Talk:Ethnic nationalism

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Contents 1 Ethnic nationalism 2 Nationalism 3 Non-ethnic nationalism? 4 Expand, don't merge 5 Anthony Smith 6 Image of Irish flag in Derry 6.1 "Ireland a Nation, Irish and Free" 7 Why is the founder of modern Zionism shown? 8 White nationalism and deletion of images 9 Does Ulster Loyalism count?

[edit] Ethnic nationalism

Given this sentence,

Ethnic nationalism is often simply referred to as "nationalism".

the article should provide the contrasts (i.e. what are non-ethnic nationalisms?). Indeed, I had supposed that a "nation" is merely an ethnic group that claims the right to statehood, or a state that legitimizes itself through ethnic identity.

There is a lot more recent scholarship besides Herder and I would expect an encyclopedia article to discuss Gellner, Anderson, and perhaps Suny and others... SR

The article in the current form does not add anyhting to the main article on nationalism. Everything it mentions is said there, every link is there too. If it is not expanded, it would be better to redirect back ot the main article.Ruzmanci 12:17, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The distinction between ethnic nationalism and other forms is not very clear cut. There are a number of ways that nationalism is occasionally divided into subcatagories ("demotic nationalism" and "restorative nationalism" are used by E.K. Francis) but it is not clear that there is any one definition. Unless there is a scholarly consensus (and there is not) this should be discussed as part of nationalism. --Goodoldpolonius2 02:58, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nationalism

it would seem to make sense that ethnic nationalism woulde be facet to an article on Nationalism generally, however if only ethnic nationalism existed as an article than that would make sense, since it doesn't it ought be merged with Nationalisim.

[edit] Non-ethnic nationalism?

As the standard for nation/nationalism is actually the ethnic nation/nationalism, maybe this article should disappear and another one be written on the particularities of non-ethnic sub-ethnic and supra-ethnic nationalism if such thing exists.

Examples of non-ethnic nations (with their nationalist ideology) are basically those of multiethnic states whose populations, despite their ethnic diversity consider themselves willingly part of the same nation. The most typical example is Switzerland, where 4 ethnicities willingly share the same nationality. Other less clear examples are those of many post-colonial states, specially in Africa, but also in America and Asia, made up of many ethnicities and pieces of ethniciticities and sometimes willingly considering themselves also part of the same nation. These all would be supra-ethnic nations (and nation-states as well). Arab nations divided by history or some micro-sates as Andorra could be examples of sub-ethnical nationalism. Therefore we can surely find an Egyptian or Syrian nationalism despite those nations belonging to the same Arab ethnicity. Furthermore in the Arab case I can think of a couple of sub-ethnic nationalism without state to support it: Palestine and Western Sahara. Austrian nationalism would be another example of sub-ethnic nationalism, as everybody acknowledges that Austrians are ethnically Germans.

--Sugaar 12:43, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Expand, don't merge

I don't think this article should be merged with Nationalism. Nationalism encompases many variations, of which ethnic nationalism is only one. As an example, the move to separate Pakistan from India was a case of nationalism, but it was religious rather than ethnic in motivation. On the other hand, the independence of Bangladesh from Pakistan was ethnically driven.

Ethnic nationalism is related to (but not limited to) political ideologies like Welsh nationalism, Zionism, the Palestinian cause, and also extremist movements like Apartheid and Nazism. I believe there is enough to expand this stub into a full-length article (which I will do when I have time, if nobody else beats me to it). Merging it with Nationalism would mean creating a monstrously long article once this section is expanded. David Cannon 01:54, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

David, I have a few concerns about your proposal. First, there is the practical issue that the current article does not exist in the form you envision, and the earlier consensus was to merge the existing article. You should feel free to create your full-length article, but until it exists, this should still be a redirect, not an inadequate placeholder.

Second, as far as I can tell, ethnic nationlism is standard nationalism, that is, a nation or volk or even religion is at least partially an ethnicity, and therefore this is tautological, especially given that individuals have many ethnic identites (addressing Sugaar's point above). That is, one can experience both Egyptian and Arab nationalism, or American and Italian nationalism, or whatever. Similar to this objection is a lack of support for the definition of ethnic nationalism in the academic community, there are a number of ways that nationalism is occasionally divided into subcatagories ("demotic nationalism" and "restorative nationalism" are used by E.K. Francis) but it is not clear that there is any one scholarly definition to rely on here that includes ethnic nationlism.

--Goodoldpolonius2 01:56, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

"ethnic nationalism" is just a tautology. natio is the very *translation* of ethnos. It is pointless to keep this separate from nationalism. Of course there can be both Egyptian and Pan-Arabic nationalism. This simply means that some envisage "Egyptians" as an ethnicity, while others envisage "Arabs" (Arabic speakers) as an ethnicity. You cannot be a nationalist of anything unless you postulate the precence of an ethnicity. You could even say that nationalism constructs an ethnicity. That's for ethnicity or ethnogenesis to explore, the fact remains that this title is tautological. Religion is, obviously, closely connected to ethnicity and nationalism. Religion is nature's way of telling people with which group they belong, and whom they should beat with pointy sticks. dab (ᛏ) 19:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anthony Smith

I believe the Anthony Smith referred to in this article is a professor of Political Science at Tufts University, not a British adventurer and television host. I think the link directs to the wrong Anthony Smith. Could someone please check on this?

The article does link to the wrong Anthony Smith, but the one that you've suggested isn't the right person either. Anthony D. Smith, Professor Emeritus at the London School of Economics, and author of books such as The Ethnic Origins of Nations and National Identity, is likely the person that the previous editor had in mind. I'll remove the link (though, in my opinion, the entire article should be re-written). - SJLARIN 23:59, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image of Irish flag in Derry

What does this image of a dirty wall in Derry in 1986, with a painting of the Irish flag, tell anyone about ethnic nationalism?Paul111 12:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Ireland a Nation, Irish and Free"

If that ain't ethnic nationalism, I dunno what is.

It could just as easily imply cultural nationalism, and it probably does, see Irish nationalism.Paul111 12:09, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why is the founder of modern Zionism shown?

Isn't this Religious nationalism, istead? Yes, I know "Jewish" is used an as ethnic quailifer too, but their is a few Jewish ethnicities.--Steven X 09:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

It is most funny to see that the chosen photos represent a Jew and a Black man. White don't support ethnic nationalists, do they? Tazmaniacs

...and Hitler. Let's at least attempt to keep the Reductio ad Hitlerum out of this article. <<-armon->> 03:25, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] White nationalism and deletion of images

One user has repeatedly removed the images from the article. I really cannot see, what he objects to.

He also removed the link to White nationalism from the See also section, claming it to be POV because "white" is not an ethnicity. I have restored the link:

• The article does not present the POV that white nationalism is ethnic nationalism, it merely list it as an related concept, and a potential candidate to be integrated into the main text. One can in fact imagine a text saying:

“

Ethnic nationalism differes from white nationalism and other color based nationalisms in the that ethnicity, instead of race is...

”

• It can well be argued that white nationalism is in fact ethnic nationalism, as according to the article, this is an American movement where European Americans see themselves as an ethnicity or even an nation.

-- Petri Krohn 03:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem with using the picture of Hitler on this page is that it is an obvious attempt to slyly equate the other people with Hitler; naturally enough, a Jew is chosen, per the current meme that Zionism is the same as Nazism. However, this really won't do; I, like Armon, invoke Godwin's law. Pick some other ethnicity to smear. Here are two options to mull over: Eamon de Valera and Yasser Arafat. Feel free to choose either or both.

Regarding "white nationalism" being an "ethnic nationalism", as I've already pointed out on Talk:White nationalism, "white" is not an ethnicity, and the sources in that article say as much. "For most Americans, “whiteness” is still a fairly artificial identity; people tend to be far more conscious of religious or ethnic background."[1] Ethnicity is clearly seen as something different from "whiteness".Jayjg ^(talk) 03:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Eamon de Valera and Yasser Arafat would indeed be good candidates; theirs were ethnic nationalism. Ethnic nationalism is a widely used term in political theory to talk about the family of nationalisms that focus on common descent, common kinship, common blood and common culture - in contrast to civic nationalism, which focuses on consent, simple belonging to a nation-state. In this definition, it doesn't matter whether whites or Jews or whoever are "really" an ethnicity. BobFromBrockley 12:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Am happy with latest version that has Hitler, Herzl, Arafat, X, and not De Valera. De Valera is less well known, and it is also possible to argue that his version of Irish nationalism was more civic and less ethnic than most Irish nationalists. BobFromBrockley 10:09, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

