Talk:Etobicoke School of the Arts

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Etobicoke School of the Arts was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: June 27, 2007

Contents 1 Alumni 2 NPOV 3 Canadian Spelling 4 General comments 5 Oldest Arts School 6 GA Failed

[edit] Alumni

Okay, we really need to address the Notable Alumni issue. In my opinion, any person who doesn't have a reference or a wikipedia page to their name should be deleted, and I am prepared to do so in a week. So if anyone is actually reading this, please tell me what you think. (Yohowithrum (talk) 20:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC))

I deleted two names who didn't look right and didn't come up in search engines. The rest of the people who don't have wikipedia pages I have placed {{Fact}} on. I will work a little bit on them, but I'd like some help. Also, I am liable to just delete them if I can't find anything. (Yohowithrum (talk) 20:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC))

I deleted a few more individuals who are not notable. (Yohowithrum (talk) 20:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC))

[edit] NPOV

This passage seems to depart from NPOV:

With an abnormally high number of students passing both the literacy test and the Grade 9 math test, ESA is one of the highest quality secondary institutions in Toronto, Ontario and is recognized as the oldest and best arts high school in Canada.

Dcandeto 07:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

hey, it is the arts school that was founded first as a specialised art school in canada, and is considered the most prestigious and difficult to get into in Canada, I dont think that goes against the NPOV. It may sound like a blanket opinion however it is actually fact, even if the claim seems rather audacious to you.

You still need to cite sources to back that up. And please sign your posts with ~~~~. Dcandeto 07:28, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Canadian Spelling

Canada uses the british form of specialised, with an 's'. So please stop changing it. Look it up. ~~~~

See the article on Canadian English, as well as articles such as Canada, Ontario, and Toronto. "Industrialized," "organized," and "recognized" are the proper Canadian spellings. And sign your posts. Dcandeto 07:56, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

The article is wrong, as often happens on wikipedia. I am using the Canadian Oxford dictionary, which is far more authoritative then an uncited fact from that article. Please desist with your incessant vandalising of this page or I will report you. Carry on.~~~~

Correct spellings include "authorize," "standardized," "recognize," and "utilized," according to the November 2005 Hansard from the Canadian House of Commons. Persistent changing away from correct spellings is vandalism; please discontinue it. Dcandeto 08:16, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Correct spellings according to the Canadian Oxford Dictionary, 2005 include "recognise," "standardise," and "specialise," which incidentally are also the forms used in Britain. Canadian spellings often are closer the British variant due to the fact that we are part of the Commonwealth, and it is important to be consistant. Please dicontinue Americanising the spellings when they are perfectly fine, it is wrong and you are overstepping your mandate to keep the site correct. That is all. ~~~~

Correct spellings are those that are consistent with the predominant Canadian spelling, in addition to other Canadian-English articles on Wikipedia. These overwhelmingly prefer -ise over -ize, as does most of Canada. (How long do you think your incorrect spelling edits would last if you were to try to edit Canada? Dcandeto 04:43, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

See also the spelling comparison chart, which notes (emphasis mine):

In the Commonwealth, with the exception of Canada, -ise is the preferred variant.

Since this article has a Canadian scope, -ise endings are not preferred, and I will keep reverting the vandalism that is the changing of -ize words to their non-preferred variant spellings. Dcandeto 04:57, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Correct spellings are those which are recognised by the Canadian Oxford dictionary, and those used most often by Canadian government and institutions. Stop trying to back up your claims using wikipedia, which by its nature is often erroneous, and show something legitimate or I will not recocgnise its authority. ~~~~

I am using forms used by the Canadian government. You are using non-preferred variants. My edits conform to the Wikipedia Manual of Style; yours do not. And you're still not signing your posts properly. Dcandeto 16:34, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Aside from being an uregistered user trying to argue against commonly accepted Canadian spellings, 24.200.181.71 has vandalized the article on at least one occasion and should be blocked as per wikipedia policy. 01:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I am using the common variants that every day canadians use, ie. are PREFERRED (are you a canadian or have you lived here?), as well as those stipulaed as such by the Canadian Oxford, which has higher authority then the "wikipedia manual of style," as polished as that source doubtless is.

Although I am unregistered, I am not stupid, or uneducated. As well I am canadian and can give a better idea of how canadian's spell, having been educated here. You are a registed user and yet you are repeatedly vandalising an article with your quibbles - desist.

I IMMEDIATELY tried to change the article by deleting what I had written, however the article had allready been vandalised by other persons, and I was merely changing their posts. Those posts shouldn't have been there before. Furthermore, ad hominus attacks such as these are of a personal nature and are not relevant to this dispute. Personal attacks are no allowed as per wikipedia policy.

