somehow an existentialist (Esslin's connection of Absurdism to Albert Camus was probably the cause of it), but Ionesco claimed he was more in the tradition of the above mentioned writers and groups. I think he talks about it in Notes and Counternotes which I do not at this time have a copy of -- otherwise I've seen tons of little blurbs, but I'm not sure if he talks extensively about it in a single location. If anyone can help out with solid info a long this line, it would certainly benefit the article.

F. Simon Grant 19:21, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Eugène Ionesco

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[edit] Maximilien Kolbe

[edit] Eugene Ionescu as a Jew

[edit] Making up facts?

[edit] MedCab case

[edit] English Titles

[edit] Jarry, Pataphysics, Surrealism, Breton, Queneau

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