Talk:Ethnologue list of most spoken languages

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[edit] (Swiss) German

If, for instance, Schwytzerdütsch is another language than German, then what IS German? Many of the German dialects differ as much or more to standardized German (High German) than Schwysterdütsch. Does then Alemannic belong to the "Swiss language"? Is the Swiss language according to Ethnologue divided in many languages, given that speakers of some regions can hardly understand the dialect spoken in other ones? What is then a dialect? Why is Austrian dialect not a language? Would actually a person from Hamburg understand when Austrian people speak than when Swiss people do (for example, when someone from Zurich speaks)? What is with Saxish? Actually, German is many times divided in Low and High German, being ow German basically the "Plattdeutsch" spoken in Northern Germany. Yiddisch is said to be closer to High German than Low German is. Why doesn't Low German count then as another language and, if it does, might Yiddish count as a German dialect? I think it doesn't, but I think it is problematic to count every dialect as language, even if it possesses a large history. At the same time, it is problematic to count everything as part of the same language, even though inteligibility is very hardly given.Nbez 12:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, I don't see how you can count Swiss German and German seperately, and then combine ALL chinese languages and ALL Arabic dialects.

or, perhaps why the Ethnologue does so. It doesn't give German as a macrolanguage, but does for Arabic and Chinese. Yes, it does seem inconsistent: to me, as well as to you. That's why the comment column is useful. Drmaik 05:55, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Not only Switzerland, but all of Germany and Austria have their dialects. Does ethnologue substract the Swiss speakers? It does not, for else the 95 millions would not add up. There are 82 millions Germans, 8 millions Austrians and seven millions Swiss 70% of whom are Germanophone (the rest speaks French, Italian or Rhaetoromanic). Can anybody confirm that Ethnologue excludes Switzerland? Untill then I remove the statement. The situation with dialects in Switzerland does not differ from that in Germany and Austria at all - in all three countries a majority of the population are native speakers of some dialect.84.167.235.191 17:42, 29 May 2007 (UTC) Ideed, Switzerland IS listed amongst countries where Standard German is spoken.84.167.235.191 17:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC) As a matter of fact, Chinese (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90151) is presented the same way as German - i.e. not as a unified language. It is odd to compare the ethnologue numbers for all forms of Chinese to the ones of Standard German only.84.167.235.191 18:02, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The next languages

Here's the data I've got for the next lot of languages (someone already put French in, thanks). At the lower end there may well be some languages missing.


javanese 75.5 telugu 69.7 marathi 68.0 vietnamese 67.4 korean 67 tamil 66 french 64.9m italian 61.5 punjabi 60.8 urdu 60.5

Turkish 50.6 Thai 20.2 + 26 other dialects = 46.2 Gujarati 46.1 Polish 42.7 Kannada 35.3 Farsi 24.3 + Dari 7.6= 31.9 for macro

Drmaik 05:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] French language and Francophonie

Read : http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm !!! For Ethnologue : French is 79.6m. (but actually much more !)

Don't be afraid, Drmaik, French is not an imperialist language !

nevertheless, French remains an international language, spoken in the whole world !

Sincerely 86.214.41.139 08:27, 30 January 2007 (UTC)


Hmm, I wonder which is the better source for the Ethnologue, or what someone else says about the Ethnologue. The ignatius site is quoting the 1999 version, this article the 2005 (which is why the other numbers are different). It would seem you dodn't look at the website I gave when editing your changes. I do think that the current Ethnologue figure is lower than it should be, but this is wikipedia, where we reference data where possible. Hence, revert. Drmaik 13:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks ! Drmaik for last number of French-speaking people (2000) = 77 m. It's interresting to indicate the number for the year 2005 ! Now we have a good information. 213.102.208.32 15:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

No, the latest (2005) data is 64.9m (at http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=fra), but the earlier 2000 (14th edition) data is at http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=FRN, which has a note saying it is superseded, and is 77m. I agree the shrinkage is odd, but this article is here to give a summary of what the Ethnologue actually says. I think noting where figures have changed significantly or giving other well-sourced data in the comments column is fine, but that's where it belongs. Drmaik 05:39, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
  • I think there is a big problem with Ethnologue sources ! If the latest data (2005) is 64.5m !!! How to explain that number compared with 63.5 million inhabitants in France in 2005 !

64.5 - 63.5 = Only 1 million of french-speaking people, out side of France (in the worldwide) ? Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Canada, and other french-speaking countries are put at the dustbin ? It's not serious ! Some statistics are ridiculous ! That does not become credible any more... Poor Wikipedia ! Busway 11:32, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

When I read 51,000,000 first language speakers in France (for 1999), the number is false, it is an error.