Blocking me because I do not agree with your editing to get an advantage in a legitimate dispute is also banned as per wikipedia policy. ~~~~

The non-preferred variants ending in -ise are just that—non-preferred—and are not recommended by the style guide. Please stop reverting to variant spellings in opposition to the Manual of Style. It's vandalism, just as much as changing instances of colour to color would be. If the Canadian Oxford Dictionary has -ise as the preferred spelling, it's just factually incorrect. It's not how Canadians generally spell. dcandeto 12:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

It IS how Canadians spell, and it is how we are taught in school, and it is in our dictionary. It IS the preferred variant - how can you say it is not how we spell if your frame of reference is that article, whereas mine is my entire culture and upbringing and the CAD? It is not incorrect, the manual of style may need to be modified. I am not being recalcitrant to vandalise, I am trying to keep the article as it is meant to be expressed - using preferred canadian variants.~~~~

Regardless of the actual preferred spelling (which there obviously seems to be some dispute on), spellings in the Manual of Style are to be used when editing articles. If you think there is an error in the Manual of Style, then that should be resolved there. Please also sign your posts correctly. 16:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the late addition.

Specialize is spelled with a z [1]. It should generally be an s but this word is a z. I also checked the Gage Canadian dictionary.

As a general rule, wikipedia is written in the American English format. However, in articles dealing with specific countries ( a school in Canada) then the style of spelling for that country is used. Quoting from [2]:

When either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so (for example, it is acceptable to change from American to British spelling if the article concerns a British topic, and vice versa).

--Statsone 20:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] General comments

What do you guys think of ESA?i heard from 3 people from my school that i shouldn't go because they have homosexuals at their school?is it true?

Of course its not true. Who the hell are you? I go to ESA, and I know it is one of Canadas best school. There are homosexuals at ESA but no more then you would find at LCI.Longbranch 16:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey Ian, Holy Crap there are a lot of A-Holes and Homophobes on Wiki! I also go to ESA and I frankly think that not only are we proud to have Homosexuals at ESA, we are also known as the best arts school in the GTA. We only say it because every other god damned person says it too! - Yohowithrum September 26th, 2007 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 01:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Please be Civil. --Statsone 20:42, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry to offend you, I was merely trying to get my point across. I regret now using those words and in the future will use a more intellectual approach to my arguments. Yohowithrum 21:00 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Not offended. Happy to have you here. --Statsone 03:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oldest Arts School

I will leave the edit to someone else but... I believe the claim that it is Canada's oldest arts-focused high school is wrong. As far as I know "F.A.C.E. School" is the oldest (founded in 1975). Please see the wiki page for it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.A.C.E._School Unless you have a reference for that claim, that sentence should be edited out. And P.S. Please give us a break with the anti-gay comments!--Pollysix 19:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

ESA is Canada's oldest arts focused school. Having done some research (Your links well provided) on F.A.C.E. School, I have found that FACE is not purely an arts highschool, but a school with an arts focus. Longbranch 20:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I am an alumni of F.A.C.E. and I can assure you it is an arts high school. "F.A.C.E." stands for "Fine Arts Core Education". Here's a quote from their website: "F.A.C.E. offers an integrated arts program, from pre-kindergarten to secondary 5. Art education, consisting of visual arts, drama, instrumental and vocal music which make up a third of the curriculum, is mandatory for all students, as are the academic subjects." (source: http://face.csdm.qc.ca/english/direction/index.html) The distinction between "arts high school" and "art focused" is purely rhetorical. Yes, the students still need to take things like Math and English, but apart from that it's arts courses. If anything the distinction might be becuase F.A.C.E. includes both an elementary and high school levels, whereas ESA is h.s. only. Not sure. Best regards. -- Pollysix 21:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be best to settle at ESA being the first public art High Schol. And FACE being the first public arts school. Sounds good? Longbranch 03:39, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure. It's no big deal. I just noticed it and found it strange that the Ontario school board stated it. They must not have known about F.A.C.E., possibly because it's in Quebec and is mainly french. Oh well, just wanted to make sure the facts were straight.:-) -- Pollysix 18:59, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

That seems typical of the Ontario government. (Yohowithrum 21:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC))

[edit] GA Failed

After reviewing the article per the criteria listed on WP:WIAGA, I have observed that it does not meet the criteria for the following reasons. Please feel free to use these as starting points in an improvement of the article.

• The amount and type of referencing is poor compared to the length and breadth of the article. Some specifics to consider are:

1. A citation to the school's district profile is a borderline-appropriate source, especially to the claim of the school's venerable age. As the district has a vested interest in making its schools look good, it is not an independent, third-party source.
2. The History and Application sections especially need references.

• The article needs structural work. Overview sections ideally come before History sections in most GA-class articles.

• The list of alumni, in addition to being completely unreferenced, is borderline trivia. This is especially so in consideration of the lack of an intro or other significant encyclopedic text in the section.

Some positive aspects I found in the article were that notability was clearly established in the introduction without any unnecessary cheerleading, and the article seemed to be very comprehensive in its coverage. VanTucky 17:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this, especially the list of alumni, many of which seem to not be very significant at all. Perhaps it would be a start to attempt to find some references for the more famous ones and outright delete the alumni without their own wikipedia article? I just suggest that as an attempt to weed out the non-notable alumni. If anybody else has a better idea to categorize them, I'm all ears. Whiskyrye (talk) 04:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe the list of Alumni is necessary to the article and compliments the article. One would put a quote from a magazine praising the school, why would one not want to see famous people who have graduated from ESA. This of course does not fully encompass all attendees, for if it were a list of Attendees, Mr. Keanu Reeves would be on it. Therefore, I think it is frivolous to this the alumni list needs to be put away. (Yohowithrum (talk) 16:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC))