Talk:Estophilia

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This article was nominated for deletion on July 22, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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Contents 1 Newspaper's name 1.1 Primacy 2 Folklore 3 Estophilia? 4 almost 100 years later

[edit] Newspaper's name

The fully spelt name from the image is 'Ramato Kohto lubbaga Tarto maa rahwa Näddali-Leht', with the two last words in BIG LETTERS. This name's full translation is 'Book court sanctioned Tartu countryside people's weekly newspaper', with the word order preseved. AFAIK, the literature usually refers to this newspaper as 'Maa rahva Näddali-Leht', or 'Maarahva Nädalaleht', which translates into 'Countryside People's Weekly' or 'Peasant's Weekly'. 'Maarahvas' is also significantly a pre-nation euphemism for ethnic Estonians, so it could also be translated as 'Estonians' Weekly'. However, it should be pointed out that all of these names require some interpretation. Using the full name is a bad option; while the law of the then-ruling Russian Empire required mentioning the censor's sanction, it was never used to refer to the newspaper; translating only the BIG LETTERS is another bad option, as the result, 'Weekly Newspaper', is rather ambiguous.

Finally, Estonian orthography was not stable at the time, and various dialects held considerable sway. (Remember that the Great Language Unifier, trade, between peasants was geographically rather limited.) The variant spelling of 'Näddala-Leht' is most likely a reference from its contemporary literature, based on slightly different pronounciation. Digwuren 02:08, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

It appears I mixed up two distinct publications. This one is commonly referred to as 'Tarto maa rahva Näddali-Leht', or 'Tartu Peasant's Weekly'. There was another newspaper 'Maarahva Näddala-Leht'. I'll add 'Tartu' to this article for now; proper sourcing will have to wait. Digwuren 04:50, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Yep. The one pictured and the one mentioned next to Otto Wilhelm Masing are distinct newspapers, published more than a decade apart. Digwuren 05:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Partially to clarify this mixup, I started Timeline of early Estonian publications. Digwuren 16:21, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Primacy

An interesting curiosity lies around primacy of Lühike õpetus and the one on the picture. While there's no question the former was published several decades earlier, the latter is the first publication considered unequivocally a newspaper. Opinions regarding the appropriate classification of Lühike õpetus are more diverse; some believe it was a journal, despite of its volumes only having four pages; others believe it was a book that was published in hefts merely because of technical and economical reasons (which was not unheard of even a century and a half later, when Vilde's books were commonly published that way). Thus, various sources consider either one or the other the first Estonian language publication. Digwuren 06:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

This Vilde here is Eduard Vilde. To the best of my knowledge, there's no relation to Peter Ernst Wilde nor Oscar Wilde. (However, there's a pub in Tartu that deliberately compares Eduard Vilde to Oscar Wilde. I think I have photos of it, somewhere, too.) Digwuren 16:40, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Folklore

Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald's Eesti rahva ennemuistsed jutud (Old tales of Estonian people) are considerably more popular than Kalevipoeg. Unfortunately, there does not appear to be an article on them. Interestingly, most of the fairy tales Kreutzwald collected -- most indicatively, the ones featuring a version of Reynard the Fox -- are not actually indigenous to Estonia but are distillations of various European stories. For really indigenous (well, at least, half a millennium older) stories, one would need to go to Matthias Johann Eisen's work. Digwuren 04:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

A relevant EEVA link: [1]. Digwuren 05:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that link, an excellent site. On a related topic, is there an online repository of old Estonian folksongs? Could folklore have been passed down aurally as song? Martintg 09:06, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, audiorecording technology wasn't really available before late 1800s. Some old folksongs were audiorecorded, some on phonograph but most on 78rpm records, but AFAIK, nobody has yet undertaken a major digitising campaign.

You might want to write to the Estonian Radio (website at [2]); they have comprehensive audio archives, but don't yet do large-scale digitising. If you're lucky, you might be able to convince them to find something that has been digitised, or even get them digitise some material anew.

The lyrics, however, were collected. The largest such collection is that of Matthias Johann Eisen and his stipendiaries. The original collection of manuscripts does not appear to be available online, but Eisen's material has repeatedly been collected into printed books; you might be able to get a copy of one. Digwuren 16:20, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

As an alternative, you might have thought of sheet music. Alas, my understanding is that this form of melody recording was not done on Estonian territory to any significant degree, either. Some (nearly) modern composers, however, have drawn from old melodies; I think Gustav Ernesaks is one of those. If you're interested, I can scan pages from Soviet-time high school music textbooks that, for quite random reasons, I happen to have handy.

Estonian medieval music societies, however, generally play German baroque and earlier music rather than centuries-old native melodies. The latter probably have not been preserved in any way. Digwuren 16:31, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Estophilia?

..sounds strange I must say. haven't heard that it's been used that much. So why don't we rename the article to something whats' much more commonly in use like: Estophile? There are much more sources as well. Google books gives me 2 pages of books at the time when "Estophilia" returns 2 books.--Termer 06:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW This article was nominated for deletion on July 22, 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus,... is that a some kind of practical joke up there?--Termer 07:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

It is unfortunately no joke, there was an attempt to delete the article by poeple ignorant of Estonian history. It is generally agreed that "Estophile" refers to the individual while "Estophilia" refers to the activities and ideas of Estophiles. Martintg 19:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Martintg "Estophilia" refers to the activities and ideas of Estophiles should be self explanatory anyway. the point was that commonly, usually the word Estophilia has not been used that much unlike Estophile. There is a period in Estonian history called "Estophile period", not "the period of Estophilia" for ex. Also, Encyclopedia Britannica referrers to the Estophile ideas, not to "the ideas of Estophilia". The bottom line: the title Estophile would be much closer to conventional knowledge about the subject than Estophilia, even though technically it's not wrong. Therefore I'd rename the article and take it from there, something like: Estophile ideas ref to people etc.--Termer 09:21, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is consensus for a rename, some people will contest it. Encyclopedia Britannica isn't the only source. Estonia's Encyclopedia Estonica refers to it as "Estophilia". See reference 5 in the article "The Baltic Landesstaat: Emergence of national consciousness and Estophilia". Martintg 09:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Thats fine Martintg, not a big deal. it was just a suggestion, not an obsession.--Termer 16:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I would say that the movement as a sum constitutes a more notable part of Estonia's history, and accordingly, should be a focus of the article. Besides, the movement is relatively easy to source, but many individual Estophiles' contributions have been destroyed in fires, wars, and passage of time. Digwuren 18:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I propose moving the article to Estophile movement. -- Petri Krohn 21:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I oppose this proposal as it would unnecessarily narrow the scope of the article. Martintg 22:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I oppose this proposal, based on concerns outlined above. Digwuren 22:47, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, the historic Estophile movement is definitely worth having its own separate article. Regarding the article here, I'm not that sure if the modern Tuglas Society and individual estophiles around the world all together would classify as a movement by itself. Although I don't object the idea based on Petri Krohn suggestion, a foundation of a modern Estophile Movement and once that's happened, it can have its own entrance on WP.--Termer 18:25, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

I thought you said it wasn't an obsession? :) That is why we have the article Estophilia, to discuss the activities and ideas of Estophiles, whether it is the historical Estophile Movement or modern Estophiles and the Turglas Society. I think articles should only be split if they get too big. Martintg 21:02, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Martintg for making it very clear what I had just said...just in case anybody didn't get it yet or is not too familiar with sarcastic humor, therefore might have misunderstood me. Regarding splitting, never had that idea. Just mentioned that the historic Estophile movement deserves an article on its own. And not to worry, the current general article about Estophiles would get too big once the whole story of the enlightenment era in Estonia is going to be written for WP.--Termer 23:24, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] almost 100 years later

Hi Martintg, I can see your point but ..100 years seems to be misleading to me. even though the Estophile era started in the 50-s, the highpoint was still in the beginning of the 19th century that lead to the Estonian national awakening 50 years later. therefor I'd rephrase this in case the "50 years later" was considered factually incorrect. So is the 100 years later it seems to me. Since it was a process, not anything that a finger could be put on really I think.--Termer 06:47, 8 September 2007 (UTC)