  • France : 51,000,000 = 1970
  • France : 58,519,000 = 1999
  • France : 64,102,000 = 2006

Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_France

Sincerely Busway 13:30, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Notes Busway 09:55, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A source of information more close to reality

Weber sources (1997) http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/worldlang.htm

Language : Primary + Secondary = Total

  • 1 Mandarin :1,100,000,000 + 20,000,000 = 1,120,000,000
  • 2 English  : 330,000,000 + 150,000,000 = 480,000,000
  • 3 Spanish  : 300,000,000 + 20,000,000 = 320,000,000
  • 4 Russian  : 160,000,000 + 125,000,000 = 285,000,000
  • 5 French  : 75,000,000 + 190,000,000 = 265,000,000
  • 6 Hindi/Urdu: 250,000,000 = 250,000,000
  • 7 Arabic  : 200,000,000 + 21,000,000 = 221,000,000
  • 8 Portuguese: 160,000,000 + 28,000,000 = 188,000,000
  • 9 Bengali  : 185,000,000 = 185,000,000
  • 10 Japanese : 125,000,000 + 8,000,000 = 133,000,000
  • 11 German : 100,000,000 + 9,000,000 = 109,000,000

The secondary language for French included the studies of French in the whole world and French-speaking natives of the ancient French and Belgian colonies. (Werber sources : 1997)

[edit] Why Russian 2005 statistics ?

Why do you accept the 145 million natives Russian speakers of 2000 and not the 77 million natives French-speaking people of 2000 ? 64.5 million natives French-speaking = certainly not 1996 or 1999 ! Maybe 1960 ? 1970 ? Sincerely Busway 09:06, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

It seems you have read neither my edit comments nor the edits I made.
http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=rus gives 145m for Russian. I will quote:
"117,863,645 in Russia (2000 WCD). Population total all countries: 145,031,551.". (2000) refers to the year of the data that the Ethnologue is using, in the 2005 edition, not the 2000 edition of the ethnologue . Actually, the 2000 version at http://www.ethnologue.com/14/show_language.asp?code=RUS, gives 167m. So it seems you didn't bother to check on the Russian you used for trying to push French up the table.
This article is using data from one source, not multiple, as it is only then that comparisons are meaningful. You have issues with the data in it, fair enough. But picking and choosing whichever suits you is not what Wikipedia requires. Drmaik 09:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Difference btwn List of Languages by number ...

Why are there two articles? The List of languages by number of native speakers seems to follow the same ranks as the Ethnologue list...The only difference I see btwn the two is that "List of languages..." shows umbrella languages as well as dialects. Are these two lists even necessary? If people want the Ethnologue list they can just go to the website

Yes, List of languages by number of native speakers does follow Ethnologue ranking, currently. That was not the case when this article was started, and it might yet change again (there is discussion on that topic at the moment). So I think we should keep this article as is, as it is less prone to change at the moment. Still, some of the Ethnologue figures in that article are incorrect at the moment (e.g. French). Drmaik 08:39, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The figures are wrong?...

The figure for English is hopelessly and obviously wrong and far too low, basic arithmetic shows that. The figure for Hindi is also ridiculously low. And does this include people (notably in India) who grow up speaking more than one language, ie they are multiple native speakers? I'd put a long post here previous about how this page was misconceived, and we should look at the 'most spoken' languages, but I see there is a seperate record for that anyway. Tagblatter 01:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

good luck: I'm not sure how you'd find comparable figures from reliable sources. It sounds rather like original research to me, which isn't what wikipedia does. Drmaik 05:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wu Wu?

what about Wu Chinese? Ethnologue (1984!) has 77 million, which would make it nr. 11. --dab (𒁳) 17:23, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

on this list macrolanguages are counted together, so Wu is included in Chinese... Sorry for the late reply. Drmaik 06:18, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Omissions from country lists?

Surely Chinese languages are spoken by more than 5% of the population in Malaysia and Singapore. AnonMoos 21:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

quite right. changed. Drmaik 06:21, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indonesian Language

I would like to make suggestion to update the data for 'Javanese' language used in Indonesia. In Indonesia, 'Javanese' is only a local language, and the official language is 'Indonesian'. Right now, Indonesia has the population of over 234 million people (see: Indonesia). Can this make Indonesian language become number 4 in terms of 'most spoken languages'?

Thx. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.116.168.156 (talk) 02:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree to this, however I am unable to find accurate data. You are right, Indonesian is much more widely spoken than Javanese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hamster X (talk • contribs) 12:40, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Russian:

Russian is spoken by 285, 000, 000 people in total, and is the 4th not 8th most widely spoken language in the world:

[1]

'if you add the secondary speaker populations to the primary speaker populations, you get the following (and I believe more accurate) list: (number of speakers in parentheses) Mandarin Chinese (1.12 billion) English (480 million) Spanish (320 million) Russian (285 million) French (265 million) Hindi/Urdu (250 million) Arabic (221 million) Portuguese (188 million) Bengali (185 million) Japanese (133 million) German (109 million)'

This site lists the number at 275, 000, 000 and 5th in the World [2]

Also, according to your own article, the population of the Commonwealth of Independent States, aka most of the former USSR as 277,983,490 in 2007. I can guarrantee you that the majority of these people speak Russki.