On the gallery members. Remember, this is a wikipedia article about something very specific, ethnic nationalism, which has a particular definition in the academic literature, and is not about any old nationalism. The classical scholarly discussions of ethnic nationalism (as opposed to civic nationalism) tend to focus on nineteenth century romantic nationalism, especially in Germany, people like Johann Gottlieb Fichte, and the movements for nationhood in the multinational empires of central and eastern Europe at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries, e.g. Jozef Pilsudski. Zionism came out of this milieu, but Herzl's Zionism was the least ethnic and most civic of Zionisms - he was not that interested in Jewish culture, Jewish langauge, Jewish blood, but rather in a concrete solution to "the Jewish question" in Europe. A better example of a Zionist ethnic nationalist would probably be Ahad Ha-am (although, as he did not advocate statehood, he'd be problematic) or perhaps Vladimir Jabotinsky. Similarly, Irish nationalism comes out of this milieu, but De Valera (and I don't know much about him) was one of the most civic of Irish nationalists. Within black nationalism, Malcolm X is not the best example either of ethnic nationalism; I would opt for Marcus Garvey, who was deeply influenced by European ethnic nationalism (and Zionism). In terms of Arab nationalism, Nasser is a good example - better than Arafat, as one could argue that earlier Palestinian nationalism was ethnically open, inclusive of both Christians and Jews, and even of the Druze, so is a controversial case. Hitler is a good example, I think, as no-one would question that Nazism is a form of ethnic nationalism. I don't think that Connery is a good example, as the Scottish Nationalist Party have explicity put forward an ethnically inclusive, civic definition of Scottishness. A better example would be a representative of Hindutva, e.g. Vinayak Damodar Savarkar, as Hindutva came right out of the 19th/20th century European ethnic nationalist worldview. So, my nominations for the gallery would be: Johann Gottlieb Fichte, Jozef Pilsudski, Marcus Garvey, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Vinayak Damodar Savarkar. BobFromBrockley 15:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Just noticed that there are images I hadn't seen. Jean Sibelius is an excellent example, for reasons clear in the caption. Ziaur Rahman is a very bad example, as religion (Islam) is more important for BNP than nationality. I don't think Kwame Nkrumah is a good example: his nationalism was very cosmopolitan and inclusive. Garvey would be a better Pan-Africanist. I don't know enough about the others. I think a good standard for inclusion in the gallery would be: could you provide an authoritative citation describing them as an ethnic nationalist. But it would also be good not to include questionable cases as illustrations of ethnic nationalism (they could be discussed in the text), so a second standard would be few (ideally no) citations saying they are not an ethnic nationalist. BobFromBrockley 15:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think Ho Chi Minh counts as an ethnic nationalist - Marxist national liberation movements were not ethnically-based. Filiberto Ojeda Ríos I don't know enough about, but I doubt that he would count as Puerto Rican independence is not an ethnicly-based project. Slobodan Milošević is a good example though. My suggestion: move this gallery to the Nationalism page, as a fair amount of work has gone into it. Then drastically trim the version here to remove all dubious cases, as per my suggestions above. Does no-one else have a view on this? BobFromBrockley 14:41, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Please stop this back and forth war and actually make a case for inclusion of exclusion on this talk page. Otherwise this will need to go to some sort of mediation. I don't care one way or the other about whether there is a gallery, but it must only include people who can uncontroversially be described as ethnic nationalists - i.e. not Ziaur Rahman, not Yasser Arafat, not Malcolm X, not Herzl, not De Valera. BobFromBrockley 10:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Does Ulster Loyalism count?

Since the ideology of Ulster Loyalism, unlike Ulster Unionism is centered around Protestant identity, the history of Ulster's Protestant settlers, and most importantly opposition towards any sort of unification or even association with the rest of Ireland, Ulster Loyalism could be described as a form of ethnic nationalism couldn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadianpunk77 (talk • contribs) 19:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)