In any case, a lot more then just 145, 000, 000 people speak Russian (I know that this number was based simply on Russia`s current population, and that`s wrong, because millions of people, myself included, outside of Russia speak Russian, not only ethnic Russians either, millions of people, Russians, Ukrainians, Armenians, Georgians, Azeris, Uzbeks, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians, Belorussians, Moldovans, Kazakhs, and many others :)

List of countries where Russian is spoken by a large portion of the population

Majority language:
Russia
Belarus (trust me, my uncle is from Gomel)
?Transnistria?
?Abkhasia?
?South Ossetia?

Popular (spoken by many people though not by majority of population): Ukraine
Moldova
Latvia
Lithuania
Estonia
Armenia
Georgia
Azerbaijan
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Tajikistan
Turkmenistan
Bulgaria (Many Bulgarians speak almost perfect Russki! I didn't know before I went to Sofia for a vacation in 1996. It goes back to the Soviet/Warsaw Pact period, it seems... Actually, Philipp Kirkorov, a popular singer in Russia, is ethnically Bulgarian, now that I think about it...)
Israel (Have you been to Tel-Aviv? Every third person there speaks Russian)

Spoken in large immigrant communities: USA
Germany
UK
France
and other places...

--SergeiXXX (talk) 04:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

unfortunately this and subsequent edits to the artcile have not paid attention to what this article is: a compilation of what the ethnologue states, talking of first language speakers, and not WP:OR Drmaik (talk) 19:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
User Drmaik removed Armenia and Tajikistan from the Russian section (my edit), which I have reversed. These 2 countries are listed in the Ethnologue and indeed have a lot of Russian speakers, either as a 2nd language (majority) or as a 1st language. In fact, Russian is more popular and/or known better in these 2 countries than Baltic countries or in Israel. --Atitarev (talk) 23:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed them because they don't meet the 5% criterion according to the Ethnologue, which is the criterion for all other langauges. So I'll remove them again. Drmaik (talk) 22:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Armenia or Tajikistan may have a small number of native Russian but the local population is quite fluent, it's safe to say, at least 40% are fluent in Russian. Whether you think it's positive or negative, all the ex-USSR republics are heavily russified. What is the source you are using and why so stubbornly anti-Russian? --Atitarev (talk) 22:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
the source? the one I've already mentioned, and which is in the title of the article itself: ethnologue. Fluency in second langauges is irrelevant for this article: there is one that does that, mentioned at List of languages by number of native speakers in the see also section, I think. Drmaik (talk) 22:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)



[edit] Mutually Intelligible:

Chinese (#1) includes languages such as Mandarin and Cantonese which are not mutually intelligible. However, Urdu and Hindi are separated even though they are mutually intelligible. The justification given is that they use different scripts. But, I don't think that the scripts argument is enough to keep Cantonese and Mandarin together. After all, English uses the same characters as Spanish, but they are obviously distinct languages. Chinese should be separated by mutual intelligibility.


[edit] Persian (Farsi)

Persian is spoken by 72 Million in Iran (Persia), Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and the Persian Gulf states. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farsi

Seems to be an ommission from the list ?202.134.248.125 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 07:40, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese

I have yet to meet someone from Brazil (pop. 180M), Portugal (pop. 11M) or Angola (pop 16M) who doesn't speak Portuguese. The notion that only 1% of Angola's population speaks Portuguese is ridiculous. Most angolans are bilingual, but they all learn Portuguese, and it's the main language used in business, higher education, books, TV, radio, etc.. Then there's Mozambique, Goa, Guiné-Bissau, São Tomé e Príncipe, Cabo Verde, Timor and Macau, plus significant Portuguese-speaking communities in France, Venezuela, Luxembourg and the USA. Even adding just Portuguese and Brazilian natives, the total is clearly higher than the value listed in this page (which probably wasn't even accurate 10 years ago, let alone today). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.181.0.194 (talk) 21:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)


I agree: Angola as more than 10 million inhabitants and the vast majority speak portuguese as a 1st language!! Mozambique is in a lesser extent but still many milions than more than the reported 30 thousand. Cabo VErde is a Portuguese offical language country as well with all national television broadcasting channels trasnmiting in portuguese. This article is a bad reference of the standards I am used to see in Wikipedia. The Ethnologue is a poor reference and damages the reliability of wikipedia for searching for sensible factual knowledge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.234.38.205 (talk) 13:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)